Bobby Holik

[Triumph]

Last night Holik scored a goal off his face to give him 2 goals for the year.

I think he's played terrible - and while the board complains about Pandolfo, rightfully so, they've got another non-contributing zero in #16.

Here's Holik's numbers:

24 games, 2 goals, 3 assists, 5 points, 0 +/-, 22 PIM, 26 shots on goal, 7.7% shooting percentage, 10:17 TOI, 58.7% faceoffs won.

While Holik was playing incredibly physical after he came back from finger surgery, either the constant penalties for interference or the fact that he's 37 have stopped him from doing so in recent games. The Holik of old would get teams upset at him and get them to take penalties against him - I don't think this is true anymore. Holik was near the bottom of the league in penalty plus/minus last year Penalty Plus/Minus 2007-08 - only 3 forwards, Neil, Ivanans, and Peca were worse - and this year, I suspect it would be even worse had he not gotten injured.

Holik has got to get better - even in his best days he was a below-average passer, so he brings his line down by just charging the puck at the net, and now he's only getting 1 shot on goal per game, and naturally since his instinct is to shoot his career shooting percentage is terrible. If he maintains this pace, his season will look something like:

64 games, 5 goals, 8 assists, 13 points, 60 PIMs, 68 shots on goal.

which is not what New Jersey signed up for.

[CRASHER]

Depends on the physical play and the faceoffs end up being too

he's never scored a ton anyway and now he plays zero special teams... if he plays nasty (and not to mention when mike rupp is the top scorer on your line it tells ya something about them

it's not always about goals and assits

[Don]

Really? What did we sign on for?

I just re-read the thread where we signed him and many, if not most, thought this was throwing money away. "Most expensive 4th line in hockey" is repeated throughout.

Most of us chalked this up as a mistake signing from day one. So I don't know what else we were to expect.

Let's hope Shannahan has more in the tank than Holik. I very much doubt it.

There are unmet expectations for Pandolfo. Whereas we expected Holik to be a shadow of his former self.

[Cowutopia]

Isn't this what we expected to get from him?

[Triumph]

I expected more goals, more shots on goal, more assists, and less penalties. last season he had 1.71 shots per game. granted, he got 15 minutes of ice time as opposed to 10, but it was claimed by lou and sutter that 10 minutes would 'keep him fresher'.

I guess he might be valuable in the playoffs, but he just takes too many penalties. He is 4th on the team in minor penalties and has played barely more than half the games of the rest of the other team. I understood this as a 'playoff signing', but he just looks bad now - I hate to think what he will be like in April.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Triumph

[Darwindog]

I expected intangibles like veteran leadership...but no significant quantifiable contribution.

Holik and Madden are leaders -- from where I sit they seem to have something to say, they have valuable insights that may get in their own way but seem to help others.

All the Devils are pretty insightful and vocal so it's hard to make calls as carelessly as I am -- but Pando, as Brylin before him, is more or less a follower. I know we don't expect production per se from Pando and I'm not advocating dumping him --- I just say he's dragging down Madden. IMO it's time to pair Madden with someone who can learn from his mentorship. This will help Madden cope with his changing role and see his own value more clearly. You don't want to waste a guy like Madden - he's a guy who a new team WILL put in a useful Vet role and he will flourish there... Man, I'm just stating the obvious... Pando is not a kid in need of a mentor and that is what Madden needs right now - to be a mentor to a line mate.

Holik -- -is Holik is Holik. I like h im here and I'm only disappointed that he was injured and I would like to see him be a little more pesty - I kind of miss what's going on with him on the ice... he's just there. So I see your point Tri - but I don't think it's numbers that will support your claim - it's that he's not funny. If you're not thinking "Doh! Did Bobby just do/say that?' then he's not doing his job.

[Elias26]

He is playing up to expectations. This is exactly the roll he was signed for.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

Its what i expected.

His numbers arn't great , but he was brought in for more than that.

He gives the team another voice in the locker room, he is an influence on players younger players like Clarkson and Zajac, his facoffs are usefull in key situations, and till recently he has increased the physical play.

He's still getting to much $$$$ but considering this is probably his last year, and its only for a year its no big deal.

What were your expectations for Holik this year Tri???

[SatansDevils]

Don't have a problem with Holik as that is what Lou signed him for. He was not back here in new Jersey to score goals.

If anything, its Madden, Pandolfo, Langenbrunner and Gionta that are not playing up to their expectations. They should be playing better and producing more on the score sheet.

[Triumph]

I expected a line something like this: 80 games, 10 goals, 10 assists, 20 points, 60 PIMs. It's not like he has played with bad players - pretty much every game he has either played with Brian Rolston or Dainius Zubrus. It's just that he brings down every line he is on because he is only mildly concerned with where the puck is in the offensive zone.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

I expected a line something like this: 80 games, 10 goals, 10 assists, 20 points, 60 PIMs. It's not like he has played with bad players - pretty much every game he has either played with Brian Rolston or Dainius Zubrus. It's just that he brings down every line he is on because he is only mildly concerned with where the puck is in the offensive zone.

Well if he continues on his current pace with no more injuries he will be good for about 6 goals 9 assists and 15 points and about 70 PIM's, so thats pretty close to your expectation considering he has missed some games.

If you had asked me befor the season had started i would have said 5 goals 8 assists and 60 PIM's.

So i think he playing pretty much as expected

[ALBDEVSFAN]

Is it just me or does Holik play significantly less physical when there is a heavyweight on the other team. the last 2 game Holik has seemed less "nasty" with Parros and Ivannas lurking. I was also very suprised to learn that Parros has a decent Offensive game. Also Mike Rupp is really going after heavies in this road trip. Hes a top Heavyweight, I would have liked him to step up to Ivannas after he was getting rowdy. I looks like he just ain't comfortable with the Wet's elite enforcers but every time he fights Orr he pummels him. Just a thought.

[Devils731]

I haven't had a big problem with Holik's play. He's still winning draws which is nice. I think putting him and Madden together on a line would benefit all parties involved. It'd be a 4th line totally dedicated to defense and have a physical center who can win draws with a decent backup at taking draws as well.

[CRASHER]

I haven't had a big problem with Holik's play. He's still winning draws which is nice. I think putting him and Madden together on a line would benefit all parties involved. It'd be a 4th line totally dedicated to defense and have a physical center who can win draws with a decent backup at taking draws as well.

problem is you're wasting one of our two best faceoff men then

Holik and Pando makes more sense, would be nice to put Rupp there since he can skate (he does little offensively, but that's not the point there)

[Devils731]

problem is you're wasting one of our two best faceoff men then

Holik and Pando makes more sense, would be nice to put Rupp there since he can skate (he does little offensively, but that's not the point there)

I'm much more concerned about getting lines playing well 5 on 5 than putting a faceoff guy on a line he can't keep up with. Neither Madden nor Holik look to have the offensive skills this season to play with the third line wingers when Shanny starts.

Does winning a faceoff count for so much if you're just going to turn the puck over 5 seconds later anyway because you can't keep control of it? Aren't defensive draws way more important to a team than any other? So I puropsely want to put one good and one decent faceoff guy together so Holik can be as aggressive as he wants on draws knowing Madden isn't a total loss at faceoffs. BTW, Madden is the 3rd best centerman on draws for the team at a little over 51.5% so I wouldn't sweat his faceoff prowess in almost any case anyway.

I would think, in what I describing, Rupp/Holik/Madden all play together. They can all play moderately well defensively, Madden can play physical enough that all 3 guys pester people along the boards, and I'm not so worried about their offense not being great because I've got 3 other lines with decent offensive chips on them allowing the specialized defensive 4th line.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Devils731

[NJayDevil]

Holik > Pando in all aspects (physically, faceoffs, salary, humor, and usability). The only thing Pando has over Holik is he's a penalty killer, but with a 19th ranked PK he's thus useless.

PANDOLFO IS A HUGE WASTE OF TIME, SPACE AND MONEY. And to a degree so is Madden now. They are just useless to this team now. They are great guys, but you can't keep every great guy that plays for the team.

[Devils731]

Pando, Holik, and Madden have all been wastes in many ways this season. Typing in caps doesn't change that. BTW, you missed defensive positioning, speed, stick speed, avoiding penalties, and purposefully ignored the PK part in your "all aspects" review of Pando and Holik.

[ALBDEVSFAN]

I have been very impressed with clarkson, I'd hate to see him go to Toronto. He has 16 pts as a 3rd/4th liner. He's been scoring on the PP. He hits, Fights, agitates, scores. I think he has been great for this team. I like the Rolston/Clarkson combo. Clarkson seems to be scoring the garbage goals near the goal mouth off Rolston's rebounds lately. I would to really keep him great asset to the team.

[Triumph]

yeah i am really curious about the composition of lines when shanahan gets back. i also like the madden-holik idea, faceoffs are really not *that* important.

how's about:

elias-zubrus-gionta

parise-zajac-langenbrunner

shanahan-rolston-clarkson

madden-holik-rupp

my problem, as i've said elsewhere, is that we appear to have all these great wingers and two centers who can't play a lick. throw in the fact that zubrus has been dogsh!t lately and that's 3 centers who are really bringing the team down.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Triumph

[Devils731]

yeah i am really curious about the composition of lines when shanahan gets back. i also like the madden-holik idea, faceoffs are really not *that* important.

how's about:

elias-zubrus-gionta

parise-zajac-langenbrunner

shanahan-rolston-clarkson

madden-holik-rupp

Those were the lines I was thinking of in my head for the as of this moment combination.

[NJayDevil]

Pando, Holik, and Madden have all been wastes in many ways this season. Typing in caps doesn't change that. BTW, you missed defensive positioning, speed, stick speed, avoiding penalties, and purposefully ignored the PK part in your "all aspects" review of Pando and Holik.

Pando and Holik's speed both suck. Stick handling? Both suck (a Madden and Pando 2-on-1 is probably the most uneventful and wasteful 2-on-1 in the entire NHL). However Holik just skated right around Nieder last night in the corner and shrugged his stick and body off with his immense size. Avoiding penalties. Fine Pando's got that one. It's really great to pay someone $4million dollars to just avoid penalties and be totally invisible about there 58 out of the 60 minutes.

Holik adds snarl to a lineup that has lacked it since he left in '02. He provides size up the middle which has been proven to win championships and when his line gets deep into the offensive zone he can not be knocked off the puck.

I write in caps for a reason, to express anger. Pandolfo is worthless to this team nowadays. Sure you might speak of loyalty, but it's impossible to be loyal to everyone. He's far overpaid, and a waste of space out there. Holik at least creates space, and is used in front of the net on a PP from time to time.

A 2.5 million investment for only 2 years vs. a 4 million investment for what was is like 4 years. Imagine what Jay Pandolfo will be in 2 years? A fvcking dinosaur out there....

[Devils731]

I didn't mean stick handling by stick speed, I meant his ability to clog passing lanes with his stick. So as I understand anything Pando does better than Holik isn't important(and they're not as important as goal scoring or offensive creativity) but all of the thing Holik brings are important...also Holik brings negatives with his play that Pando does bring. All in all I'd say Holik is contributing more than Pando to the team but not by very much. Holik and Pando's offensive numbers are very similar and Pando brings his defense and Holik brings his physical play while Pando has been a bad forechecker and Holik takes bad penalties.

[Triumph]

Holik's 'snarl' is going to cost this team a win at least by the end of the year, so I hope he makes up for it in other ways. The only thing Holik has got going for him is that he's an even in +/-.

The only thing right now that makes Holik more valuable than Pandolfo is that Holik is a center and Pandolfo is a winger. Otherwise they have both been similarly unspectacular and a team with a decent minor league system could've replaced either one. Yes, Pandolfo is a solid penalty killer, and yes Holik brings 'snarl' and faceoff-winning ability, but both of these qualities are highly overvalued.

[Risky]

We do have an embarrassment of riches in "old guys who can't score" on this team, but I think Holik is the probably the 4th biggest offender. Rupp is useless. Pandolfo is useless. Clarkson is really useless (I've never hated a Devil on this team quite the way I despise David Clarkson, who I call our "poor man's Matthew Barnaby."). Holik is probably next in line.

Madden is mostly useless but at least has flashes of offensive ability that at least require teams to respect him on a 2 on 1.

This team is scary bad on the offensive depth chart once you reach #15's name. He could probably make my list this year, too.

Thankfully, Parise, Elias and now Zajac are having years to remember. And that guy--what's his name--is coming back into the net soon.

[Darwindog]

Holik/Madden/Rupp could be worth a try just to see -- chemistry could go either way. I don't think it would be the right long term fit for Madden even remotely.

No one is seeing Madden's game clearly at all are they? Why is it always me - a dog - who can see these things?

IMO Holik, Rupp, Pando - they are what they are -- right now Madden needs some tweaking to live up too his full potential. Brylin had to go to Russia, Rafalski had to go to Detroit... Madden has to stay here and be built around a little, not relegated to old slow guy status - he needs to move to get the wheels going and then he hits his stride. If he has to lurch along with Jay or be held back for joy by the likes of Bob... GRRRRRR!!!! I can't stand the waste! Thank goodness Lou has the same frugal bent as I do...and a decent understanding of chemistry - and ability to listen!