Devils Pride 26 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) DR33's post in the OOT thread had got me thinking about a few things. I have said it before and I'll say it again, I think Gelinas would be a pretty good forward. Or at least a rover (7th D, 12th F - back and forth when necessary in game). He can carry the puck into the zone well, and he follows his own dump ins as good as anyone. on the PP - no reason he cannot do that as a forward at even strength. Playing him at forward wouldn't be anything like the hideous experiment of playing Corrente at forward (or defense for that matter). It's probably not a good idea to dick him around but I think if he's not improved mid way through next year, switch him to forward. A fourth liner with that kind of value to the PP would be pretty damn efficient. 27 points including 17 on the PP is pretty damn goodHowever you also have to consider Lou/staff around. Would they be alright with a coach pulling the plug on a guy you drafted in round 2 as a defensemen? Stubbornness may cloud judgement. Another thing to consider is there is an abundance of defensemen already which is only going to get worse. Hey, what a good problem to have though. Plus, wasn't he a converted forward in juniors anyway? I thought I remember reading that. Entirely different, but I'm sure he has some knowledge of the position. Edited April 3, 2014 by Devils Pride 26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 http://njdevs.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=133402 Still no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Holy sh!t I am brain dead forgot about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Yeah, I'll say no again to this - if you shift Gelinas to forward, you lose his slapshot and some of his ability to knife through the neutral zone with the puck. Gelinas is fast but not quick, an attribute more suited to a defenseman than a forward. And yea he goes in on the forecheck but he's real bad at it, he'd have to improve significantly to be a factor there. Lastly the 4th line player/PP specialist isn't really a player who sticks in the NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I believe this situation is so unique compared to other attempts at 4th line PP guys. I think a lot of it has to do with lack of innovation. Would you rather roll 5 defense with Gelinas sitting most the game (as had happened) or have him in for say Carter on the fourth line, with a full D corps and getting his PP time as well? Plus, you have the luxury of playing him at D in a pinch. Gelinas time on PP and 4v4 is a greater value than all of Carter's even strength minutes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessus Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Keep in mind Gelinas is a rookie. Just because he isn't playing very many ES minutes this season does not mean those minutes will continue to be limited moving forward. A couple years down the road, when Gelinas has developed his defensive game better, he won't be sitting as much. 4th line players won't be very hard to find for the Devils, so I don't think converting Gelinas to a forward is a smart move in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Keep in mind Gelinas is a rookie. Just because he isn't playing very many ES minutes this season does not mean those minutes will continue to be limited moving forward. A couple years down the road, when Gelinas has developed his defensive game better, he won't be sitting as much. 4th line players won't be very hard to find for the Devils, so I don't think converting Gelinas to a forward is a smart move in the long run. It's certainly not ideal. As I stated in the OP, that I would hesitate to do it now. It would become an issue if we get halfway through next season, Gelinas is playing bad defensively, but making a big difference on the PP. What I'm trying to get at, is what if Gelinas gets to the point where all the good he does for the PP is negated by his ES play? If Gelinas is the real deal for the PP but stinks elsewhere, is it worth experimenting with him at forward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 I still am of the opinion that if Gelinas defensive play continues to be a major problem, looking into switching him to wing would not be a bad option. You're not going to see too much in the way of big slap shots during normal even strength play anyhow so losing that on your even strength blue line isn't a major headache. Wingers still get those opportunities off offensive zone faceoffs. It was responsible for a decent number of Sykora and Rolston goals in their careers. My major motivation for starting my version of this thread was that I wanted Gelinas to stay in the lineup for games so he could play powerplay time because I think that his presence there is vital to this team's success. It would also help given that we're relatively weak up front and if done right he does have natural talents that could lend themselves to being an effective power forward. I think part of the problem is the immediate assumption that once a player chooses a position that they become a "natural whatever." Obviously if that were true, Gelinas would still be a forward since that's what he started as. The skills involved in playing a non-goalie hockey position be they defense or forward are absolutely translatable. "Quickness" is a skill that can be improved with agility training and let's be honest, most power forwards struggle with quickness. The guy has speed, size and offensive talent. Those things are useful no matter where you are in the offensive zone. His lack of certain defensive instincts may be minimized by him playing forward. Now on the flip side, if he does improve his defensive play to the point where a coach doesn't need to hesitate to put him out there against a second liner, I have no objection to him going full speed ahead as a defenseman because having a good weapon like that on the blue line during even strength is an enormous asset if it isn't a liability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I still am of the opinion that if Gelinas defensive play continues to be a major problem, looking into switching him to wing would not be a bad option. You're not going to see too much in the way of big slap shots during normal even strength play anyhow so losing that on your even strength blue line isn't a major headache. Wingers still get those opportunities off offensive zone faceoffs. It was responsible for a decent number of Sykora and Rolston goals in their careers. My major motivation for starting my version of this thread was that I wanted Gelinas to stay in the lineup for games so he could play powerplay time because I think that his presence there is vital to this team's success. It would also help given that we're relatively weak up front and if done right he does have natural talents that could lend themselves to being an effective power forward. I think part of the problem is the immediate assumption that once a player chooses a position that they become a "natural whatever." Obviously if that were true, Gelinas would still be a forward since that's what he started as. The skills involved in playing a non-goalie hockey position be they defense or forward are absolutely translatable. "Quickness" is a skill that can be improved with agility training and let's be honest, most power forwards struggle with quickness. The guy has speed, size and offensive talent. Those things are useful no matter where you are in the offensive zone. His lack of certain defensive instincts may be minimized by him playing forward. Now on the flip side, if he does improve his defensive play to the point where a coach doesn't need to hesitate to put him out there against a second liner, I have no objection to him going full speed ahead as a defenseman because having a good weapon like that on the blue line during even strength is an enormous asset if it isn't a liability. Agree totally. It's all about asset management Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) I still am of the opinion that if Gelinas defensive play continues to be a major problem, looking into switching him to wing would not be a bad option. You're not going to see too much in the way of big slap shots during normal even strength play anyhow so losing that on your even strength blue line isn't a major headache. Wingers still get those opportunities off offensive zone faceoffs. It was responsible for a decent number of Sykora and Rolston goals in their careers. My major motivation for starting my version of this thread was that I wanted Gelinas to stay in the lineup for games so he could play powerplay time because I think that his presence there is vital to this team's success. It would also help given that we're relatively weak up front and if done right he does have natural talents that could lend themselves to being an effective power forward. I think part of the problem is the immediate assumption that once a player chooses a position that they become a "natural whatever." Obviously if that were true, Gelinas would still be a forward since that's what he started as. The skills involved in playing a non-goalie hockey position be they defense or forward are absolutely translatable. "Quickness" is a skill that can be improved with agility training and let's be honest, most power forwards struggle with quickness. The guy has speed, size and offensive talent. Those things are useful no matter where you are in the offensive zone. His lack of certain defensive instincts may be minimized by him playing forward. Now on the flip side, if he does improve his defensive play to the point where a coach doesn't need to hesitate to put him out there against a second liner, I have no objection to him going full speed ahead as a defenseman because having a good weapon like that on the blue line during even strength is an enormous asset if it isn't a liability. DeBoer's system and any heavy forecheck/puck control system requires people who can shoot the puck at the point. Gelinas has more shots/60 than anyone on this year's team. It's not just about the big slapshot - Gelinas has a very good release and he has a good wrist shot too. Gelinas's biggest potential skill at 5 on 5 is not his shot, it's his ability to knife through the neutral zone and either lead the rush/get the puck into the zone or be available for drop passes on the rush. I'm not convinced that his decision making in this regard will ever be elite but this is an ability that players like Kurtis Foster do not possess. It's a skill that frankly NJ hasn't really had since Scott Niedermayer. It's a skill that most defensemen don't have and one that's pretty useless as a forward. Edited April 3, 2014 by Triumph 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewarkDevil5 Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 DeBoer's system and any heavy forecheck/puck control system requires people who can shoot the puck at the point. Gelinas has more shots/60 than anyone on this year's team. It's not just about the big slapshot - Gelinas has a very good release and he has a good wrist shot too. Gelinas's biggest potential skill at 5 on 5 is not his shot, it's his ability to knife through the neutral zone and either lead the rush/get the puck into the zone or be available for drop passes on the rush. I'm not convinced that his decision making in this regard will ever be elite but this is an ability that players like Kurtis Foster do not possess. It's a skill that frankly NJ hasn't really had since Scott Niedermayer. It's a skill that most defensemen don't have and one that's pretty useless as a forward. The first part of your post relies on me being sold on DeBoer's system as the long term strategy for this team. I'm not entirely sold on that. I was sold on it at one point but I've started to have my doubts. This second part of your post is more compelling at first, but when you try to say that the skill you're referring to is useless at forward you lose me. Forwards carry the puck through the neutral zone more often than defensemen. There's a reason why there's no label for a "puck moving forward" which is to say that all forwards should be able to be more or less competent at moving the puck through the neutral zone. The distinction is reserved for defensemen because so many of them play the position with a purely sweeper mentality and never really develop that skill. The only part of this that gives me pause is that it would absolutely be nice to have that element on the back end because it aids in the puck movement through the neutral zone to have an additional player adept at it on the ice at a given time, but for you to say that being able to get through the neutral zone with the puck and lead or join a rush isn't a forward skill, then you sir need to take a step back and brush up on your hockey basics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 The first part of your post relies on me being sold on DeBoer's system as the long term strategy for this team. I'm not entirely sold on that. I was sold on it at one point but I've started to have my doubts. This second part of your post is more compelling at first, but when you try to say that the skill you're referring to is useless at forward you lose me. Forwards carry the puck through the neutral zone more often than defensemen. There's a reason why there's no label for a "puck moving forward" which is to say that all forwards should be able to be more or less competent at moving the puck through the neutral zone. The distinction is reserved for defensemen because so many of them play the position with a purely sweeper mentality and never really develop that skill. The only part of this that gives me pause is that it would absolutely be nice to have that element on the back end because it aids in the puck movement through the neutral zone to have an additional player adept at it on the ice at a given time, but for you to say that being able to get through the neutral zone with the puck and lead or join a rush isn't a forward skill, then you sir need to take a step back and brush up on your hockey basics. Gelinas is really good at moving the puck through the neutral zone. What I don't think he's good at is finding passes upon pulling up, knowing when to pass versus shoot, and so forth. Obviously getting through the neutral zone with the puck is a huge skill for forwards, I just don't think Gelinas's particular brand of puck movement is that useful at forward because I don't think he has a forward's decision making ability (and again - the skating thing, I think he's much better with a head of steam out of the D zone that forwards don't often get) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Albert Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 His biggest asset is his shot from the point. Agreed, He needs time to develop his D game. I highly doubt he will play forward ! IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartholomew Hunt Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Gelinas is a big guy but if you watch him play hes really not that strong, he gets muscled off the puck constantly, but thats something that can be fixed with hard work in the offseason. As far as being a foward I dont think it would benefit the team to take his big shot off the point. He gives us better scoring chances from the point than I think he could provide on the wing. I think its smarter and easier to improve his defense than to have him learn a whole new position. Nhl defensemen take a while to become great. He has the size and skill, he just needs to learn from mistakes and become stronger. That will take time. Hes definitely a bright spot on the point for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Honestly with the glut of defensemen coming through our system and his defensive shortcomings that may or may not be fixed, why not use him as trade bait? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I don't want to deal Gelinas because even though I think it's unlikely, he could be a special player. He brings something no one in the Devils organization does. They've got a lot of good D in the system but none of them look to be potentially elite offensive players at the NHL level. Severson, Merrill, Larsson - if these guys make the NHL, they'll be decent to good offensively, but none of them is going to bring what Gelinas brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartholomew Hunt Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Honestly with the glut of defensemen coming through our system and his defensive shortcomings that may or may not be fixed, why not use him as trade bait? Yeah I also thought this in the beginning of the season when he was at the top of his game. I think this is a good idea if you can bring in a foward with equal potential. We have an abundance of defensive prospects and close to no offensive prospects. Gelinas for shinkaruk or lazar is okay with me. Or gelinas for coutorier(sp), although I would imagine philly would want more, and lou wouldnt deal with philly so im wasting my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neb00rs Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Why would I want Gelinas as a forward? Why not sign a halfway decent forward instead? The only skills I like that Gelinas has are his offensive-defensive skills. If you move him to forward, you even kill that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devlin Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I would keep him as is at D...to much time to invest converting him to a forward and I don't feel it would be a high success rate. He needs to fine tune his game and hopefully will be even better. Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Pretty wicked snapper there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hystyk28 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Unfortunately he doesn't skate well enough to play forward. For his size he easily moved off the puck as well.(not good for either spot) In the Mark Howe article he notes how Gelinas seems off balance. He is a work in progress for sure. Hope he has a good work ethic because he is going to need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 DeBoer's system and any heavy forecheck/puck control system requires people who can shoot the puck at the point. Gelinas has more shots/60 than anyone on this year's team. It's not just about the big slapshot - Gelinas has a very good release and he has a good wrist shot too. Gelinas's biggest potential skill at 5 on 5 is not his shot, it's his ability to knife through the neutral zone and either lead the rush/get the puck into the zone or be available for drop passes on the rush. I'm not convinced that his decision making in this regard will ever be elite but this is an ability that players like Kurtis Foster do not possess. It's a skill that frankly NJ hasn't really had since Scott Niedermayer. It's a skill that most defensemen don't have and one that's pretty useless as a forward. Well said. And lets cut the kid a break for his recent defensive play. He's a rookie. There's no reason to think he won't improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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