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#1 LivingThread

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 09:30 PM

If your wanna get some t-shirts printed up ill do it for next to nothing to promotoe the site. I live in bloomfield and am a life long devils fan. you have access to my email if youre interested in getting something going.
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#2 DevilMinder

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 09:47 PM

We tried to do something before and we got lawyered up by the Devils Org. If you can think of a way to work with em, I am sure there would be a market.
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#3 sammyk

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 11:27 PM

They wouldn't even let you do NJDevs.com and the NJDevs logo?
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#4 DevilMinder

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 08:00 AM

They wouldn't let us use the word Devils. I lost the emails but the other part was making money was considered a no-no by them. It was directly from the vice president of NJD.
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#5 sammyk

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 08:22 AM

You should write to Vanderbeek.

Maybe make it non-profit or give the profits to a charity?
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#6 LivingThread

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 11:36 AM

I know all about the lawyers and being sued for this kinda thing. Ive gotten a couple cease and desist letter for various things ive printed. Somethign things i stop printing something ive said piss off. There was a new ruling that really screwed the common man.

Lets say you wanted to make a red shirt with black letters that said "2008-2009 champs". That can now be found inviolation of a teams trademarks. Somehow the courts allowed teams to trade mark colors (in relation to the team). Their claim is people will assume its produced by the team.

Anyway, like im doing with my rally towel....taking it as it comes. The free part really elimiantes any law suit cause there is no profit.

For you guys here at the forums, handing out some shirts and generating site traffic will result in the sale of web advertising. I heled another forum get some tees and nwo they collect $600 a month from each advertising partner. They are a very busy forum tho ... www.ls2.com like #120 on the BigBoards rankings
You can spend some money to make some money. Or like the charities do....donate "this" and recieve a free "this" (thus no taxes).

Anyway, there are was to get the name out there and im willing to help. If youre up for something let me know.
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#7 cupcake23

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 05:50 PM

They wouldn't let us use the word Devils. I lost the emails but the other part was making money was considered a no-no by them. It was directly from the vice president of NJD.


Even if you said you'd donate the money for a cause? My friends started something like this. What they did is start a small thing where they sold shirts and then gave everything they made to a charity the artist wanted. Also with the 11:11 org. They sell mad stuff and even have a website etc and all the money goes to a Pediactric Cancer Center. What if we did that? I'd be more than happy to help to organize something or do the research.
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#8 LivingThread

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 09:32 AM

Even if you said you'd donate the money for a cause? My friends started something like this. What they did is start a small thing where they sold shirts and then gave everything they made to a charity the artist wanted. Also with the 11:11 org. They sell mad stuff and even have a website etc and all the money goes to a Pediactric Cancer Center. What if we did that? I'd be more than happy to help to organize something or do the research.



Most of the time there is still profit being made by someone. The Devils know this is and doubt they would buy it from a bunch of riff raffs.
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#9 DevilinLA

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 04:17 AM

One thing to keep in mind is that its violation WHETHER OR NOT PROFIT IS INVOLVED.

That's a common misnomer.

Its all about control of usage. For my money its not worth the hassle as it probably ends up a bigger headache for DM than anything else.

The "piss off" approach is kind of foolhardy only goes so far until you draw attention to yourself. DM's got a good thing going here, and it seems to be healthily growing,....why jeopardize it?
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#10 Martyisth3b3st

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 07:15 PM

I think DinLA's title should also read "Lawyer of NJDevs" ;)
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#11 LivingThread

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 07:56 PM

if youre not in trouble for the site you wouldnt be in trouble for these.



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took all of 15 minutes but you get the idea.

Edited by LivingThread, 24 March 2009 - 07:57 PM.

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#12 RowdyFan42

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:07 PM

Dude, did you or did you not read the posts by the owner of this site? He already said, we tried the T-shirt thing once before, and the Devils shot us down.
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#13 sammyk

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:47 PM

Rowdy, what did the shirt you guys tried before say? Do you have a picture of it anywhere, I'd be curious to see.
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#14 LivingThread

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:55 PM

Dude, did you or did you not read the posts by the owner of this site? He already said, we tried the T-shirt thing once before, and the Devils shot us down.


I did. It said.......



They wouldn't let us use the word Devils. I lost the emails but the other part was making money was considered a no-no by them. It was directly from the vice president of NJD.



Maybe i misunderstood, but nothing in the shirt says Devils.





Since you were part of the crew trying to get shirts maybe you can enlighten me on what part of the shirt would bring heat from the devils? Cause if its the web sites name, there is no hope. If the heat is from selling things that bring people to a fan site, they have no case. As in ...if you called the site HELLishHockey.com and wanted to print a shirt....good luck NJD, Ill see you in court.

Ive been thu this over and over with the Yankees. Until recently my partner and i had vendors out side the stadium selling shirts. Hes been doin git for over 12 years. Since this new law was passed who knows what will happen, but prior to it there was NOTHING they could about me printing a Red shirt that said New Jersey Rules or Go NJ Go. Ever see the Yankees shirts with the rings on the back? Not the MLB one that says Yankees, but the "other" one you get for $10 instead of $30. Nothing on there says Yankees, New York or New York Yankees and therefore it was untouchable by the organization.

If you have legit rights to the name of the site and there is no law or rules against it, there is no law against you selling shirts that says what i just designed. you can look into the dmca and find out where you stand when it comes to that.

If you have gone over this with them and arent informing me of other things said (other then dont use the word devils) then my apology.

Edited by LivingThread, 24 March 2009 - 09:03 PM.

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#15 sammyk

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 09:04 PM

That's what I thought too...since it didn't say "Devils". You'd think if they had a problem with the shirt they'd have a problem with the site too.
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#16 DevilinLA

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 10:14 PM

Since you were part of the crew trying to get shirts maybe you can enlighten me on what part of the shirt would bring heat from the devils? Cause if its the web sites name, there is no hope. If the heat is from selling things that bring people to a fan site, they have no case. As in ...if you called the site HELLishHockey.com and wanted to print a shirt....good luck NJD, Ill see you in court.

Ive been thu this over and over with the Yankees. Until recently my partner and i had vendors out side the stadium selling shirts. Hes been doin git for over 12 years. Since this new law was passed who knows what will happen, but prior to it there was NOTHING they could about me printing a Red shirt that said New Jersey Rules or Go NJ Go. Ever see the Yankees shirts with the rings on the back? Not the MLB one that says Yankees, but the "other" one you get for $10 instead of $30. Nothing on there says Yankees, New York or New York Yankees and therefore it was untouchable by the organization.

If you have legit rights to the name of the site and there is no law or rules against it, there is no law against you selling shirts that says what i just designed. you can look into the dmca and find out where you stand when it comes to that.

If you have gone over this with them and arent informing me of other things said (other then dont use the word devils) then my apology.

BTW, if by DMCA you are referring to the "Digital Millenium Copyright Act" it does not have any application here.

I just think you are just missing DM's point.

He's not interested. It's not worth the hassle. All it will do is draw more attention from lawyers and the organization into policing every aspect of the this site. If it makes more of a headache its not worth it.

As it is the site generates $$$ from donations, so there's little profit in the advertising for him, with a larger chance of more legal hassle.

I don't want to go as far as to speak for DM, but that's the impression I get (if I'm wrong Dm please correct me). Frankly, I can't blame him as I wouldn't want to deal with it either.

Additionally it amazes me that there are always people out there trying to paint the "evil, corporate, money-grubbing" organization picture, and that the laws are meant to keep the little guy down. Copyright and trademark laws were designed to promote creativity, individual design and growth. Thats the whole premise. Well, I guess there will always be those trying to make a quick buck with no original ideas of theri own I guess.
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#17 LivingThread

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 10:30 PM

NJDEVS.com = DMCA = trademark = ownership
take a gander at what the dmca can do if he made a shirt that said simply NJDEVS.com

and

i think the name NJDEVS was very creative. if you don tthink so, no reason to say he didnt have an original idea.

and
as far as the site and the donations. If i bought one of his shirts, he can use the money to pay his car payment or use it to pay for running this site.



whats the reason you put
I just think you are just missing DM's point.
in bold but then said
I don't want to go as far as to speak for DM, but that's the impression I get (if I'm wrong Dm please correct me).
in regular text?

Edited by LivingThread, 24 March 2009 - 10:38 PM.

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#18 DevilinLA

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 10:56 PM

NJDEVS.com = DMCA = trademark = ownership
take a gander at what the dmca can do if he made a shirt that said simply NJDEVS.com

and

i think the name NJDEVS was very creative. if you don tthink so, no reason to say he didnt have an original idea.

and
as far as the site and the donations. If i bought one of his shirts, he can use the money to pay his car payment or use it to pay for running this site.



whats the reason you put
I just think you are just missing DM's point.
in bold but then said
I don't want to go as far as to speak for DM, but that's the impression I get (if I'm wrong Dm please correct me).
in regular text?

OK, clearly you are new here, so I'm not going to be rude.
If you read the thread you'll see it has nothing to do with the name of this site.
Secondly, if you know some of the history of issues on this site you'll know some of the headache involved with purging this site of potential infringement usage suits with local media and other national media sources. It was a lengthy battle and effort to make this place "up to code" in the eyes of lawyers and other representation from various parties. It was quite a headache, and many of the members here worked hard to make sure no remnants remained of any potential legal issues. Check the archives.

My criticism of originality lies not with the site name, but the T-Shirt concept. You are essentially pushing an idea that has been frequently explored here regarding trademark issues. The design is sharp that you put up, the mechanics of implementation would require the man-hours of a business.

Not a surprise that DM is not chomping at the bit to get at it. Additionally, the scope and size of selling T-shirts online, opening up an eCommerce site with the pursuant hosting fees and daily shipping tasks seems like quite a lot. I would imagine that just keeping this site running smoothly is enough for one person.

IF there was an easy and profitable way to make this happen I'm sure DM would have found it by now. (especially with the collective knowledge of many great Devil fan posters and entrepreneurial minds here).

Understanding both Copyright Law and Trademark application is a lot deeper than simply reading the Wikipedia online definition.

If you like the site so much, I might encourage the more direct method of clicking the DONATE button as it is a much more direct method of keeping the bills paid here.

Simply put, if DM, or anyone else here was interested (and had found the best business model and approach to circumventing trademark issues), you and I wouldn't be debating this in a thread....but you'd be talking directly to him or another potential investor.
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#19 sammyk

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 11:22 PM

DevilinLA, where do you get the idea that DM is not interested? In his response he did say that if LivingThread found a way to work with them he thought there would be a market. One could also think he'd still be interested if all this could be done legally. Maybe he didn't mean that but it could be interpreted as such so you can see why LivingThread continued.

Now since you are the expert, what would be illegal about printing and selling shirts that say NJDevs.com and do not mention the New Jersey Devils or their logo? If I recall the Devils didn't want "Devils" mentioned on this site either and DM had to change it from "The Un-Official Devils something or another" to "The Swamp" and now of course The Rock. They didn't seem to mind anything else as far as I know.
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#20 DevilinLA

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 11:35 PM

DevilinLA, where do you get the idea that DM is not interested? In his response he did say that if LivingThread found a way to work with them he thought there would be a market. One could also think he'd still be interested if all this could be done legally. Maybe he didn't mean that but it could be interpreted as such so you can see why LivingThread continued.

Now since you are the expert, what would be illegal about printing and selling shirts that say NJDevs.com and do not mention the New Jersey Devils or their logo? If I recall the Devils didn't want "Devils" mentioned on this site either and DM had to change it from "The Un-Official Devils something or another" to "The Swamp" and now of course The Rock. They didn't seem to mind anything else as far as I know.

You may be absolutely right.

I'm just pointing out that this is a lot bigger project than it sounds. Between the shipping, eCommerce, and initial investment. Its quite a project. Especially if the organization starts to take notice, they'll probably keep a closer eye on this site. Additionally, whoever designs the T needs to secure the rights for it.As well asthe design used above incorporates a logo created by a member. Would they be willing to relinquish control for zero profit?

Additionally, the color combination along with the implied "Devs" in Devils might be an issue.

Your right sammy, I shouldn't speak for DM, but my impression was that the most recent bout with the lawyers left him a little dizzy and hating the whole ordeal.

This would be something that comes close.
The question really is:

How much profit could be made???

vs.

Initial Capital + Manhours in Maintenance + Shipping Costs + Securing Rights for the Design + Potential Legal issues

Now, I don't know what DM's day gig is, but all I'm saying is it sounds like significant time investment?

Edited by DevilinLA, 24 March 2009 - 11:36 PM.

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