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#381 Triumph

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:14 AM

another great post - it's wild to think about next year's team, when they first became devils, besides brodeur and elias:

05-06: parise, janssen
06-07: greene, clarkson, zajac, fraser, pelley
07-08: zubrus, salvador
08-09:
09-10: kovalchuk, palmieri, zharkov
10-11: tallinder, volchenkov, tedenby, josefson, fayne, taormina, hedberg, steckel, urbom
11-12: boulton, larsson(?)
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#382 iamtheprodigy

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:45 AM

dr33 hitting the nail on the head in this thread. I like it.
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#383 NJDevs4978

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:13 AM

Remember, this is Lou trying to be pro-active and avoiding similar situations that happened last year with Brian and Jamie. This is him cleaning up his mistakes well before they can hurt morale/locker room/on ice play. It allows a young coach to work with eager young players fighting for ice time instead of disgruntled veterans. It helps avoid many of the problems that plagued J-Mac last year and veterans of the past.


I'd like to believe that...I'd be more apt to believe that in Rolston's case considering he is moody and only gave max effort as a Devil after he got waived last year. I never got the impression of White as one of the problems, other than maybe when he sided with Jamie publicly against Lemaire two years ago (admittedly, Lemaire put him in a tough spot with the whole C for a game nonsense) but you're right, the pattern can't be denied. Honestly I'd probably be looking at things more the way you are if it wasn't for the Parise stormcloud still hanging over our heads.
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#384 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:16 AM

Great posts, dr33.

So this is what rebuilding is like ...
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#385 Pepperkorn

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:09 AM

:doh1: :argh:

thank you dr33 - I could have sworn I've been writing the same thing ad nausium since last Summer.

one more thing I'd add ... Lou isn't just doing this on his own. He's getting input from his coaching staff. You can see plainly what Lou put together from observations made by Lemaire and Robinson throughout the years - particularly where White is concerned. Lou isn't doing all this in a vacuum or merely at the behest of JVB.

Noone has to read this -- that's why I'm going back and editing it in :P

actually - I've been going way deeper and doing the psycho-babble. For me saying you don't like your minutes, then go somewhere else is -- it's a dude simplification and I think it's required and all the rest of it is unspoken but there and everyone knows it and dudes just dont talk that way. tldr. I'm a chick - I never want to hurt anyone's feelings and I want people to understand the core of the problem. And I'm writing to the players in my head here of course.

Langenbrunner, White, Madden all could have stayed but they dont get it -- they dont understand the system. :unsure: How the hell can I expect anyone here to either... <_< It' so beautiful though... I can't take it off the table I'm like Lemaire even...

Thank god for Lou and dr33! :lol:

Edited by Pepperkorn, 03 August 2011 - 08:45 AM.

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#386 Devilsfan118

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:17 AM

Seriously great posts, wow. Good stuff.

Great posts, dr33.

So this is what rebuilding is like ...


Hopefully minus the years of habitual suck-age, though
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#387 95Crash

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 09:04 AM

And just to add one more thing. I think we're seeing Lou finally...finally...get what so many of us wanted over the years. To change the old guard, the coach killers, etc. It's just Brodeur and Elias...that's it. Even if Lou wanted to get rid of Elias (not seeing he wants to or ever would just it's almost impossible). Two players with rings. That might scare people, but I for one welcome our new inexperienced overlords. Clearly it wasn't working, and you can't be unhappy about Larry, Lou, Julien, Lou, Sutter, Lemaire, MacLean, Lemaire, Deboer, and then be unhappy with these moves. It took Lou long enough, but past success and loyalty turned into a combination of self-entitlement, groupthink, and then the disease of me.

Maybe it took Lou to see Claude Julien take an inexperienced Bruins team to the Cup finals to say maybe it was them and not the damn coach. It finally took Lou a few years to forget about the past and do what's right for this team to succeed moving forward. Follow the NFL route where veterans (no matter how successful in the past) are cut at the right time, which is as soon as they start to decline, or sometimes right before.

And maybe, I was guilty of this last year, but am finally seeing it a lot more clearer. A guy like Rolston might be the nicest guy in the locker room, and a guy like Jamie might be a great guy for the younger guys like Zach and Travis, but that doesn't mean that they deserve what they want, and it doesn't mean they can act the way they do. When you become a Devil, respecting the history, the crest on the front and not the name on the back, the team values, and so on is what you are taught and what you should follow. Guys like Pandolfo, Rolston, White, Langenbrunner, Arnott, Madden, even Elias are the players you respect. They are the veterans, the warriors, the champions But the reality is they were not acting like leaders. The last few years has not always been a good environment for younger players. And it probably was a partial reason why this team has gone in prolong slumps. Younger players were probably taking the wrong cues from veteran players.

As corny as it sounds, the past is almost finished being wiped away. It's time for a new beginning, a new generation and new leaders. This is an exciting time. There will be growing pains, and there will be bumps. But these bumps will be much better than the ones of the past 6 years. Because Lou and the Devils are doing it the right way.

Finally.

Not a bad way to look at the current state of affairs.
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#388 RowdyFan42

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 09:34 AM

Great posts, dr33.

So this is what rebuilding is like ...

I think it's more like the half-rebuilding that Sather tried last decade... only Lou's actually getting it somewhat right.

But yes, great posts from dr33 here. Definitely made me feel better about losing Colin.
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#389 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 09:53 AM

I think it's more like the half-rebuilding that Sather tried last decade... only Lou's actually getting it somewhat right.

But yes, great posts from dr33 here. Definitely made me feel better about losing Colin.


I probably should have worded it better, like "This is what Lou's idea of rebuilding is like" or something.

And here's a thought ... we've been looking at this as though it was a Lou move. Like he's pushing the team in a certain direction and White went along with it. But what if it was White's idea and he wanted out? Maybe the acquisitions of Tallinder and Volchenkov, signing of Greene, recovery of Salvador, drafting of Larsson and promise of Fayne, Taormina and Urbom were all a loud and clear sign to White that his ice time wasn't gonna be where he wanted it. Maybe he saw it get ugly with other vets past or near their peak years expiration dates like Langs, Rolston and Arnott and didn't wanna be that guy. And, being one of Lou's loyal soldiers, Lou did everything he could for White. He kept it quiet so White wouldn't be looked at as a turncoat. He tried to trade him to a favorable team, and when that didn't happen he bought him out and let him control his own destiny.

I'd like to think it's more Lou learning from past mistakes and doing what he thinks is best for the team, but it could very well be that Whitey just wanted out.
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#390 SMantzas

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:04 AM

And just to add one more thing. I think we're seeing Lou finally...finally...get what so many of us wanted over the years. To change the old guard, the coach killers, etc. It's just Brodeur and Elias...that's it. Even if Lou wanted to get rid of Elias (not seeing he wants to or ever would just it's almost impossible). Two players with rings. That might scare people, but I for one welcome our new inexperienced overlords. Clearly it wasn't working, and you can't be unhappy about Larry, Lou, Julien, Lou, Sutter, Lemaire, MacLean, Lemaire, Deboer, and then be unhappy with these moves. It took Lou long enough, but past success and loyalty turned into a combination of self-entitlement, groupthink, and then the disease of me.

Maybe it took Lou to see Claude Julien take an inexperienced Bruins team to the Cup finals to say maybe it was them and not the damn coach. It finally took Lou a few years to forget about the past and do what's right for this team to succeed moving forward. Follow the NFL route where veterans (no matter how successful in the past) are cut at the right time, which is as soon as they start to decline, or sometimes right before.

And maybe, I was guilty of this last year, but am finally seeing it a lot more clearer. A guy like Rolston might be the nicest guy in the locker room, and a guy like Jamie might be a great guy for the younger guys like Zach and Travis, but that doesn't mean that they deserve what they want, and it doesn't mean they can act the way they do. When you become a Devil, respecting the history, the crest on the front and not the name on the back, the team values, and so on is what you are taught and what you should follow. Guys like Pandolfo, Rolston, White, Langenbrunner, Arnott, Madden, even Elias are the players you respect. They are the veterans, the warriors, the champions But the reality is they were not acting like leaders. The last few years has not always been a good environment for younger players. And it probably was a partial reason why this team has gone in prolong slumps. Younger players were probably taking the wrong cues from veteran players.

As corny as it sounds, the past is almost finished being wiped away. It's time for a new beginning, a new generation and new leaders. This is an exciting time. There will be growing pains, and there will be bumps. But these bumps will be much better than the ones of the past 6 years. Because Lou and the Devils are doing it the right way.

Finally.

Great post and I agree with almost everything you said, but there is one thing that bugs me. There is no player in the NHL that has more of an influence on his team than Martin Brodeur. I wouldn't doubt if he has played a large role in the coaching roller coaster. To say that White, Langs (well we know he and Lemaire had issues), Madden etc. were the problems and no mention of Brodeur is probably wrong. I don't see why White had to be a casualty when our defense is clearly gonna be worse without him. I'm sorry, but I don't see how a 18/19 year old Adam Larsson or Matt Taormina is going to replace his stellar defensive play. I'm a very optimistic person, but something hasn't seemed quite "right" with the Devils' interior for awhile now
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#391 Pepperkorn

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:13 AM

Yah DiG - I think it was kind of as Lou said -- they reached a mutual agreement.... who instigated that agreement - who knows? I think I know everything and I can't even guess -- both seem plausible.


I wish I'd stop writing today. I'm over-tired and just running off at the fingers pretty brainlessly! But I'm BORED too.... too much going on in Devils territory. and not enough known. and no amount of whining postulating grumping :blahblah: is going to change anything.

I guess I'm ready for hockey. but I'm not... the season is too long so the off season can't just wind down -- I'm always amped on hockey <_< It sounds counter intuitive but really make the season shorter pre-season in October - Playoffs played in March and April with finals the first week of May then DONE. June july August relax. September training camp - October pre-season etc.

I dont need more hockey. little less would help improve the quality of hockey we get. and I wouldn't waste time with all the mental masturbation :yucky:

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#392 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:18 AM

Great post and I agree with almost everything you said, but there is one thing that bugs me. There is no player in the NHL that has more of an influence on his team than Martin Brodeur. I wouldn't doubt if he has played a large role in the coaching roller coaster. To say that White, Langs (well we know he and Lemaire had issues), Madden etc. were the problems and no mention of Brodeur is probably wrong. I don't see why White had to be a casualty when our defense is clearly gonna be worse without him. I'm sorry, but I don't see how a 18/19 year old Adam Larsson or Matt Taormina is going to replace his stellar defensive play. I'm a very optimistic person, but something hasn't seemed quite "right" with the Devils' interior for awhile now


Well, as mentioned earlier, Marty and Elias are all that's left. This may very well be Marty's last year (especially if a lockout consumes the 2012-13 season). When he and Elias are gone, the new veteran leaders are gonna be a combination of guys like Zajac, Kovalchuk, Zubrus, Volchenkov, Greene, Tallinder and hopefully Parise. The interior will be totally changed pretty quickly.
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#393 Pepperkorn

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:22 AM

Great post and I agree with almost everything you said, but there is one thing that bugs me. There is no player in the NHL that has more of an influence on his team than Martin Brodeur. I wouldn't doubt if he has played a large role in the coaching roller coaster. To say that White, Langs (well we know he and Lemaire had issues), Madden etc. were the problems and no mention of Brodeur is probably wrong. I don't see why White had to be a casualty when our defense is clearly gonna be worse without him. I'm sorry, but I don't see how a 18/19 year old Adam Larsson or Matt Taormina is going to replace his stellar defensive play. I'm a very optimistic person, but something hasn't seemed quite "right" with the Devils' interior for awhile now


Elias as well as Marty. It's the law of diminishing returns.

From where I sat Marty saw the problem last year and realized he had no fvcking idea -- but everything he thought was wrong so he was going to sit down and STFU.

Elias again just to me - was talking through the problem and I saw him learning he was a little mouthy for me but his blabbing makes it more clear where he is and you can guide that. Patty is smart with a temper he gives vent to - but he is NOT obstinate - he learns and works with the feedback hes given. He really is a great team player. Others - they're just stubborn and lose sight of the goal thinking about being right - I think Madden and Langenbrunner are like that. Pando and Rolston willing but just not able :saddevil: White... he's White - what you see is what you get. If you DON'T see something... you ain't getting it.
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#394 Pepperkorn

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:25 AM

You know -- and Brylin -- he's a smart one ... I wonder what he's seeing now. It's good he's around. It's just clean hockey you want - how a team built on clean hockey got so muddled I just have no idea.
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#395 sundstrom

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 11:21 AM

while i'm still not 100% ok with this white move, the thought that he was necessarily for it and ok with it seems extremely far fetched. since this has happened, he's made no public comment at all and the only word, through his agent, is that he was terribly disappointed to be leaving the organization.
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#396 Pepperkorn

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:05 PM

well then.. there it is... BUZZ KILLER!
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#397 Triumph

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:15 PM

while i'm still not 100% ok with this white move, the thought that he was necessarily for it and ok with it seems extremely far fetched. since this has happened, he's made no public comment at all and the only word, through his agent, is that he was terribly disappointed to be leaving the organization.


i don't think it looks good to make a public comment when you're a free agent, though. i agree that i don't think he was okay with it. when he signs elsewhere, that's when we'll hear something.
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#398 devilsrule33

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:16 PM

while i'm still not 100% ok with this white move, the thought that he was necessarily for it and ok with it seems extremely far fetched. since this has happened, he's made no public comment at all and the only word, through his agent, is that he was terribly disappointed to be leaving the organization.


Oh it is far fetched. I doubt he is happy to leave the only team he ever played for and uproot a young family. He probably feels disappointed that he is being used as a partial scapegoat. But that doesn't change pretty much everything I said, except where I might have mentioned that he thought he needed a change of scenery. Remember Langs didn't think so either, when it was clear he did. I'm guessing Lou has a damn good pulse on the team now, and if he thinks it is best for Colin to go, I trust him.

Edited by devilsrule33, 03 August 2011 - 12:29 PM.

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#399 The Facepainter

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:40 PM

I think it's mainly the budget driving these moves. The Devil's player expenses for the past 7-8 years averages about 55 million, according to Forbes.com. Before last year, the only other time they broke 55 million was in 2003 with 58 million. By 2006, they dropped down to 46 million. After that, they were back up at around 55 million for the next 4 years. Last year, according to cap geek, I believe they were spending 63 million. Right now, after the moves, they're around 55 million. Next year, with Kovalchuk being paid 5 million more things get a little more interesting. Especially since Brodeur, Salvador, Hedberg, Parise, and 1 million in buyouts come off the Devils payroll. So that's about 16 million. To sign or not sign some of those players. I also don't think the Devils can afford to give Parise a front loaded contract. If he signs a long term contract, it will most likely be flat. I'm a bit worried, but I think there's enough room for Lou to make things work, and keep Vanderbeek in business.
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#400 HellOnICE

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 01:00 PM

TG is reporting White has agreed to terms with a new team.
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