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GDT: New Jersey Devils @ New York Rangers 7pm


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#241 Devils731

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 04:14 PM

In a salary cap world you never lose a player for nothing. If the Devils don't trade Parise and he leaves, the Devils still gained all the extra games he played by not dealing him and 100% of his cap space.
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#242 Devilsfan118

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 04:25 PM

If the Devils are #1 or #2 in the conference and Zach is having a great year and the team really looks like a legitimate contender, will you still say that? I know what you're saying...don't want to lose him for nothing...but what kind of message would trading Zach send to his teammates?


Gah no I know, I just don't think this organization can afford to lose another star player for (literally) nothing. Just puts the organization back more than a few steps.

In a salary cap world you never lose a player for nothing. If the Devils don't trade Parise and he leaves, the Devils still gained all the extra games he played by not dealing him and 100% of his cap space.


Well that might be the most glass-half-full explanation I've ever read. If the primary 'return' of zach leaving is cap space..I'm :rofl: trying to even put into words how pissed I'd be.

I get what you're saying, but cap space doesn't possess much inherent value imo.

Edited by Devilsfan118, 22 September 2011 - 04:27 PM.

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#243 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 04:41 PM

Gah no I know, I just don't think this organization can afford to lose another star player for (literally) nothing. Just puts the organization back more than a few steps.


I've always felt that the "Devils losing stars" idea gets blown up a bit. They have lost some players, but I could understand why most of them left, and why Lou passed on bringing them back. And with the Devils always being in contention (until last season), I could also understand why he didn't deal them before the deadline.

Zach is a different case...for one, he's one of the most talented players in the league, and though guys like Gomez, Gionta, Martin, Rafalski, etc. were vary degrees of good, Parise is on another level. And yeah, the Devils would have around $8 million in cap space to play with that would've gone to Parise if he leaves, but that's really looking at it from a purely forensic point of view...I think his leaving would sting on a number of levels, starting with the fanbase, who absolutely love the guy...and I think it'd be tough on his teammates as well. The big problem is you can't replace him, and I don't know what marquee-types are going to be available come free agency this season, but I'd be surprised if any of them were thinking "I really want to come to NJ, first and foremost" come July 1.
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#244 Devils731

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 04:42 PM

I get what you're saying, but cap space doesn't possess much inherent value imo.


The cap space value, for a team that does a good job in salary negotiations(not saying the Devils are or aren't), should be about the same as the player you lose.

If it would take 7 million dollars to sign Parise, for any team, or they can acquire a similarly valued player for 7 million dollars then those players and deals are equal.

The key is to get players on contracts that are less than the players true value and minimize the number of players under contract that are paid more than their true value.

-------------------------------

I tend to think Parise will end up being a good value contract, so I do think it would be hard to replace whatever salary he signs for with a player that brings that same value as the same money, which is why I'd like the Devils to keep Parise.

I was just pointing out that getting all his salary is a valuable thing, as opposed to say Atlanta/Winnipeg, who instead of getting the whole of Kovy's contract to spend got stuck with 3.5 million of mediocre Oduya.
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#245 Risky

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 04:54 PM

Some fascinating stuff in this thread. And scary.

It is my feeling (and has been since the MacLean hire) that the sun has set on Lou's era. This organization needs some fresh blood, and someone that's not so draconian. GMs should manage hockey things, not marketing things and creative things. The current marketing says it all -- that hockey people have no idea what they're doing with regards to things they are not trained to do.

If Parise leaves this organization, it's going to be really tough to get up the team spirit next season. I have a feeling many other fans will feel the same.

That all said, we as fans really need to drop this holier-than-thou attitude that coming to NJ means winning. Since 2003, the Devils have been through -- by quick count -- 7 head coaches. They have, since then, won exactly *1* playoff series. Yes, they are usually there in that first week in April, but they are also usually home two weeks later with the Rangers and the rest of the losers. This isn't the early 00s. Coming to NJ no longer means winning and contending. It means coming to a well-run (though with an iron fist) organization that strives to win but no longer at the cost of all else (rigid philosophies and gigantic GM egos). I think NJ is in the top half of the league in terms of attractive destinations due to its proximity to Manhattan and its willingness to spend money, but I don't think it is a more attractive destination than perennial losers like the Rangers, the Kings and Toronto. It's just not true.

If Parise stays, it will be for a cocktail of varied reasons.
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#246 DevilinLA

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 05:05 PM

That all said, we as fans really need to drop this holier-than-thou attitude that coming to NJ means winning. Since 2003, the Devils have been through -- by quick count -- 7 head coaches. They have, since then, won exactly *1* playoff series. Yes, they are usually there in that first week in April, but they are also usually home two weeks later with the Rangers and the rest of the losers. This isn't the early 00s. Coming to NJ no longer means winning and contending. It means coming to a well-run (though with an iron fist) organization that strives to win but no longer at the cost of all else (rigid philosophies and gigantic GM egos). I think NJ is in the top half of the league in terms of attractive destinations due to its proximity to Manhattan and its willingness to spend money, but I don't think it is a more attractive destination than perennial losers like the Rangers, the Kings and Toronto. It's just not true.

If Parise stays, it will be for a cocktail of varied reasons.


Totally agree.
I have said as much for near 4 years now - and have taken a beating as well (mostly because my profile says LA), but seriously, I think its high time we reinvestigate our team's true public identity from a true objective perspective.

I think Risky's post is an accurate public perception.
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#247 Triumph

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 05:17 PM

731 is correct. You do gain the cap space to sign another player, and in a day and age when free agency doesn't mean a player over 31, that's big. Parise is probably a 5 wins a year player, but what if the team went out and signed Ales Hemsky, who's probably a 2.5 wins per year player? Whatever happened to the silly saying, 'We lost with you, we can lose without you' wrt Parise? Where's the playoff success that Parise has brought us that no one else has?

First off, Risky, the team has won 2 playoff series in that time.

But what that fails to recognize is that Lou totally rebuilt the team in that time. He and the scouting department went through a really bad run there in the early 2000s, but they have begun to really unearth some gems. I mean, you look at the young players on this team - Tedenby, Josefson, Larsson, Fayne, Taormina, Urbom, etc. etc. There's probably not a superstar in the bunch (besides Larsson, and it will probably take 3+ years to evaluate that), but there are some damn fine players. Finally, the Pandolfos and Maddens are gone. The days of using a Rob Niedermayer are hopefully over. The days of using a Mike Mottau are gone. Some of these players were very good at one time, and most of them gave 100% on every shift, but they weren't good enough.

Also, it's become a lot harder to win a playoff series now than it was 10 and especially 20 years ago. The edge you have on teams is smaller. Which means that luck plays a bigger factor, and I defy anyone to claim that the Devils have gotten the good end of chance in the playoffs over that time. This is going to be a common thing - very good teams who are going to come up short in the playoffs year after year. It happened in the late 90s too - the Blues could not seem to ever beat the Wings or Avalanche - and it will be more common now.

Edited by Triumph, 22 September 2011 - 05:19 PM.

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#248 StarDew

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 05:20 PM

Strange how a GDT turned into a Chico/Parise thread. :P
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#249 skeeter

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 05:31 PM

Strange how a GDT turned into a Chico/Parise thread. :P

Yeah I kind of feel bad about that, it totally derailed an awesome post by JasonMac. Honestly I'd rather my stuff is buried in here than if I started a new thread with all that stuff and it turned into an epic Kovy-like thread that lasted till July 1st next year.
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#250 Devilsfan118

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 06:40 PM

Yeah I kind of feel bad about that, it totally derailed an awesome post by JasonMac. Honestly I'd rather my stuff is buried in here than if I started a new thread with all that stuff and it turned into an epic Kovy-like thread that lasted till July 1st next year.


Ugh please no, I don't want to stare at a Parise thread each time I log into the forum. Constant reminder of the ' :rant: damn the hockey Gods to hell' feelings I'm likely to experience in July
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#251 Risky

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 06:47 PM

Oh, that's right. I actually forgot about the Rangers' sweep because the next round was so depressing.

While I agree with you Tri that the Devils went through a brutal drafting period, that's on the same front office that I'm damning. Let us not forget all the disastrous free agent signings that are also on them. These are the things that contribute to not winning playoff series. I said they are in the top 1/2 of destinations -- not that they were an Edmonton or anything. The Devils are simply not the team or the organization they once were. There are some very positive developments going on right now, but if we lose Parise, much of that could be for naught.

Other than possibly Elias, he's the best forward this team has ever drafted. Parise should consistently be in the "top 5" conversation now and through his prime. He's that good. Losing him would be disastrous, and more than just "5 wins per year."
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#252 Revan

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 06:56 PM

731 is correct. You do gain the cap space to sign another player, and in a day and age when free agency doesn't mean a player over 31, that's big.

It's only as big as the players you sign using that money. Lou has a history of losing players to free agency and not really using the gained cap space to sign replacements at the same level - sometimes I feel he'd rather overpay for three mediocre players than give the team a real boost by bringing in a supertalented guy we can afford with the cap space. Just after the lockout we were still a 2nd-round team. Then, with all the UFA losses, we fell to being a 1st-round team.

Don't think that we're immediately using that Parise money to sign another star player. It will be all about him next year. Lou will be concentrated on him and won't land offers to other big UFAs until this situation is resolved. Other free agents won't wait for the Devils to come with their offer.

Additionally, if Brodeur retires at the same time, it's a complete disaster. Even if Marty doesn't play that well next year, losing two faces of the franchise in a span of a few days is going to be destructive beyond words.
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#253 Triumph

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 07:26 PM

While I agree with you Tri that the Devils went through a brutal drafting period, that's on the same front office that I'm damning.


But that was because the Devils were too busy winning championships. Why did they not have a 1st round pick in 2002? They dealt it to Dallas in the Arnott deal. What happened to all their picks in 2004? They traded up for Zajac and had dealt for Viktor Kozlov and Jan Hrdina.

Drafting is hard. Drafting was especially hard during that period - it's not like anyone besides Detroit or people drafting at the top of the draft really did well. Let's look at the teams that did great in the late 90s, early 2000s. Detroit, New Jersey, Dallas, St. Louis, Colorado, Philadelphia. Is that a fair assessment of the league's elite? What has happened to them in the ten or so years since that time? Detroit has stayed on top. Good for them. New Jersey has only missed the playoffs once. St. Louis has made the playoffs one time post-lockout, and they got swept. Colorado has won two rounds since the lockout, and has drafted in the top 5 of the entry draft twice. They last played in the NHL Cup Finals 10 years ago, and they picked #2 overall this past season. Dallas has won 2 rounds, but they have missed the playoffs the last 3 years, and are not getting better. Philadelphia has only missed the playoffs once, but they, like the Devils had an utter disaster of a season when they did. Lou rebuilt the team between 1995 and 2000. He rebuilt the team between 2003 and 2007. And now he's rebuilt the team again - the players who've won a playoff round as a Devil? Elias, Parise, Zajac, Brodeur, Greene, Clarkson.

Let us not forget all the disastrous free agent signings that are also on them.


Disastrous free agent signings happen when you can't develop players. Lou didn't help himself by piling mistakes on top of mistakes, but when you don't have players ready for the NHL, you don't have a choice - you don't have any trade assets, so you can't take that route, and you can't just start sucking, because those teams were very good. They had Parise and Elias, two top players. Brodeur was one of the top goalies in the league and he was playing nearly every game.

Other than possibly Elias, he's the best forward this team has ever drafted. Parise should consistently be in the "top 5" conversation now and through his prime. He's that good. Losing him would be disastrous, and more than just "5 wins per year."


I doubt very much that Parise is worth more than 6 wins over replacement. He's a great player, and losing him would be a giant blow. But the team has a bright future and can still do a lot of great things without him. Like 731 said, you have to pay Parise. I would expect his contract to be a value contract, but not a huge value.

Edited by Triumph, 22 September 2011 - 07:46 PM.

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#254 NJDevs4978

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 07:41 PM

In a salary cap world you never lose a player for nothing. If the Devils don't trade Parise and he leaves, the Devils still gained all the extra games he played by not dealing him and 100% of his cap space.


The first part of that equation means jack if we're going to struggle to make the playoffs and/or lose in the first round again anyway and the second part of it is laughable. Especially since we don't even gain 100%, you still have to replace him with at least a 550k player but semantics aside, there's nobody on the market or in the farm you can replace him with in the next couple years.
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#255 SMantzas

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 08:00 PM

hypothetically if parise leaves, who are some ufa lw we can plug into our top 6?
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#256 Risky

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 08:21 PM

I understand your point(s), Tri. Mine is simply that this organization can no longer be considered "UFA bait" for our winning ways. We have maintained a winning record, but we lack the playoff success to draw FAs like Parise and others into playing in Newark in front of non-sellout crowds. Maybe we'll get back to that status. This Devils fan can hope.
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#257 NJDevs4978

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 08:35 PM

Well without the tradition we have to get FA's the way most everyone else does, by overpaying. And things haven't gone well for us too often when we overpay for FA's.

hypothetically if parise leaves, who are some ufa lw we can plug into our top 6?



You don't need a FA LW per se, if anything you'd be better off trying to replace Zach with a C or RW but I don't even see comparable players at those positions we could easily get.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 22 September 2011 - 08:36 PM.

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#258 95Crash

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 09:13 PM

Very interesting thread.

It's a bummer to hear that Parise might want out. I really hoped he would be a star for the Devils for years to come. I wonder how Vanderbeek feels about it. Maybe if Lou really is leaving after this season, JVB can talk to Zach privately and change his mind before he hits free agency.
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#259 Chorske17

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 09:23 PM

A year ago I mentioned what a foolish decision it was to sign Kovalchuk and I got jumped on. I also explained how Parise would probably not want to stay and now suddenly people are "oh gee, maybe it might happen afterall". Let's wait for it to happen, but the Devils winning of old are in its swan song. Regardless of what you perceptions of the team are. All teams hit these points and the Devils have definitely jumped the shark and we can be very fortunate to have seen so many great years. More will come, but I don't think it will be this year and I REALLY don't anticipate next year being one either.
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#260 SMantzas

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 09:34 PM

A year ago I mentioned what a foolish decision it was to sign Kovalchuk and I got jumped on. I also explained how Parise would probably not want to stay and now suddenly people are "oh gee, maybe it might happen afterall". Let's wait for it to happen, but the Devils winning of old are in its swan song. Regardless of what you perceptions of the team are. All teams hit these points and the Devils have definitely jumped the shark and we can be very fortunate to have seen so many great years. More will come, but I don't think it will be this year and I REALLY don't anticipate next year being one either.

like someone said, if Kovy being here has any bearing on his decision to stay, gtfo Zach. You dont waste a chance to get the leading goal scorer of the last decade. People may say its the contract, but Zach can easily get a 10/75 deal here

Edited by SMantzas, 22 September 2011 - 09:35 PM.

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