Jump to content

Photo

GDT: New Jersey Devils @ New York Rangers 7pm


  • Please log in to reply
277 replies to this topic

#261 Legion15

Legion15

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,900 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 10:44 AM

Coming to NJ no longer means winning and contending.


Posted Image
  • 0

WtnoJnL.jpg
One Day at a Time


#262 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,876 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:05 AM

You mean the approach of trying to score some goals rather than hoping to win every game 1-0? Those days are over, they've been over since the lockout. Gotta keep up with the times, and that's one thing Lou's had a real hard time doing.


They aren't over. They're back. In fact, they're back more than ever - imagine a team that scores no goals and allows no goals, and breaks even in the shootout. That team would be the best team in the league. They'd have 123 points. It stands to reason that having a lower scoring and better defensive team means more overtime games and more chances for an extra point.

http://drivingplay.b...06-and-its.html

The average team scored 224 goals last year. Let's look at what happened from 2000 to 2004?

2000: 225
2001: 226
2002: 215
2003: 218
2004: 211

So yeah, scoring is *slightly* up from then, but not to the 05-06 level of 248. The philosophies should be quite similar.

Edited by Triumph, 23 September 2011 - 11:06 AM.

  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 


#263 Chorske17

Chorske17

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,106 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:12 AM

He's getting better with the two-way play. What a difference coaching (Lemaire) makes! Granted, he'll never be your classic Devils defensive-minded forward, but he doesn't have to be that. As long as he's not a liability on defense, I'm happy.


That is the thing, HE IS a liability on defense... especially on the powerplay.

Name one Kovalchuk-led Thrashers team that was of better quality than the Devils teams he's been on. You might say, "That's my point!", but what I mean is, take Kovy off of those Thrashers teams and are they any good? Would they have been better without him? Not even a player of his caliber can make truly bad teams significantly better.


You have a point and I didn't quite mean it like that. I didn't mean just removed Kovalchuk from a past team and see how they do, I meant the Thrashers would've been given something for him either in trade or had more money to spend. I think the following year could have easily been a playoff years if he wasn't on the team. He was number one in scoring, but still a NEGATIVE in plus/minus when the other top 3 players were above +5.

2005-06 SEE team here: http://hockeydb.com/...0017902006.html


You mean the approach of trying to score some goals rather than hoping to win every game 1-0? Those days are over, they've been over since the lockout. Gotta keep up with the times, and that's one thing Lou's had a real hard time doing.


No,I did not mean the approach of trying to score 1 goal or hold onto a lead for most of the game. I can see why you thought that way, but I was referring to the "no player is above the team". It is very apparent that Kovalchuk is above the rest of the team in being allowed to make certain mistakes, the HORRID +/-, defensive-lapses, and so on. I can understand why the team doesn't mention it, but hearing Chico say, "oh that isn't his fault" so many times last year in addition to the blinder put on by other fans was just plain ignorant.

He's getting better with the two-way play. What a difference coaching (Lemaire) makes! Granted, he'll never be your classic Devils defensive-minded forward, but he doesn't have to be that. As long as he's not a liability on defense, I'm happy.


That is the thing, HE IS a liability on defense... especially on the powerplay.

Name one Kovalchuk-led Thrashers team that was of better quality than the Devils teams he's been on. You might say, "That's my point!", but what I mean is, take Kovy off of those Thrashers teams and are they any good? Would they have been better without him? Not even a player of his caliber can make truly bad teams significantly better.


You have a point and I didn't quite mean it like that. I didn't mean just removed Kovalchuk from a past team and see how they do, I meant the Thrashers would've been given something for him either in trade or had more money to spend. I think the following year could have easily been a playoff years if he wasn't on the team. He was number one in scoring, but still a NEGATIVE in plus/minus when the other top 3 players were above +5.

2005-06 SEE team here: http://hockeydb.com/...0017902006.html


You mean the approach of trying to score some goals rather than hoping to win every game 1-0? Those days are over, they've been over since the lockout. Gotta keep up with the times, and that's one thing Lou's had a real hard time doing.


No,I did not mean the approach of trying to score 1 goal or hold onto a lead for most of the game. I can see why you thought that way, but I was referring to the "no player is above the team". It is very apparent that Kovalchuk is above the rest of the team in being allowed to make certain mistakes, the HORRID +/-, defensive-lapses, and so on. I can understand why the team doesn't mention it, but hearing Chico say, "oh that isn't his fault" so many times last year in addition to the blinder put on by other fans was just plain ignorant.
  • 0
Game Worn Devils Collector! Please contact me concerning all things: Tom Chorske, Patrik Elias, David Hale, Bobby Holik, Jamie Langenbrunner, Grant Marshall, Kirk Muller, & Brian Rolston.

#264 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,876 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:21 AM

Chorske: Among the many stupid things about +/- is that it counts short handed goals. Kovalchuk is a forward playing the point. So in the season you cite, 2005-06, Kovalchuk scored 27 power play goals. But his team allowed 10 short handed goals, probably most of those with him on the ice. Still, that number came in under league average. But Kovalchuk was still probably docked 8 minuses for that. So you say 'aha, but his teammates were all mostly on the ice too, shouldn't they have been docked as well?' And the answer is yes, but a lot of them also played short-handed. Marian Hossa had 7 short-handed goals, that's a free +7 right there. Marc Savard played 80 short handed minutes and had 1 SHG, and was probably on the ice for others.

You won't get any argument from me that Marian Hossa is a better player than Ilya Kovalchuk, but you've got to realize that since Kovalchuk doesn't kill penalties and does play most of the power play, his +/- is going to have a few free minuses in there every year that would not be on other players. He won't be a -26 this year, I expect him to be between +10 and -10.

Edited by Triumph, 23 September 2011 - 11:27 AM.

  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 


#265 devlman

devlman

    General Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,281 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:39 AM

They aren't over. They're back. In fact, they're back more than ever - imagine a team that scores no goals and allows no goals, and breaks even in the shootout. That team would be the best team in the league. They'd have 123 points. It stands to reason that having a lower scoring and better defensive team means more overtime games and more chances for an extra point.

http://drivingplay.b...06-and-its.html

The average team scored 224 goals last year. Let's look at what happened from 2000 to 2004?

2000: 225
2001: 226
2002: 215
2003: 218
2004: 211

So yeah, scoring is *slightly* up from then, but not to the 05-06 level of 248. The philosophies should be quite similar.


Dont look at what the average team scored as its meaningless, but the total goals scored league-wide.
  • 0

#266 DaneykoIsGod

DaneykoIsGod

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,187 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:43 AM

They aren't over. They're back. In fact, they're back more than ever - imagine a team that scores no goals and allows no goals, and breaks even in the shootout. That team would be the best team in the league. They'd have 123 points. It stands to reason that having a lower scoring and better defensive team means more overtime games and more chances for an extra point.


I imagine that team wouldn't last very long in the playoffs.
  • 0
Posted Image

"I don't like those Rangers fans from New Jersey." - Jim Dowd

#267 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,876 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:57 AM

Dont look at what the average team scored as its meaningless, but the total goals scored league-wide.


Huh? No. Multiply all those numbers by 30, and add a number between 15 and -15, and you'll have your answer, if you really need it. The average number of goals is the total goals scored in the league divided by the number of teams, and I assume it's rounded to the nearest whole number.
  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 


#268 Onddeck

Onddeck

    Head Coach

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,449 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 01:28 PM

I hope (and think) that Lou is smart enough to know we must keep Parise
  • 0

Somebody's gotta be the hero... Why not me?


#269 RowdyFan42

RowdyFan42

    A Legend

  • Tech Support
  • 12,640 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 01:51 PM

No,I did not mean the approach of trying to score 1 goal or hold onto a lead for most of the game. I can see why you thought that way, but I was referring to the "no player is above the team". It is very apparent that Kovalchuk is above the rest of the team in being allowed to make certain mistakes, the HORRID +/-, defensive-lapses, and so on. I can understand why the team doesn't mention it, but hearing Chico say, "oh that isn't his fault" so many times last year in addition to the blinder put on by other fans was just plain ignorant.

I don't think it's because he's a superstar, though. I think it's because he comes from a system where he was never taught differently. He was a one-man offensive show in Atlanta because he could get away with it. He's way too good offensively to send him down to the AHL and let him develop his defensive skills (not to mention he'd never clear waivers), so the Devils have to let him make his mistakes in the NHL. What's the alternative, nail him to the bench and only use him on the power play? He's improving, and hopefully DeBoer can keep up the good work Lemaire started.
  • 0
Posted Image of the Devils' mascot, NJ Devil, and Posted Image of all mascots far and wide.

IT IS VERY HARD TO WIN ONE STANLEY CUP, FORGET ABOUT THREE... and maybe it's high time some of you actually APPRECIATED THAT instead of treating it like it's some flipping birthright because for some random reason you rooted for the damn Devils!!!!! Posted Image


AHLFans.net - American Hockey League fan forums

#270 Pepperkorn

Pepperkorn

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,540 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:47 PM

Just getting to reading this stuff.

Sounds like chico's got sand in his shorts. The organization is all strung out - I knwo how that is. Is Lou burnt out - is everyone burnt out on Lou? :noclue:

A major problem is Lou is a sh!tty liar - and a sh!tty manipulator of people. He tells the truth and then when he just doesn't have fvcking time for you he's lies out his ass and he looks like a real jackass - a distrustful, disdainful lying old scunner who honestly thinks you're THAT stupid. :rolleyes: I've seen him do it on a small scale and seen how his people react - he'll leave people holding the bag and scutter off to do more important work. He looks so feeble and weak when he pulls that sh!t.

Maybe he fears confrontation?

ANYHOW -- I can imagine Lou making Chico feel like an a$$hole -- you know, and that's infuriating. and it'll color how Chico sees and hears things. There is definitely truth in there. We all can feel it... but which part is the truth. Chico seems to have a shell of steel - but he's got delicate sensibilities on the interior. Lou's crude impatience is probably a little offensive to him. It'll not only color how he hears what people have to say - people will also want to tell him what he wants to hear. Heh heh... that chico -- what a gossip!
  • 0

I'm here for the party


#271 Pepperkorn

Pepperkorn

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,540 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 10:12 PM

as for Zach -- I have no read on the guy. He's a very clean thinker and just smart enough - and just stupid enough to be a pretty blank slate. so I only have his dad's past experience that i am aware of at least to go on. loyalty .. on ice - to your team. Off ice -- it's a business like everything else. He's a commodity.


what I like is (on teh Devils - I have to say with Lou - with Lou's organization) there is always a deeply shared affection for hockey. dammitall and it's infuriating that that's what it comes down to... because it makes everything that much harder.

Zach... He's not a Joe Sakic. He can't bring the hockey with him -- I mean the hockey but, you know -- he'll play the game and play it well wherever he goes. He's a Shanahan. he'll get pulled - he'll do the NHL thing not the hockey thing I think is as close as I can come to articulating how it is. There is somethign deeply ingrained that's -- well it's not Sakic is all I can say

Much as I didnt' like it Niedermayer takes hockey with him - in fact he pulls it out of his back pocket and dusts it off - its' irritating how a guy can do that have such little regard for it and yet it's just there for him - 'cause he loves it... sometimes. weenie. and Joe Sakic -- I mean -- hockey is like... his clothes... his body odor. "dude -- you've got hockey on" "Oh this? Yeah -- I just... I just have that... yeah cool, isn't it?" <_< Scott Stevens takes the dearest care of hockey - it's his treasure. Hockey is Marty's best girl... beautiful and so much fun to be with..but fvck her if she turns on him just cause he got a little old... <_< bitch. :giggle: he's groveling to keep her right now so adorable.

but Zach.... I dont know. He's just not old enough yet. What stinks is somewhere down deep -- leaving the Devils... you know you're leaving hockey -- will she follow? Lord knows she wasn't going with Gomez. When he leaves I'll know.... and I wont say staying with the Devils is hands down what's best for him... :noclue:

Edited by Pepperkorn, 23 September 2011 - 10:15 PM.

  • 0

I'm here for the party


#272 hurricane1091

hurricane1091

    Rookie Devil

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 482 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:14 PM

None of know anything about Parise and it is stupid to speculate. Let's just focus on winning The Stanley Cup and see where it goes.
  • 0

#273 devilsfan26

devilsfan26

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,815 posts

Posted 24 September 2011 - 12:37 AM

I imagine that team wouldn't last very long in the playoffs.

Actually they would last very long. If they never scored or never gave up a goal, their first playoff game would go on so long, it would never end.
  • 0
"Swim against the tide, don't follow the group, stay away from the majority, seek out the fresh and new, stay away from the poseurs, and don't be a barnacle. Be original, be different, be passionate, be selfless and be free. Be a hockey fan."
--John Buccigross

#274 DaneykoIsGod

DaneykoIsGod

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,187 posts

Posted 24 September 2011 - 09:19 AM

Actually they would last very long. If they never scored or never gave up a goal, their first playoff game would go on so long, it would never end.


:lol: Good point.
  • 0
Posted Image

"I don't like those Rangers fans from New Jersey." - Jim Dowd

#275 NJDevs4978

NJDevs4978

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,775 posts

Posted 24 September 2011 - 09:24 AM

Chorske: Among the many stupid things about +/- is that it counts short handed goals.


Why is that stupid? If you're going to get docked a minus for getting scored on even-strength, it'd make no sense not to dock you a minus for getting scored on with a man advantage. Likewise, if you're going to get rewarded for being part of a goal even-strength, you should definitely get rewarded for a goal when you have fewer players than the other team.
  • 0
"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#276 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,876 posts

Posted 24 September 2011 - 10:02 AM

Why is that stupid? If you're going to get docked a minus for getting scored on even-strength, it'd make no sense not to dock you a minus for getting scored on with a man advantage. Likewise, if you're going to get rewarded for being part of a goal even-strength, you should definitely get rewarded for a goal when you have fewer players than the other team.


It makes logical sense, but when it comes to valuing players with +/-, it unfairly penalizes players who only play on the power play. It especially penalizes players like Brad Richards and Ilya Kovalchuk - forwards who play the point on the power play, and tend to play for more than half of the power play. Short handed goals are inevitable, so those type of players get a free -5 every season.
  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 


#277 Pepperkorn

Pepperkorn

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,540 posts

Posted 27 September 2011 - 09:19 AM

Man this thread is my nightmare -- it's thrown my whole Devils perception off kilter pitting my two favorites against each other -- Chico vs Lou. It's like one side of my personality against the other....

:saddevil: only Chico could get me to doubt Lou.

and only Chico badmouthing Lou could make me doubt Chico.

My problem is I have an inner-chico - and an inner-Lou and .. well this conflict is unresolvable in my mind because they can't be split. and that doubt both cast on each other is like the personification of my fatal flaw.... my inner Lou says who gives a fvck what Chico has to say and that unto itself a fatal blow. Chico saying Lou is SO obtuse so purposefully obtuse well thats another death knell.

But Life has taught me both are correct Chico will always seek a path with some dream that he's making a difference and lou will always know, fact of the matter is: it's going to work out how it works out and it's never the be all end all. Chico says but what is the harm in being kind then? And lou says there is actually no harm in not being kind as long as you're not cruel and it's going to take too much time to be as kind as would be required to create any significant change. And we're too fvcking BROKE to be kind -- as for the rest of it -- the crude quips - get over it -- it's just an expression. Do I flip over your stupid ass analogies - no I just walk away and end up insulting your sensitive ass. I dont have time for you CHICO!! Hmm... my inner Lou rather won out in that... but on the OTHER hand this whole post is my inner chico so really who's winning?

SEE WHAT YOU"VE DONE TO ME HERE?????



You know... that's when the simplicity of Ken Daneyko is all you can turn to! :evil:

there now that's solved :evil:
  • 0

I'm here for the party


#278 DaneykoIsGod

DaneykoIsGod

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,187 posts

Posted 27 September 2011 - 09:35 AM

Man this thread is my nightmare -- it's thrown my whole Devils perception off kilter pitting my two favorites against each other -- Chico vs Lou. It's like one side of my personality against the other....

:saddevil: only Chico could get me to doubt Lou.

and only Chico badmouthing Lou could make me doubt Chico.

My problem is I have an inner-chico - and an inner-Lou and .. well this conflict is unresolvable in my mind because they can't be split. and that doubt both cast on each other is like the personification of my fatal flaw.... my inner Lou says who gives a fvck what Chico has to say and that unto itself a fatal blow. Chico saying Lou is SO obtuse so purposefully obtuse well thats another death knell.

But Life has taught me both are correct Chico will always seek a path with some dream that he's making a difference and lou will always know, fact of the matter is: it's going to work out how it works out and it's never the be all end all. Chico says but what is the harm in being kind then? And lou says there is actually no harm in not being kind as long as you're not cruel and it's going to take too much time to be as kind as would be required to create any significant change. And we're too fvcking BROKE to be kind -- as for the rest of it -- the crude quips - get over it -- it's just an expression. Do I flip over your stupid ass analogies - no I just walk away and end up insulting your sensitive ass. I dont have time for you CHICO!! Hmm... my inner Lou rather won out in that... but on the OTHER hand this whole post is my inner chico so really who's winning?

SEE WHAT YOU"VE DONE TO ME HERE?????



You know... that's when the simplicity of Ken Daneyko is all you can turn to! :evil:

there now that's solved :evil:


This forum would be so damned boring without you, PK.
  • 0
Posted Image

"I don't like those Rangers fans from New Jersey." - Jim Dowd




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users