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GDT: New Jersey Devils @ New York Rangers 7pm


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#261 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 10:17 PM

Jeez, I never thought Zach would be the kind of guy to get all butthurt over a quality player joining the team ... er ... I mean some big mean poopyhead coming to steal his thunder. And probably kick his dog, too.

Has Zach been hanging out with Manta or something?
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#262 SterioDesign

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 11:14 PM

if Parise walks... im pretty sure Lou is going to make a solid run at either Webber, Rinne or Sutter
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#263 jagknife

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 11:30 PM

if Parise walks... im pretty sure Lou is going to make a solid run at either Webber, Rinne or Sutter


with approx $13 million plus, in space [current cap + Parise] we could easily afford 2 of those 3.
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#264 Chorske17

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 01:15 AM

like someone said, if Kovy being here has any bearing on his decision to stay, gtfo Zach. You dont waste a chance to get the leading goal scorer of the last decade. People may say its the contract, but Zach can easily get a 10/75 deal here


People come and go, but GREAT teams are built to last. Look at the past. I believe it was Churchill who said "The further back you look the further forward you shall see." If you look back Kovalchuk was a one man show in Atlanta and NOT a team player. Fast forward to today... Nothin' new. Great ability, great skill, but will NEVER be a two-way player (see plus/minus regardless of what you think of the stat it doesn't lie THAT much) or a guy who brings the rest of team or even his line to the next level. I'd rather have spent less for two guys who know how to win than someone who hasn't made it past the first round. Why is it that he was the best player in Atlanta and they never won... Hmm...

This New Devils approach (since signing Kovalchuk) is not for me. I feel as though they have handicapped themselves and so far I'm right.
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#265 Onddeck

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 02:04 AM

im with chimiara... if zach leaves i would be absolutely lividdddd... you dont let a guy of his caliber walk out on your team. i dont care if you are the gm, or a guy on the boards who thinks he knows what he's talking about.. We have kovy, sure, and adding a hustling playmaker that gives everything he has on the ice every night would certainly only be irreplaceable to this team.

dont act like losing him isn't a big deal. i know you all know it would be a huge
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#266 NJDevs4978

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 05:01 AM

Jeez, I never thought Zach would be the kind of guy to get all butthurt over a quality player joining the team ... er ... I mean some big mean poopyhead coming to steal his thunder. And probably kick his dog, too.

Has Zach been hanging out with Manta or something?


Hanging out with Langenbrunner probably has a similar effect :P
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#267 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 06:33 AM

Jeez, I never thought Zach would be the kind of guy to get all butthurt over a quality player joining the team ... er ... I mean some big mean poopyhead coming to steal his thunder. And probably kick his dog, too.

Has Zach been hanging out with Manta or something?


It all really depends on Chico being 100% accurate with what he told skeet, but what I don't get is, if Zach feels this way, why tell anyone...especially Chico. Zach's gotta know that Chico talks to fans pretty openly. Might as well just keep it to himself.

Two things give me hope: his quotes in the media (for what they're worth...), and the fact that he hasn't demanded a trade (the way Morrison and Guerin did). Because if Chico's story is accurate, he sounds angry enough to do that.
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#268 RowdyFan42

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 08:30 AM

People come and go, but GREAT teams are built to last. Look at the past. I believe it was Churchill who said "The further back you look the further forward you shall see." If you look back Kovalchuk was a one man show in Atlanta and NOT a team player. Fast forward to today... Nothin' new. Great ability, great skill, but will NEVER be a two-way player (see plus/minus regardless of what you think of the stat it doesn't lie THAT much) or a guy who brings the rest of team or even his line to the next level. I'd rather have spent less for two guys who know how to win than someone who hasn't made it past the first round.

He's getting better with the two-way play. What a difference coaching (Lemaire) makes! Granted, he'll never be your classic Devils defensive-minded forward, but he doesn't have to be that. As long as he's not a liability on defense, I'm happy.

Why is it that he was the best player in Atlanta and they never won... Hmm...

Name one Kovalchuk-led Thrashers team that was of better quality than the Devils teams he's been on. You might say, "That's my point!", but what I mean is, take Kovy off of those Thrashers teams and are they any good? Would they have been better without him? Not even a player of his caliber can make truly bad teams significantly better.

This New Devils approach (since signing Kovalchuk) is not for me. I feel as though they have handicapped themselves and so far I'm right.

You mean the approach of trying to score some goals rather than hoping to win every game 1-0? Those days are over, they've been over since the lockout. Gotta keep up with the times, and that's one thing Lou's had a real hard time doing.
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#269 SterioDesign

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 08:44 AM

im with chimiara... if zach leaves i would be absolutely lividdddd... you dont let a guy of his caliber walk out on your team. i dont care if you are the gm, or a guy on the boards who thinks he knows what he's talking about.. We have kovy, sure, and adding a hustling playmaker that gives everything he has on the ice every night would certainly only be irreplaceable to this team.

dont act like losing him isn't a big deal. i know you all know it would be a huge


100% agreed, some folks here are in denial big time. The one year deal is terrible and for everyone here who said it was genius because of his knee well Zach said somewhere that his knee wasnt even brought up in contract talks at all so there you have it.

Plus with that godamn Don Meehan who seem to make most of his clients a pain in the ass to sign (Stamkos, Doughty, Parise) all he's doing is teaching them to be greedier, im pretty sure he doesnt care where the player endup

Now not only we have to make sure we have a good year, for the team but also to convince him to stay, he may not like the coach, he may not like to be surrounded by awkward Swedish players (lol who knows?), missing his best bud and linemates for awhile is also not helping.

i can only hope that everything he told the media about him wanting to resign here was true and that his agent force him to test free agency. At this point i cant see how he wouldnt. That plus Lou is OBVIOUSLY gonna wait till the end of the playoffs to start the discussions
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#270 Legion15

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 10:44 AM

Coming to NJ no longer means winning and contending.


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#271 Triumph

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:05 AM

You mean the approach of trying to score some goals rather than hoping to win every game 1-0? Those days are over, they've been over since the lockout. Gotta keep up with the times, and that's one thing Lou's had a real hard time doing.


They aren't over. They're back. In fact, they're back more than ever - imagine a team that scores no goals and allows no goals, and breaks even in the shootout. That team would be the best team in the league. They'd have 123 points. It stands to reason that having a lower scoring and better defensive team means more overtime games and more chances for an extra point.

http://drivingplay.b...06-and-its.html

The average team scored 224 goals last year. Let's look at what happened from 2000 to 2004?

2000: 225
2001: 226
2002: 215
2003: 218
2004: 211

So yeah, scoring is *slightly* up from then, but not to the 05-06 level of 248. The philosophies should be quite similar.

Edited by Triumph, 23 September 2011 - 11:06 AM.

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#272 Chorske17

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:12 AM

He's getting better with the two-way play. What a difference coaching (Lemaire) makes! Granted, he'll never be your classic Devils defensive-minded forward, but he doesn't have to be that. As long as he's not a liability on defense, I'm happy.


That is the thing, HE IS a liability on defense... especially on the powerplay.

Name one Kovalchuk-led Thrashers team that was of better quality than the Devils teams he's been on. You might say, "That's my point!", but what I mean is, take Kovy off of those Thrashers teams and are they any good? Would they have been better without him? Not even a player of his caliber can make truly bad teams significantly better.


You have a point and I didn't quite mean it like that. I didn't mean just removed Kovalchuk from a past team and see how they do, I meant the Thrashers would've been given something for him either in trade or had more money to spend. I think the following year could have easily been a playoff years if he wasn't on the team. He was number one in scoring, but still a NEGATIVE in plus/minus when the other top 3 players were above +5.

2005-06 SEE team here: http://hockeydb.com/...0017902006.html


You mean the approach of trying to score some goals rather than hoping to win every game 1-0? Those days are over, they've been over since the lockout. Gotta keep up with the times, and that's one thing Lou's had a real hard time doing.


No,I did not mean the approach of trying to score 1 goal or hold onto a lead for most of the game. I can see why you thought that way, but I was referring to the "no player is above the team". It is very apparent that Kovalchuk is above the rest of the team in being allowed to make certain mistakes, the HORRID +/-, defensive-lapses, and so on. I can understand why the team doesn't mention it, but hearing Chico say, "oh that isn't his fault" so many times last year in addition to the blinder put on by other fans was just plain ignorant.

He's getting better with the two-way play. What a difference coaching (Lemaire) makes! Granted, he'll never be your classic Devils defensive-minded forward, but he doesn't have to be that. As long as he's not a liability on defense, I'm happy.


That is the thing, HE IS a liability on defense... especially on the powerplay.

Name one Kovalchuk-led Thrashers team that was of better quality than the Devils teams he's been on. You might say, "That's my point!", but what I mean is, take Kovy off of those Thrashers teams and are they any good? Would they have been better without him? Not even a player of his caliber can make truly bad teams significantly better.


You have a point and I didn't quite mean it like that. I didn't mean just removed Kovalchuk from a past team and see how they do, I meant the Thrashers would've been given something for him either in trade or had more money to spend. I think the following year could have easily been a playoff years if he wasn't on the team. He was number one in scoring, but still a NEGATIVE in plus/minus when the other top 3 players were above +5.

2005-06 SEE team here: http://hockeydb.com/...0017902006.html


You mean the approach of trying to score some goals rather than hoping to win every game 1-0? Those days are over, they've been over since the lockout. Gotta keep up with the times, and that's one thing Lou's had a real hard time doing.


No,I did not mean the approach of trying to score 1 goal or hold onto a lead for most of the game. I can see why you thought that way, but I was referring to the "no player is above the team". It is very apparent that Kovalchuk is above the rest of the team in being allowed to make certain mistakes, the HORRID +/-, defensive-lapses, and so on. I can understand why the team doesn't mention it, but hearing Chico say, "oh that isn't his fault" so many times last year in addition to the blinder put on by other fans was just plain ignorant.
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#273 Triumph

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:21 AM

Chorske: Among the many stupid things about +/- is that it counts short handed goals. Kovalchuk is a forward playing the point. So in the season you cite, 2005-06, Kovalchuk scored 27 power play goals. But his team allowed 10 short handed goals, probably most of those with him on the ice. Still, that number came in under league average. But Kovalchuk was still probably docked 8 minuses for that. So you say 'aha, but his teammates were all mostly on the ice too, shouldn't they have been docked as well?' And the answer is yes, but a lot of them also played short-handed. Marian Hossa had 7 short-handed goals, that's a free +7 right there. Marc Savard played 80 short handed minutes and had 1 SHG, and was probably on the ice for others.

You won't get any argument from me that Marian Hossa is a better player than Ilya Kovalchuk, but you've got to realize that since Kovalchuk doesn't kill penalties and does play most of the power play, his +/- is going to have a few free minuses in there every year that would not be on other players. He won't be a -26 this year, I expect him to be between +10 and -10.

Edited by Triumph, 23 September 2011 - 11:27 AM.

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#274 devlman

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:39 AM

They aren't over. They're back. In fact, they're back more than ever - imagine a team that scores no goals and allows no goals, and breaks even in the shootout. That team would be the best team in the league. They'd have 123 points. It stands to reason that having a lower scoring and better defensive team means more overtime games and more chances for an extra point.

http://drivingplay.b...06-and-its.html

The average team scored 224 goals last year. Let's look at what happened from 2000 to 2004?

2000: 225
2001: 226
2002: 215
2003: 218
2004: 211

So yeah, scoring is *slightly* up from then, but not to the 05-06 level of 248. The philosophies should be quite similar.


Dont look at what the average team scored as its meaningless, but the total goals scored league-wide.
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#275 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:43 AM

They aren't over. They're back. In fact, they're back more than ever - imagine a team that scores no goals and allows no goals, and breaks even in the shootout. That team would be the best team in the league. They'd have 123 points. It stands to reason that having a lower scoring and better defensive team means more overtime games and more chances for an extra point.


I imagine that team wouldn't last very long in the playoffs.
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#276 Triumph

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:57 AM

Dont look at what the average team scored as its meaningless, but the total goals scored league-wide.


Huh? No. Multiply all those numbers by 30, and add a number between 15 and -15, and you'll have your answer, if you really need it. The average number of goals is the total goals scored in the league divided by the number of teams, and I assume it's rounded to the nearest whole number.
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#277 Onddeck

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 01:28 PM

I hope (and think) that Lou is smart enough to know we must keep Parise
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#278 RowdyFan42

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 01:51 PM

No,I did not mean the approach of trying to score 1 goal or hold onto a lead for most of the game. I can see why you thought that way, but I was referring to the "no player is above the team". It is very apparent that Kovalchuk is above the rest of the team in being allowed to make certain mistakes, the HORRID +/-, defensive-lapses, and so on. I can understand why the team doesn't mention it, but hearing Chico say, "oh that isn't his fault" so many times last year in addition to the blinder put on by other fans was just plain ignorant.

I don't think it's because he's a superstar, though. I think it's because he comes from a system where he was never taught differently. He was a one-man offensive show in Atlanta because he could get away with it. He's way too good offensively to send him down to the AHL and let him develop his defensive skills (not to mention he'd never clear waivers), so the Devils have to let him make his mistakes in the NHL. What's the alternative, nail him to the bench and only use him on the power play? He's improving, and hopefully DeBoer can keep up the good work Lemaire started.
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#279 Pepperkorn

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:47 PM

Just getting to reading this stuff.

Sounds like chico's got sand in his shorts. The organization is all strung out - I knwo how that is. Is Lou burnt out - is everyone burnt out on Lou? :noclue:

A major problem is Lou is a sh!tty liar - and a sh!tty manipulator of people. He tells the truth and then when he just doesn't have fvcking time for you he's lies out his ass and he looks like a real jackass - a distrustful, disdainful lying old scunner who honestly thinks you're THAT stupid. :rolleyes: I've seen him do it on a small scale and seen how his people react - he'll leave people holding the bag and scutter off to do more important work. He looks so feeble and weak when he pulls that sh!t.

Maybe he fears confrontation?

ANYHOW -- I can imagine Lou making Chico feel like an a$$hole -- you know, and that's infuriating. and it'll color how Chico sees and hears things. There is definitely truth in there. We all can feel it... but which part is the truth. Chico seems to have a shell of steel - but he's got delicate sensibilities on the interior. Lou's crude impatience is probably a little offensive to him. It'll not only color how he hears what people have to say - people will also want to tell him what he wants to hear. Heh heh... that chico -- what a gossip!
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#280 Pepperkorn

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 10:12 PM

as for Zach -- I have no read on the guy. He's a very clean thinker and just smart enough - and just stupid enough to be a pretty blank slate. so I only have his dad's past experience that i am aware of at least to go on. loyalty .. on ice - to your team. Off ice -- it's a business like everything else. He's a commodity.


what I like is (on teh Devils - I have to say with Lou - with Lou's organization) there is always a deeply shared affection for hockey. dammitall and it's infuriating that that's what it comes down to... because it makes everything that much harder.

Zach... He's not a Joe Sakic. He can't bring the hockey with him -- I mean the hockey but, you know -- he'll play the game and play it well wherever he goes. He's a Shanahan. he'll get pulled - he'll do the NHL thing not the hockey thing I think is as close as I can come to articulating how it is. There is somethign deeply ingrained that's -- well it's not Sakic is all I can say

Much as I didnt' like it Niedermayer takes hockey with him - in fact he pulls it out of his back pocket and dusts it off - its' irritating how a guy can do that have such little regard for it and yet it's just there for him - 'cause he loves it... sometimes. weenie. and Joe Sakic -- I mean -- hockey is like... his clothes... his body odor. "dude -- you've got hockey on" "Oh this? Yeah -- I just... I just have that... yeah cool, isn't it?" <_< Scott Stevens takes the dearest care of hockey - it's his treasure. Hockey is Marty's best girl... beautiful and so much fun to be with..but fvck her if she turns on him just cause he got a little old... <_< bitch. :giggle: he's groveling to keep her right now so adorable.

but Zach.... I dont know. He's just not old enough yet. What stinks is somewhere down deep -- leaving the Devils... you know you're leaving hockey -- will she follow? Lord knows she wasn't going with Gomez. When he leaves I'll know.... and I wont say staying with the Devils is hands down what's best for him... :noclue:

Edited by Pepperkorn, 23 September 2011 - 10:15 PM.

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