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the Kovalchuk trade


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#41 devlman

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 11:25 AM

People are still having this conversation? :blahblah:
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#42 Joe B

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:07 PM

So your saying Kovalchuk didn't play the first half of 2010? Not going to say that MacLean isn't partially responsible, but if the coach put you on the ice and you don't perform, that is not on the coach 100% I assume your going to blame Bettmen, and the officials too for Kovalchuk's poor play.

The 2009-10 team was one of the best groups in team history (prior to getting Kovy). Lemaire lost the locker room and forced the Kovy trade. Post lock out, we blew some easy chances, but that was no reason to blow up a successful franchise.



So Lou didn't make the trade to acquire a former number 1 overall pick because he became available. He was forced to make the trade. Most teams try to add for the playoff push, most teams don't get as talented a player as a missing piece to there puzzle.

Exactly how often do top 10 talent become available? How is adding a top 10 player blowing up the franchise?

If you think getting kovy means zach is leaving, why can't zach leave even if Kovy doesn't join the team? And if getting kovy might mean zach leaving and the death of the franchise, why isn't zach's injury last year part of the death of that season?
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#43 Pepperkorn

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:34 PM

Manta -- wait a sec. I am confused. I cannot take all of your posts and come up with a unified theory of the Kovalchuk signing resulting in the demise of the Devils as we know and love them.

I read expected outcomes but I have no interconnected reasons. I see a lot of divergence - not your own doing - but nonetheless irrelevant to the actual point.

What EXACTLY does the Kovalchuk signing indicate? What is the detrimental change in philosophy that he is responsible for? Please don't point to things you expect us to lose or things we lost before he was signed (Parise is still here - Marty is going to have to retire) (If you're on Lemaire for killing off offense - then you're not upset about the loss of a defensive system....)

To honestly communicate what you're feeling here we can't have examples by way of explanation --- it's not making logical sense to me when I try to piece it all together.

To say you've said it all before -- I'm telling you you haven't. Nothing fits in to make a logical picture - your contradicting yourself on every point except the one statement - Signing Kovalchuk has already irreparably brought about the demise of the Devils.

How?
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#44 Pepperkorn

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:37 PM

I wish we coudl all be untied :o :rofl UNITED and just get Manta to articulate how signing kovalchuk has brought down the Devils now and forever "until he's bought out like Rolston" as Manta wrote in another thread.

All this jibber jabber on one point or another isnt' getting us any answer and no one has Manta on the run.

You can't get him on this until he articulates the problem with the signing in a nutshell. You all get pulled off into different arguments and he choses to respond to the questions that get us no further to the real answer to our real single question.

What did the Devils lose in signing Kovalchuk?

Edited by Pepperkorn, 26 October 2011 - 12:47 PM.

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#45 RowdyFan42

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:39 PM

So your saying Kovalchuk didn't play the first half of 2010? Not going to say that MacLean isn't partially responsible, but if the coach put you on the ice and you don't perform, that is not on the coach 100% I assume your going to blame Bettmen, and the officials too for Kovalchuk's poor play.

So it's Kovalchuk's fault the team got off to their historically-bad start? The team's problems went far beyond Kovalchuk not performing. Removing him wouldn't have made a difference.

The 2009-10 team was one of the best groups in team history (prior to getting Kovy). Lemaire lost the locker room and forced the Kovy trade.

Well then, there you go. Ilya Kovalchuk didn't destroy the New Jersey Devils, Jacques Lemaire did. :blahblah:

Post lock out, we blew some easy chances, but that was no reason to blow up a successful franchise.

Blowing an easy chance once is one thing. Blowing easy chances consistently, year after year, is a sign that something's broken. Post-lockout, the pre-lockout Devils philosophy wasn't working anymore. Too bad it took Lou half a decade to realize, come to terms with, and do something about it. Just to be clear, though: one trade does not constitute blowing up the franchise. This merely accelerated a needed shift in philosophy.

Now, your other point, which is that Kovalchuk costs us Parise. There is enough money for both. If Parise leaves because he can't handle not being the only elite player on the team, then that's on Parise. If he leaves because Lou refuses to give him the money he's worth, that's on Lou. Wouldn't Parise only wanting to stay if he gets to be top banana ALSO go against your TEAM idea?

If you think getting kovy means zach is leaving, why can't zach leave even if Kovy doesn't join the team? And if getting kovy might mean zach leaving and the death of the franchise, why isn't zach's injury last year part of the death of that season?

Hush, guys, that's far too logical.
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#46 Mitico12

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:52 PM

Bottom line, Kovy's got a scorer's ego. If you make him the center of the team's universe, perhaps it will work out well for that team. If you make him a supplemental part of the team's universe, it could backfire.

He's russian, and with no offense to anyone here, the only two Russians I would trust on my team are:

Sergei Brylin and Pavol Datsyuk

Russian players are ego-driven, money-satisfied athletes. Team success with the newer generation of Russians means little...

Just ask Alexander Semin...

Edited by Mitico12, 26 October 2011 - 12:54 PM.

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#47 Pepperkorn

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:07 PM

Mitco that's fine for a bottom line -- and it's yours.

But what is Manta's that every move the team makes with the exception of the Larssen draft - is the fault of the Kovalchuk signing. Every post is negative. I dont mind that but I do not understand how.

The winning Devils of years past were built very much around Slava Fetisov so his being Russian won't cut it for Manta either. For him, it's something else.
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#48 SterioDesign

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:22 PM

Mitco that's fine for a bottom line -- and it's yours.

But what is Manta's that every move the team makes with the exception of the Larssen draft - is the fault of the Kovalchuk signing. Every post is negative. I dont mind that but I do not understand how.

The winning Devils of years past were built very much around Slava Fetisov so his being Russian won't cut it for Manta either. For him, it's something else.


im pretty sure Manta is just trolling... he can't be serious really. He's ignoring any questions that would tell us exactly what the problem is or he's answering with suppositions
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#49 EdgeControl

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:25 PM

This trade is a travesty, and we need to get jamie langenbrunner back ASAP! then things will be OK and correct the doings of the evil jacques lemaire :rolleyes: :horse:
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#50 njdevsftw

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 05:14 PM

Russian players are ego-driven, money-satisfied athletes. Team success with the newer generation of Russians means little...

Just ask Alexander Semin...


Unlike American athletes who are all about self sacrifice and team spirit. Just ask A-Rod, Kobe, Shaq etc.
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#51 MantaRay

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:48 AM

im pretty sure Manta is just trolling... he can't be serious really. He's ignoring any questions that would tell us exactly what the problem is or he's answering with suppositions


Actually, I have answered these questions, over and over, but no one really wants to listen. People here tend to parse out the words and focus on things I didn't say, but maybe heard someplace else (e.g. "Manta hates Kovy", blah, blah, blah).

I understand many of you are blinded by your passion and can't see beyond an individual player and most of you will rationalize everything anyway if it is not what you want to hear.

Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.
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#52 SMantzas

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:50 AM

Actually, I have answered these questions, over and over, but no one really wants to listen. People here tend to parse out the words and focus on things I didn't say, but maybe heard someplace else (e.g. "Manta hates Kovy", blah, blah, blah).

I understand many of you are blinded by your passion and can't see beyond an individual player and most of you will rationalize everything anyway if it is not what you want to hear.

Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

I know the season is VERY young, but what would make you think we cant make the playoffs this year? We're4-2-1 with an extremely difficult schedule so far, and are missing 2 of our top 3 centers. DeBoer is a fine coach....he wont let the troops slip
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#53 MantaRay

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:55 AM

I know the season is VERY young, but what would make you think we cant make the playoffs this year? We're4-2-1 with an extremely difficult schedule so far, and are missing 2 of our top 3 centers. DeBoer is a fine coach....he wont let the troops slip


I think DeBoer is a very good, coach but we just don't have the quality talent to compete, particularly on D.
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#54 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:01 AM

I think DeBoer is a very good, coach but we just don't have the quality talent to compete, particularly on D.


But you called the group in 2009-10 one of the best the franchise has ever had, and this defense is equal or better.
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#55 MantaRay

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:06 AM

But you called the group in 2009-10 one of the best the franchise has ever had, and this defense is equal or better.


Your joking right?
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#56 Devilsfan118

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:18 AM

I understand many of you are blinded by your passion and can't see beyond an individual player and most of you will rationalize everything anyway if it is not what you want to hear.


Pot calling the kettle black, no?
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#57 sundstrom

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:32 AM

Your joking right?


YOU'RE joking, right?

Do you really believe that

Martin (who got hurt) - Oduya
Greene - Salvador
White - Mottau

is better than

Tallinder-Larsson
Fayne-Greene (who is equal or better to his 09/10 version)
Volchenkov-Salvador

i would argue that the reason that 09/10 defense was so good was because marty was really good. the quality of these players are MUCH better than the 09/10 team.

This current squad is 4-2-1 against a pretty tough schedule missing it's top line center for all games and it's 2nd line center for one of them (going on obviously much more). There is no question that 09/10 team overachieved in the first half. If you want to continue to debate the effectiveness of a kovalchuk type player and if the style of play is worth the investment, that's a good discussion.

but to say he's the reason for last year (which was 90% a combination of Mac uselessness, Lou cap mismanagement, Parise injury and Langenbrunner unhappiness - yes this was a big thing) is just looking for a scape goat to further your argument and trying to continue to say that the trade was a mistake just makes you come off as a stubborn ass who refuses to believe that water is wet. in absolutely NO way was the trade a bad move. as it has proven, it was an EXCELLENT trade. The new contract really has nothing to do with it.
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#58 Pepperkorn

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:39 AM

Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.



I really do want to hear - but I think it's all getting garbled in the various aggressive questions you try to answer. I understand the result but I do not understand the reason. I can't pick out specific responses to the questions below from your posts:

Why is the signing of Kovalchuk going to result in the Devils missing the playoffs in the next few years?

Why will the signing of Kovalchuk result in the loss of Parise?

Why is losing the only logical conclusion to the Kovachuk signing?

How are the Devils better off without Kovalchuk?

What change in philosophy is the direct result of the Kovalchuk signing (not vice versa one has to assume from the wording of your posts)?
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#59 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:42 AM

Your joking right?


The top 6 defensemen from 2009-10 in terms of games played, including average TOI:
Colin White (81, 20:04)
Mike Mottau (79, 22:16)
Bryce Salvador (79, 18:52)
Andy Greene (78, 23:32)
Mark Fraser (61, 12:23)
Johnny Oduya (40, 21:11)

The top 6 defenseman thus far in 2011-12 (all of whom have started all 7 games) in terms of average TOI:
Adam Larsson (23:52)
Henrik Tallinder (20:51)
Andy Greene (19:55)
Mark Fayne (18:48)
Anton Volchenkov (18:00)
Bryce Salvador (17:08)

Considering how awful Mark Fraser is and how awful everyone thought Mottau was, I don't see how that 2009-10 blueline is any better than this year's.
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#60 NJDevs4978

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:43 AM

The Devils better have a 100-point season this year and re-sign Zach so these 'arguments' can finally die forever.
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