83 replies to this topic

[Pepperkorn]

YOU'RE joking, right?

(insert a post refuting an assumed answer never ACTUALLY provided by Manta himself in any specific way)

See posts like this provide answers for Manta - we answer our own questions without giving him a chance to elaborate in a way that makes logical sense to us. We will continue to go in circles until we all stop responding for him and ask for his response.

We're all so busy asking questions with an eye to being given highly refutable response that we don't ever actually get an answer - just a mishmash of generalities that really serve no purpose for anyone. We dont understand his point any more clearly.

Edited by Pepperkorn, 27 October 2011 - 11:57 AM.

[justdo3043]

Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

this is terrible....quickly lets mince his words into something more optimistic

[Triumph]

the funniest part of the argument to me is that manta thinks one of the worst teams new jersey has iced since 1993 (the 09-10 devils, probably only the 05-06 team were worse) were actually one of the best. without andy greene stepping up and becoming a top 4 D and the power play deciding to shoot at 20%, that team would've been in huge trouble.

[NewarkDevil5]

Manta, I've got a question for you: what did you think of the Alex Mogilny trade? You know, the one that sent Brendan Morrison who was supposed to become our star center (and actually lived up to more of his hype than any of the people in the Kovalchuk) and Denis Pederson who at the time was being groomed into a replacement for Bobby Carpenter as our shutdown 3rd line center in exchange for a supposedly selfish, halfway washed up Russian enigma of a scorer whose reputation was that he wouldn't backcheck?

Then Mogilny even got his #89 which definitely showed that he was above the team. How did that trade work out as far as destroying our team's concept? I seem to remember us winning some big silver trophy because of that trade.

We gave up far more valuable pieces to get Mogilny than we ever gave for Kovalchuk and he had way less left in his tank.

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[DaneykoIsGod]

Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

this is terrible....quickly lets mince his words into something more optimistic

Phew ... that's some serious turd polishing you're looking for. Here goes nothing:

Bottomline:

or

Bottomline: Paint thinner is delicious.

Take your pick.

[Random Poster]

Manta, I've got a question for you: what did you think of the Alex Mogilny trade? You know, the one that sent Brendan Morrison who was supposed to become our star center (and actually lived up to more of his hype than any of the people in the Kovalchuk) and Denis Pederson who at the time was being groomed into a replacement for Bobby Carpenter as our shutdown 3rd line center in exchange for a supposedly selfish, halfway washed up Russian enigma of a scorer whose reputation was that he wouldn't backcheck?

Then Mogilny even got his #89 which definitely showed that he was above the team. How did that trade work out as far as destroying our team's concept? I seem to remember us winning some big silver trophy because of that trade.

We gave up far more valuable pieces to get Mogilny than we ever gave for Kovalchuk and he had way less left in his tank.

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The difference is Mogilny was the missing piece to an already solid team with plans for a long Spring of hockey both in 2000 and 2001 and it worked.

Edited by SJP20, 27 October 2011 - 12:31 PM.

[NewarkDevil5]

Yes, but at the point that he was brought in that team hadn't made it past round 2 of the playoffs since winning it all in 1995: a total of 4 years. Sound familiar? At the point that we traded for Kovalchuk we hadn't made it past the second round since winning it all in 2003: a total of 5 seasons. We were supposedly a playoff choking declining team that got Robbie Ftorek fired with 8 games to go because even though we were leading the division we had started slumping again at just the wrong time. To call it a finishing touch makes perfect sense in the hindsight that saw us win a cup, but at the time it was by no means looking like a sure thing.

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[Devil Dan 56]

Your joking right?

Care to explain HOW the 09-10 defense was better? Because so far you keep asking people if they are serious, and then ducking the question, and then saying we don't understand. Explain how the defenses that myself, Sundstrom, and DaneykoIsGod have listed are different.

[Random Poster]

Yes, but at the point that he was brought in that team hadn't made it past round 2 of the playoffs since winning it all in 1995: a total of 4 years. Sound familiar? At the point that we traded for Kovalchuk we hadn't made it past the second round since winning it all in 2003: a total of 5 seasons. We were supposedly a playoff choking declining team that got Robbie Ftorek fired with 8 games to go because even though we were leading the division we had started slumping again at just the wrong time. To call it a finishing touch makes perfect sense in the hindsight that saw us win a cup, but at the time it was by no means looking like a sure thing.

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The Devils of 2000 was a perfect example of a team that was a contender adding a piece they thought would pay immediate dividends into the Spring and following season. They felt they needed a player like Mogilny to go deeper into the Playoffs and make them a two line threat to defend and improve the PP. There were hockey people at the time who thought Mogs would be revitalized here and he was, it just didn't happen full bloom until 2001. Sure, Mogs didn't at all look like a superhero in 2000 but he scored a few big goals and he made opponents aware of his still dangerous skill level. His presence was as big as anything.

Even if they failed in the two years of Mogilny, the deal still made sense and you do it 100 times over when you were in the position they were in.

It can be said you do the same with Kovalchuk, which is true because you always add that talent level for spare parts at any time. However, the 09-10 Devils were not in the same position as the 99-00 Devils which is where the similarities of the acquistions of each player ends.

Kovalchuk was added to change the Devils and to hopefully contend again. Mogilny was added to help them win a Cup in the now.

[Zubie#8]

Care to explain HOW the 09-10 defense was better? Because so far you keep asking people if they are serious, and then ducking the question, and then saying we don't understand. Explain how the defenses that myself, Sundstrom, and DaneykoIsGod have listed are different.

2008-2009 - Mottau, Salvador, White, Greene, Martin, Oduya 209 Goals Against
2009-2010 - Mottau, Salvador, White, Greene, Martin, Oduya 191 Goals Against
2010-2011 - White, Greene, Tallinder, Volchenkov, Fayne, Salmela 209 Goals Against Even with our atrocious first half.

This years defense and last years defense pretty much rank up with the 08-10 defense, hopefully we will be even better this year. That was a pretty dumb statement from manta

Edited by Zubie#8, 27 October 2011 - 01:36 PM.

[RowdyFan42]

Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

Yes, Zach Parise wants to play for a franchise that places little value on offense and likely would have held him back from achieving his full offensive potential. He has no interest whatsoever in being teammates and possibly linemates with one of the top offensive talents in the league.

[RowdyFan42]

Kovalchuk was added to change the Devils and to hopefully contend again. Mogilny was added to help them win a Cup in the now.

I don't disagree with this, but I would also argue that winning a Cup now (before Marty and Lou retire) is very much a goal of the Devils.

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

Yes, and the Devils will win the Stanley Cup as you predicted they would last year.

Tri, I could care less what you think as you have never brought anything valid to the "debate" table. You rarely know what your talking about. You can hide behind fanciful numbers to impress the novices and uninitiated.

You are also great at reneging on wagers when your caught and your BS doesn't fly.

Take that off your deep end.

If you could care less, then why don't you?

[DaneykoIsGod]

2008-2009 - 209 Goals Against
2009-2010 - 191 Goals Against
2010-2011 - 209 Goals Against Even with our atrocious start.

This years defense and last years defense pretty much rank up with the 08-10 defense, hopefully we will be even better this year. That was a pretty dumb staement from manta

The funny thing is that Manta is actually right. The 2009-10 defense was good enough to help Marty (who put up career average numbers) take home his fifth Jennings. But what makes it funny is that he'll attribute that to the individual players on that blueline way before giving any credit to the coach. Consider that Martin only played 22 games, Mottau logged 22+ minutes/game and Fraser took up space for 61 games. Any logical person is gonna look at that and say "Wow, the coach squeezed a lot out of that barebones defense." But all Manta ever gives Lemaire credit for are player-ruining mind games.

It's still too early to judge this year's blueline on results alone (they're currently 8th in the league in GA/G), but on paper they appear to have better horses, subjective as that may be.

[NewarkDevil5]

I don't disagree with this, but I would also argue that winning a Cup now (before Marty and Lou retire) is very much a goal of the Devils.

I do disagree. Look at Sundstrom's signature for Lou's quote about his namesake. Patrick Sundstrom wasn't famous for his defense. Then look at guys he's traded for over the years: Bernie Nichols, Neal Broten, Stephane Richer, Alexander Mogilny, etc. These were all pure scorers in their heyday. The difference was, and Lou admitted it during various quotes after the Kovalchuk trade and subsequent signing, that in those days you couldn't get those kinds of players in their primes without sacrificing major components. That is why none of them lasted (except Richer and to an extent Mogilny) because none of them were near their primes the way Kovalchuk is. He was just hoping to catch whatever life was left at the tail end of great careers, but that doesn't mean that this team hasn't always placed a premium value on those kinds of players.

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[SterioDesign]

Yes, Zach Parise wants to play for a franchise that places little value on offense and likely would have held him back from achieving his full offensive potential. He has no interest whatsoever in being teammates and possibly linemates with one of the top offensive talents in the league.

very good point here, i never really though of it that way

if anything by getting Kovy it showed that the franchise wanted to put more value on the offense, and zach stated a bunch of time that he thought that the team should use a system with more offense. Lou is also pushing hard to get a PMD but seems like he couldnt get anything yet

a few games before the Kovy trade we were playing Toronto and Zach was FLYING he was literally everywhere and scored 2 quick goals, i would have put lots of money that he was getting a hat trick but the team played safe and defense for the rest of the game and Zach didnt get the hat trick... he may not have scored another goal of course but if they would have kept the pressure im sure he would have scored again.

[Onddeck]

The Devils better have a 100-point season this year and re-sign Zach so these 'arguments' can finally die forever.

hell ya... that would be fantastic... and also because this whole arguement is hard to watch

[NJDevs4978]

hell ya... that would be fantastic... and also because this whole arguement is hard to watch

Conversely, if the Devils miss the playoffs again and Zach does leave, this will never end.

[MantaRay]

The funny thing is that Manta is actually right. The 2009-10 defense was good enough to help Marty (who put up career average numbers) take home his fifth Jennings.

This had a much to do with Lemaire having the right players and initiating them into a solid system.

I would also attribute most of this to the depth of talent we had upfront: Langs, Zajac, Parise, and Elias, Bergsfor, Rolston, even the third Zubrus, Clarkson and Niedermayer chipped in with goals. This made it easier for players like Greene to chip in 30 assists. Not a collection of superstars, but a strong cohesive group.

[Beetlebum]

The trade was a steal the contract is the issue.

Unlike American athletes who are all about self sacrifice and team spirit. Just ask A-Rod, Kobe, Shaq etc.

Big difference they don't play hockey.