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#41 Triumph

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:35 PM

Oh what was I thinking, watching the games is meaningless when analyzing a player, duh! ....some people just apply odd logic to things. You're simply delusional and wrong on everything you have said in this thread. You really should try actually watching the games. You'll see all the qualities of an elite, worldclass goaltender. And he posts the numbers to boot. I'm wastingmy time with this.


I watch plenty of hockey. My point is that you cannot see the difference between goalies. But okay, Rinne is world class, because you said so.
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#42 aylbert

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:03 AM

They're two years apart. How can Bernier be the "Future"


Not in the sense that they play Quick til he retires and then plug in Bernier. But to ease Bernier in. Then again, I don't really follow LA nor watch many of their games... so my opinion only comes from Phil Esposito / Scott Laughlin from my drive home (XM's Home Ice)
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#43 devlman

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 10:08 AM

I watch plenty of hockey. My point is that you cannot see the difference between goalies. But okay, Rinne is world class, because you said so.


Umm so does the rest of the hockey world, and every goalie stat known to man.
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#44 Lateralous

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 12:21 PM

Good move by the Predators. It was mentioned here a few times that they are a salary floor team which is absolutely incorrect. Their owners have stated several times that the money is there to be at the midpoint of the cap and that they are setting themselves up to be able to afford the big 3. It's been speculated that Shea Weber was just waiting to see what happened to the other two before signing a big contract in Nashville because he didn't want to be the only big fish in the pond. If this helps get the ball rolling on the other two, the deal is even better.

Rinne, Weber + Suter signed to long term contracts in Nashville almost guarantees that team they will have a long string of playoff appearances. Basically the poor-mans Stevens, Niedermayer and Brodeur.

Edited by Lateralous, 04 November 2011 - 12:22 PM.

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#45 Neb00rs

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 12:53 PM

This is hilarious, how many teams are going to be handicapped by big goaltender deals.


this
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#46 Triumph

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 01:34 PM

Good move by the Predators. It was mentioned here a few times that they are a salary floor team which is absolutely incorrect. Their owners have stated several times that the money is there to be at the midpoint of the cap and that they are setting themselves up to be able to afford the big 3. It's been speculated that Shea Weber was just waiting to see what happened to the other two before signing a big contract in Nashville because he didn't want to be the only big fish in the pond. If this helps get the ball rolling on the other two, the deal is even better.

Rinne, Weber + Suter signed to long term contracts in Nashville almost guarantees that team they will have a long string of playoff appearances. Basically the poor-mans Stevens, Niedermayer and Brodeur.


they signed the worst one to a terrible deal. they are currently a floor team - if they've been authorized to spend more, great, but their roster does not have a significant amount of fat on it, so it's not like they are going to be able to make signings in addition to these players. they are a smart organization with a good system, but this contract is going to severely hamper them - there's absolutely no guarantees that they won't become a floor team again in the future.
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#47 devlman

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:02 PM

they signed the worst one to a terrible deal. they are currently a floor team - if they've been authorized to spend more, great, but their roster does not have a significant amount of fat on it, so it's not like they are going to be able to make signings in addition to these players. they are a smart organization with a good system, but this contract is going to severely hamper them - there's absolutely no guarantees that they won't become a floor team again in the future.


Again, thats some odd logic you are trying to fit there. If they are currently a floor team or near-the-floor (even with this huge contract) then they wont be hampered from signing more players...Even with a new Weber contract they'll still have space to sign good players.

Great deal by the Preds.
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#48 Quinn01

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:12 PM

Wait...people actually thought there was a chance he was coming here? :rolleyes:
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#49 Triumph

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:38 PM

Again, thats some odd logic you are trying to fit there. If they are currently a floor team or near-the-floor (even with this huge contract) then they wont be hampered from signing more players...Even with a new Weber contract they'll still have space to sign good players.

Great deal by the Preds.


huh? Teams have an internal budget - some teams, like the Rangers, can go over the salary cap, but the teams that are at the salary floor are there by choice, not because they are saving cap room. Right now Nashville doesn't have a second pairing or scoring depth, and they don't have it in part because of their internal budget.

Edited by Triumph, 04 November 2011 - 04:42 PM.

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#50 Lateralous

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:13 PM

they signed the worst one to a terrible deal. they are currently a floor team - if they've been authorized to spend more, great, but their roster does not have a significant amount of fat on it, so it's not like they are going to be able to make signings in addition to these players. they are a smart organization with a good system, but this contract is going to severely hamper them - there's absolutely no guarantees that they won't become a floor team again in the future.



Is your argument that Rinne isn't that good or that you shouldn't spend that much on a goaltender in general?

The sentiment the past few seasons seems to be that you don't need high priced goaltending to win in the playoffs, which is somewhat true since it's a total crapshoot most years. Most goalies in the NHL are capable of stealing a game or series so by securing the top tier guys you're really just increasing your odds that they will play well when needed. That being said, goaltending is still hugly important during the regular season (look at Phoenix the last two seasons).

The key for Nashville is that they have 3 guys who by all accounts want to stay but are waiting for the others to jump first. So while this may be 1.5 million more than you ideally want to pay a goalie, if it helps them lose the reputation of not being able to afford their own UFAs and lock up Suter and Weber, is it worth it? He's also one of the faces of the franchise at this point. I think Nashville is slowly becoming a really good little hockey market and continuing the string of playoff appearances will do nothing but continue to build on the support they have.

As for depth, they do pretty well with the drafting and development. Between Klien, Blum and Ellis, I don't think they have much of a problem on the back end. Every year I watch the draft and wonder why they don't draft a scoring forward, but if they lock up the big 3 and hit on a few forward draft picks, they can make the occational run in the playoffs. Also, teams like the Preds that are always developing good talent will be able to trade for some extra offensive help at the deadline in years they think they have a shot to win after the majority of salary has already been paid. Lindback can probably be used as trade bait for more offense this year with Pickard waiting in the wings.
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#51 Lateralous

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:16 PM

On last thought. Locking up Rinne for 7 years when he's 29 isn't to bad. Goalies primes seem to be about 28-35 which is much later than forwards and defensemen. I don't think Nashville will have to absorb many dead years on the end of this contract. This isn't Luongo's deal. Win-win.
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#52 Triumph

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:51 PM

Is your argument that Rinne isn't that good or that you shouldn't spend that much on a goaltender in general?


Both. Rinne had a .930 SV% season, which is great. It's hard to miss the playoffs when your starter does that. He also had a .911 SV% season the year before that, which is not so good. Hard to make the playoffs unless you have a superb offense or defense. And let's not forget that the Nashville shot counter is one of the most egregious overcounters in the NHL - the Nashville shot counter was NOT one of Dan Ellis's problems.

The sentiment the past few seasons seems to be that you don't need high priced goaltending to win in the playoffs, which is somewhat true since it's a total crapshoot most years. Most goalies in the NHL are capable of stealing a game or series so by securing the top tier guys you're really just increasing your odds that they will play well when needed. That being said, goaltending is still hugly important during the regular season (look at Phoenix the last two seasons).


Why is Phoenix the example? Bryzgalov is not that good. There's this delusion that Phoenix isn't good and that Bryzgalov saved their bacon, but they have a lot of good players that people don't know about. Phoenix is a smart organization and decided to sign no real replacement for Bryz. That's because Phoenix backups had the same save percentage as Bryzgalov during Bryz's tenure as a Coyote. Let's see where Phoenix stands at the end of the year.

You need excellent goaltending to win in the playoffs (or a ridiculously good team that can overcome average goaltending). The thing is, you don't know who the excellent goalies are going to be, necessarily. Paying a premium to increase your chances just isn't worth it when there's decent goalies floating around there available to everyone.

The key for Nashville is that they have 3 guys who by all accounts want to stay but are waiting for the others to jump first. So while this may be 1.5 million more than you ideally want to pay a goalie, if it helps them lose the reputation of not being able to afford their own UFAs and lock up Suter and Weber, is it worth it? He's also one of the faces of the franchise at this point. I think Nashville is slowly becoming a really good little hockey market and continuing the string of playoff appearances will do nothing but continue to build on the support they have.


The problem is, as I said, they have no depth. They don't have any top end scorers. They have these two great D, and then they have a black hole. Right now they're a 43% shots team at even strength, both in all situations and with the score tied. The ways to win when you are that far in the hole is A: great goaltending B: shooting above average C: drawing way more penalties than you take and having excellent special teams. I'm not convinced they will continue to get great goaltending, and shooting above average is really hard and generally not sustainable.

Klein and Blum are below 40% for the season. Those two got run out of the building by NJ. If Nashville does have more money to spend, they should deal for a D man yesterday.

As for depth, they do pretty well with the drafting and development. Between Klien, Blum and Ellis, I don't think they have much of a problem on the back end. Every year I watch the draft and wonder why they don't draft a scoring forward, but if they lock up the big 3 and hit on a few forward draft picks, they can make the occational run in the playoffs. Also, teams like the Preds that are always developing good talent will be able to trade for some extra offensive help at the deadline in years they think they have a shot to win after the majority of salary has already been paid. Lindback can probably be used as trade bait for more offense this year with Pickard waiting in the wings.


When's the last time a goalie was traded for something significant? This is both sarcastic and serious, because I know I am blanking on some moron team that dealt a lot for a goalie recently. Oh yeah, Varlamov. That was silly. But in general, they don't draw a big return.

I like what the Predators organization does and I think they're smart. But they are not very good so far this year, and if they lose one of these D for nothing, they're going to have serious problems. You compare them to New Jersey, but New Jersey had some excellent forwards that Nashville just doesn't have and probably won't have.

Edited by Triumph, 04 November 2011 - 08:53 PM.

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#53 NJDevs4978

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 09:01 PM

When's the last time a goalie was traded for something significant? This is both sarcastic and serious, because I know I am blanking on some moron team that dealt a lot for a goalie recently. Oh yeah, Varlamov. That was silly. But in general, they don't draw a big return.


I think Toskala got a ridiculously high return too, when the Leafs traded for him. Vokoun got traded for a couple of high picks as well.
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#54 Lateralous

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 07:29 AM

Why is Phoenix the example? Bryzgalov is not that good. There's this delusion that Phoenix isn't good and that Bryzgalov saved their bacon, but they have a lot of good players that people don't know about. Phoenix is a smart organization and decided to sign no real replacement for Bryz. That's because Phoenix backups had the same save percentage as Bryzgalov during Bryz's tenure as a Coyote. Let's see where Phoenix stands at the end of the year.


As someone who wants to see Phoenix succeed and stay where they are, I've probably watched 50 Coyotes games over the last two seasons. I'm skeptical of the deal with the Flyers as well considering Bryz didn't show up for the playoffs last season and that will be the only thing that matters in Philadelphia. Still, he did carry that team to two straight playoffs. It's a good example because Nashville can at least ice as much offense as the Coyotes have the past few years (Yandles offense from the back aside). There were so many nights where they got points despite not scoring more than a goal or two and Bryz standing on his head was usually the reason.



The problem is, as I said, they have no depth. They don't have any top end scorers. They have these two great D, and then they have a black hole. Right now they're a 43% shots team at even strength, both in all situations and with the score tied. The ways to win when you are that far in the hole is A: great goaltending B: shooting above average C: drawing way more penalties than you take and having excellent special teams. I'm not convinced they will continue to get great goaltending, and shooting above average is really hard and generally not sustainable.

Klein and Blum are below 40% for the season. Those two got run out of the building by NJ. If Nashville does have more money to spend, they should deal for a D man yesterday.

When's the last time a goalie was traded for something significant? This is both sarcastic and serious, because I know I am blanking on some moron team that dealt a lot for a goalie recently. Oh yeah, Varlamov. That was silly. But in general, they don't draw a big return.

I like what the Predators organization does and I think they're smart. But they are not very good so far this year, and if they lose one of these D for nothing, they're going to have serious problems. You compare them to New Jersey, but New Jersey had some excellent forwards that Nashville just doesn't have and probably won't have.


Here's where I disagree as I think the opposite is true. They have decent depth up front, what they are missing is one or two top end snipers up front. Legwand, Erat, Hornqvist, Fisher and now Colin Wilson are legitimate top 6 forwards. Halischuk and Kostitsyn provide some depth. I realize that after the big 3 sign contracts, they won't be able to just go out and sign that top line forward but it won't take much to get there in a given season. As an example, they're still owed a year on Radulov's entry level contract. If they could get him back next year and aquire another scoring forward at the deadline with a package of Lindback and a pick, you have an instant Stanley Cup contenter.

Anyway, I don't necessarily disagree that sinking a ton of money into a long term contract for a goalie is a smart thing to do. My point is that this was absolutely the right move for the Predators to make at this time IMO.
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#55 Triumph

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:19 AM

As someone who wants to see Phoenix succeed and stay where they are, I've probably watched 50 Coyotes games over the last two seasons. I'm skeptical of the deal with the Flyers as well considering Bryz didn't show up for the playoffs last season and that will be the only thing that matters in Philadelphia. Still, he did carry that team to two straight playoffs. It's a good example because Nashville can at least ice as much offense as the Coyotes have the past few years (Yandles offense from the back aside). There were so many nights where they got points despite not scoring more than a goal or two and Bryz standing on his head was usually the reason.


You ignored my point about Phoenix backups having the same save percentage as Bryzgalov. This is where people get confused - every NHL-caliber goalie is capable of stealing games. How's Phoenix looking so far? Seems fine to me.

Here's where I disagree as I think the opposite is true. They have decent depth up front, what they are missing is one or two top end snipers up front. Legwand, Erat, Hornqvist, Fisher and now Colin Wilson are legitimate top 6 forwards. Halischuk and Kostitsyn provide some depth. I realize that after the big 3 sign contracts, they won't be able to just go out and sign that top line forward but it won't take much to get there in a given season. As an example, they're still owed a year on Radulov's entry level contract. If they could get him back next year and aquire another scoring forward at the deadline with a package of Lindback and a pick, you have an instant Stanley Cup contenter.

Anyway, I don't necessarily disagree that sinking a ton of money into a long term contract for a goalie is a smart thing to do. My point is that this was absolutely the right move for the Predators to make at this time IMO.


It's early, but right now they are pretty much an entire team away (less 2 D men and a goalie) from contending for anything. They're getting brutally outplayed. They faced the weakest team in the playoffs in the 1st round last year, and a fantastic matchup for them (a 1 line team against a team that has 2 amazing D men). They'll need to improve drastically to have a shot at anything.

Edited by Triumph, 05 November 2011 - 10:24 AM.

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#56 Lateralous

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 06:36 PM

You ignored my point about Phoenix backups having the same save percentage as Bryzgalov. This is where people get confused - every NHL-caliber goalie is capable of stealing games. How's Phoenix looking so far? Seems fine to me.



I'm hardly confused, I just don't see the point of making that statement so early in the season, especially when they currently sit outside of the playoffs (I say that somewhat sarcasticly considering how early it is). Obviously any of these guys can steal a game but if Phoenix is going to make the playoffs again, they're going to need someone who does it consistantly. Bryz provided that over the last two years.

You're also selling the Nashville roster rediculously short.
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#57 mmajeski06

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:29 PM

Rinne is proving to be one of the best this year, that's for sure.

In regards to the Devils, Steve Mason will probably be done in Columbus after this season. The talent is there, but I think he's just gone mental or something. Maybe a change of scenery would do him some good. Holy sh*t, did I just suggest that the devils consider Steve Mason?
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#58 SterioDesign

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:35 PM

Rinne is proving to be one of the best this year, that's for sure.

In regards to the Devils, Steve Mason will probably be done in Columbus after this season. The talent is there, but I think he's just gone mental or something. Maybe a change of scenery would do him some good. Holy sh*t, did I just suggest that the devils consider Steve Mason?


Yeah.... You kinda just did that

Edited by SterioDesign, 06 November 2011 - 12:36 PM.

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#59 Triumph

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:37 PM

mason is horrible. if the devils need an AHL goalie, they should consider him.
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#60 Marshall

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:47 PM

Mason? Yeah, why don't we sign Hugh Jessiman as well?
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