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#81 mouse

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:18 PM

Sheep


When we have facts, such as quality of competition and numbers to back up opinions, we're sheep because we don't buy your "I totally saw him make this turnover last night..." argument? You have the right to your opinion, but your arguments border on trolling.
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#82 ohms law

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:27 PM

ok
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#83 ohms law

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:37 PM

It probably seems like trolling because you guys trying to blow me away with your crappy stats in an attempt to force me to change my mind (I know that this thread isn't targeted at me specifically, but you should understand what I mean here) is transparent and unconvincing. It's bringing about a defensive reaction in me... which is probably my own fault. Since I'm an engineer, and I rely on statistics for a living, I'm probably putting too much of my personal thinking into my reactions towards reading some of these replies.

Anyway, I thought about (and am still sorta thinking about it) putting together a video, but... it's a lot of work, and despite my replies here I really don't care if most of you guys share my opinion of Fayne, so... meh.
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#84 Joe B

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:41 PM

No one has mentioned that fayne at times has problems carrying the puck starting in the defensive zone on the 2nd pp unit at times. Not all the time but at least twice (as in a few times in the shift and killed the flow for the 30 seconds are so)within the last 10 games (and I'm not even including the sh goal against last game). Overall he's been good it's just an area that stands out to me mainly because the pp has been bad. Not saying it's been his fault the pp's bad, but it seems to snowball at times.

I am happy with him on the pp when it is set up in general though, and his 5 on 5 as well. Just surprised no one has mentioned it. Not trolling but when discussing a player his faults should be brought up.

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#85 DevsMan84

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:42 PM

It probably seems like trolling because you guys trying to blow me away with your crappy stats in an attempt to force me to change my mind (I know that this thread isn't targeted at me specifically, but you should understand what I mean here) is transparent and unconvincing. It's bringing about a defensive reaction in me... which is probably my own fault. Since I'm an engineer, and I rely on statistics for a living, I'm probably putting too much of my personal thinking into my reactions towards reading some of these replies.

Anyway, I thought about (and am still sorta thinking about it) putting together a video, but... it's a lot of work, and despite my replies here I really don't care if most of you guys share my opinion of Fayne, so... meh.



It is also your very passive-agressive posts that doesn't sit very well with people.

Hell even this post that I am replying to is very passive-agressive.
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#86 ohms law

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:48 PM

It is also your very passive-agressive posts that doesn't sit very well with people.

Hell even this post that I am replying to is very passive-agressive.


Yea well, you guys started sniping at me right off the bat just for expressing my personal opinion. I could have just come out and said "F U" to a few replies here, I suppose (others have done that to me, so...), but... I mean, we're all Devils fans, for one thing. And, I'm new to this forum.

It's obvious that nobody in this thread is open to hearing dissenting opinion anyway. I saw that upon first coming to the thread; I probably should have just left it alone. Seeing that brings about a passive-aggressive position in most people.
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#87 DevsMan84

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:58 PM

Yea well, you guys started sniping at me right off the bat just for expressing my personal opinion. I could have just come out and said "F U" to a few replies here, I suppose (others have done that to me, so...), but... I mean, we're all Devils fans, for one thing. And, I'm new to this forum.

It's obvious that nobody in this thread is open to hearing dissenting opinion anyway. I saw that upon first coming to the thread; I probably should have just left it alone. Seeing that brings about a passive-aggressive position in most people.



Please. I've been called a troll on this board too many times than I can count for my opinions on Clarkson, Tedenby, Marty, and the organization as a whole, so don't try to act like you are the first one as I am not even the first one either.

We were all new at one point and that is fine, but literally you are coming out as passive-agressive and jumping into literally every thread and taking them over with your posts. I even saw you bitching about how you couldn't start your own topic until you hit a certain amount of posts on the Site Issues/FAQ forum.

In the end though, do what you want. I am not a mod nor do I desire to be one. I'm done with talking about this.

Edited by DevsMan84, 04 January 2012 - 04:00 PM.

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#88 Devils731

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 04:04 PM

If I saw some compelling argument to convince me that what my eyes see and what the numbers suggest is wrong, then I might change my opinion.

One word statements like "sheep" aren't convincing nor is saying some stats stink without explaining why or offering something else in rebuttal.
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#89 Triumph

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 04:10 PM

If I saw some compelling argument to convince me that what my eyes see and what the numbers suggest is wrong, then I might change my opinion.

One word statements like "sheep" aren't convincing nor is saying some stats stink without explaining why or offering something else in rebuttal.


Nor would a compilation video of Mark Fayne's mistakes be convincing either, since no defenseman makes the perfect play on every breakout.

Joe: I've been less than impressed with Fayne's work on the power play so far this year.

Edited by Triumph, 04 January 2012 - 04:12 PM.

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#90 Jas0nMacIsaac

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 04:17 PM

Yea well, you guys started sniping at me right off the bat just for expressing my personal opinion. I could have just come out and said "F U" to a few replies here, I suppose (others have done that to me, so...), but... I mean, we're all Devils fans, for one thing. And, I'm new to this forum.

It's obvious that nobody in this thread is open to hearing dissenting opinion anyway. I saw that upon first coming to the thread; I probably should have just left it alone. Seeing that brings about a passive-aggressive position in most people.


Give something valid to consider then people may take you serious. Hearsay about giveaways and puck bobbles are useless. Over the course of the year he has been our most consistent defensmen in terms of keeping the puck out of our zone. You can say that has to do with our forwards which may be partially correct but he helps Elias's line as well.
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#91 ohms law

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 04:26 PM

Yea, because stats with correlation coefficients hovering between +/- 10%, along with counter-hearsay about him being the Devils' "most consistent defensmen" (I'm still waiting to find out what the heck that's supposed to mean...) are so convincing.
*roll eyes*

But whatever. I'm done. You guys just keep on thinking what you want, doesn't matter to me.
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#92 Triumph

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 04:58 PM

Yea, because stats with correlation coefficients hovering between +/- 10%, along with counter-hearsay about him being the Devils' "most consistent defensmen" (I'm still waiting to find out what the heck that's supposed to mean...) are so convincing.
*roll eyes*

But whatever. I'm done. You guys just keep on thinking what you want, doesn't matter to me.


I don't really have any idea what you're talking about. Yeah, I hate the word consistent too, but aside from that, I'm not picking up what you mean about correlation coefficients.
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#93 Jas0nMacIsaac

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 05:01 PM

Yea, because stats with correlation coefficients hovering between +/- 10%, along with counter-hearsay about him being the Devils' "most consistent defensmen" (I'm still waiting to find out what the heck that's supposed to mean...) are so convincing.
*roll eyes*

But whatever. I'm done. You guys just keep on thinking what you want, doesn't matter to me.


I was under the impression that Fenwick has a .62 correlation rate with scoring over infinite sample size. Not sure what's better at the moment.

Yea, because stats with correlation coefficients hovering between +/- 10%, along with counter-hearsay about him being the Devils' "most consistent defensmen" (I'm still waiting to find out what the heck that's supposed to mean...) are so convincing.
*roll eyes*

But whatever. I'm done. You guys just keep on thinking what you want, doesn't matter to me.


Game to game, you know what your getting. With a player like Foster you get terrible game and a good game. I suppose I should have used consistently good.

Edited by Jas0nMacIsaac, 04 January 2012 - 05:04 PM.

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#94 ATLL765

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 05:09 PM

It probably seems like trolling because you guys trying to blow me away with your crappy stats in an attempt to force me to change my mind (I know that this thread isn't targeted at me specifically, but you should understand what I mean here) is transparent and unconvincing. It's bringing about a defensive reaction in me... which is probably my own fault. Since I'm an engineer, and I rely on statistics for a living, I'm probably putting too much of my personal thinking into my reactions towards reading some of these replies.

Anyway, I thought about (and am still sorta thinking about it) putting together a video, but... it's a lot of work, and despite my replies here I really don't care if most of you guys share my opinion of Fayne, so... meh.


I didn't mention one statistic in my response to what you said. I don't think anyone here is trying to attack you personally either. As you mentioned, we're all Devil's fans here, but you seem to be the one who's being a bit hostile because the rest of everyone posting in here agrees with the team's coaching staff in believing that Fayne and Tallinder are our #1 & #2 best d-men on the team.

Yea, because stats with correlation coefficients hovering between +/- 10%, along with counter-hearsay about him being the Devils' "most consistent defensmen" (I'm still waiting to find out what the heck that's supposed to mean...) are so convincing.
*roll eyes*

But whatever. I'm done. You guys just keep on thinking what you want, doesn't matter to me.


You complain about other people using "useless" stats and then you throw up some coefficient bs. You wanna know why everyone knows Fayne is our most consistent d-man? It's because he gets played against the other team's top line, every night, he gets 20+ mins, every night, his +/-(which can be misleading as you said, but is generally a good indicator of play) is only one worse than Tallinder's, yet he's played 6 more games, with Salvador being the only other d-man better than that and Salvador, with the exception of the past couple weeks, had def not been facing the other team's top lines, it was more like 3rd & 4th lines until Tallinder and Greene went down with injuries.


I think my point is that your complaining about everyone in this thread using "crappy" stats to back up their "crappy" arguments, but you haven't done anything of importance to prove your argument to be any better than all of the Fayne believer's. So basically you've told all of us to put our money where our mouth is, which at least I have, yet you have failed to do so yourself.

I do believe I mentioned how you should be quite sure that the Devils have much more serious issues beyond Fayne being an "awful" d-man, since if the coaching staff is so sure of it's decision to continue to play Fayne against other team's top lines, in all important situations through the entire 60 mins of each game. So I'd love to hear how you think the Devils will manage to place anywhere besides 15th in the Conference with a coaching staff so incompetent that it can't even tell that the defenseman that they believe is worthy of being on the top pairing, if not being the best d-man on the team, is really the worst defenseman on the team, is a liability in all 3 zones and in fact deserves to sent down to the AHL since he's just THAT bad.

If you truly believe that what I just said is actually the reality of Mark Fayne and not that he's played far above almost everyone's expectations from the moment he was called up last season until now and that while he probably wouldn't make the top pairing on a team with a top notch d-corps, he would still be a more than solid 2nd pairing d-man and if he continues to progress as he has been, while he most likely won't every becomes a superstar defenseman, will most likely an extremely solid, far above average 2nd pairing d-man for the rest of his career with NJ. I must mention that I only cap him at the 2nd pairing because we have a superstar in the making in Adam Larsson, who, barrring a disaster of some sort, will become the clear #1 defenseman on this team for years to come and because of that Fayne, will be relegated to the 2nd defensive pairing for the fact that he is also Right Handed and for that fact ALONE.

I imagine that if Fayne continues to develop the way he has, he will more than likely be a supremely positionally solid d-man, who is also mobile and has enough of an offensive touch to put up 20-30 points each season over his entire career with NJ.

There is my argument as to why I believe Mark Fayne is a good and consistent defenseman for this team right now and that he will be that and more for this team in the future.
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#95 sundstrom

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 05:12 PM

Yea well, you guys started sniping at me right off the bat just for expressing my personal opinion. I could have just come out and said "F U" to a few replies here, I suppose (others have done that to me, so...), but... I mean, we're all Devils fans, for one thing. And, I'm new to this forum.

It's obvious that nobody in this thread is open to hearing dissenting opinion anyway. I saw that upon first coming to the thread; I probably should have just left it alone. Seeing that brings about a passive-aggressive position in most people.


i wouldn't say that people don't want to hear a dissenting opinion.

look, you're clearly an educated guy (male assumption) and have the ability and chops to say more than the initial "mark fayne sucks. he's a turnover machine." it came out after the initial comment and i for one am glad to have you aboard njdevs. you've clearly got a lot to offer.

i'm all for discourse even if one side doesn't present any attempt at facts as long as it stays above board on both sides.

if you want a good "non-scientific" approach to how you feel about a guy, think about how many times you're yelling at him at the game or on the TV! i'm at just about every home game live and watch most road games on TV. i cannot recall yelling at fayne which, to me, means he's not doing too much stupid sh!t. of course, i'll buy some "advanced stats" as well and that backs up my eye test that he's been a productive guy and going against the opposition's best. he and tallinder have been the best overall defensemen we've had this season.
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#96 Steven M.

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 05:42 PM

i wouldn't say that people don't want to hear a dissenting opinion.

look, you're clearly an educated guy (male assumption) and have the ability and chops to say more than the initial "mark fayne sucks. he's a turnover machine." it came out after the initial comment and i for one am glad to have you aboard njdevs. you've clearly got a lot to offer.

i'm all for discourse even if one side doesn't present any attempt at facts as long as it stays above board on both sides.

if you want a good "non-scientific" approach to how you feel about a guy, think about how many times you're yelling at him at the game or on the TV! i'm at just about every home game live and watch most road games on TV. i cannot recall yelling at fayne which, to me, means he's not doing too much stupid sh!t. of course, i'll buy some "advanced stats" as well and that backs up my eye test that he's been a productive guy and going against the opposition's best. he and tallinder have been the best overall defensemen we've had this season.


I agree with all of this. I haven't quite wrapped my head around all the advanced statistics, but some here clearly have a grasp on them and do a good job of explaining what they mean. I'd like to get more into them. For now though, I agree with your approach. I've been watching almost every game and find that the moments I scream "WTF FAYNE!" are not very often. I tend to notice him playing well positionally and keeping all threats to the outside most of the time.

I just think he's solid. Not flashy, not a big name, you're never gonna see 5,000 Fayne jerseys around the rock, but he is a solid minute eater.
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#97 ohms law

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:19 PM

I was under the impression that Fenwick has a .62 correlation rate with scoring over infinite sample size.


Thank you. You just made (part of) my point perfectly.
I recommend picking up a statistics book and looking up correlation coefficients.

if you want a good "non-scientific" approach to how you feel about a guy, think about how many times you're yelling at him at the game or on the TV! i'm at just about every home game live and watch most road games on TV. i cannot recall yelling at fayne which, to me, means he's not doing too much stupid sh!t. of course, i'll buy some "advanced stats" as well and that backs up my eye test that he's been a productive guy and going against the opposition's best. he and tallinder have been the best overall defensemen we've had this season.


Right here is where I seem to be disconnected from the rest of you. I don't know why exactly, especially since it didn't really happen while I was watching last season (distracted at the team being 9-23 just prior to Christmas, maybe? I don't know), but Fayne seems to be sticking out like a sore thumb to me this season. He faded back into the background nicely for a few weeks there at the end of November and early December, but recently he's started to stick out again. I find myself screaming (in my mind's voice, at least) pretty consistently at his play.

Here's one possible explaination: DeBoer's system combined with Fayne getting ice time against better opponents and in more dangerous situations is exposing his lack of experience at the NHL level. I just don't have the faith that a lot of you seem to have that he'll get better, I guess. The mistakes that I see him make typically seem to come from lack of vision and just plain old bad decision making.
For what it's worth, I agree about Tallinder. I guess that I simply feel that Fayne is being over exposed, or something?

Unfortunately, there really aren't any statistics to cite about this, one way or another, either. That's actually more upsetting (or rather, frustrating) to me than what any of you have to say. Like I said, I tend to live on statistics, so not being able to point to anything just makes this a pissing match between opinions.
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#98 ohms law

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:53 PM

ahem
:(
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#99 DevsMan84

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 08:19 PM

Look theres mark fayne with ANOTHER atrocious defensive play. Down on a knee blocking the pass like he should be then inexplicably stands up and decides to let a cross ice pass across the crease for an easy goal. Of all our dmen that have been hurt this year its a shame that fella hasnt.


You joined this site just to say that crap?
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#100 ohms law

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 08:26 PM

In his defense (Mark Fayne's, that is), he had the right idea there. It's absolutely critical to stop that cross slot pass, for exactly the reason that we just saw. Unfortunately, he didn't have the ability to stop that one. What get's me upset is that he's just standing there...
dammit.
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