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#201 Neb00rs

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 05:59 PM

I'm not ignoring the things that have gone right - I'm not saying this team is crap, that's others. But this team is underachieving when they are that low with our offensive firepower. Ok so we've been better in December I agree - when did I contradict that? The team has underachieved thus far. Especially factoring in the need for shootout wins.

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#202 maxpower

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:03 PM

That's not what I am talking about. I am talking about the first half of the year when the Devils were shooting 5.5% as a team and had one of the worst first halves of any post-lockout team.



DeBoer mentioned that one of the Devils' goals is to allow the fewest shots in the league - right now they appear to be around 5th in that category, although the number of OT games they've played may be skewing things. The Devils aren't anything like the Boudreau Caps.


Visually they are. Hell their defensive miscues positionally are almost carbon copy of it, along with the repetition of said miscues. I see alot of that Caps team that lost to the Flyers in them.
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#203 Triumph

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:23 PM

Visually they are. Hell their defensive miscues positionally are almost carbon copy of it, along with the repetition of said miscues. I see alot of that Caps team that lost to the Flyers in them.


:rolleyes:

That team was much better at even strength and much worse on the penalty kill. They're 5 shots/60 better at ES. I guess they do both have a Russian who was once the 1st overall pick and who plays LW?
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#204 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:34 PM

I'm not ignoring the things that have gone right - I'm not saying this team is crap, that's others. But this team is underachieving when they are that low with our offensive firepower. Ok so we've been better in December I agree - when did I contradict that? The team has underachieved thus far. Especially factoring in the need for shootout wins.

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I've already pointed out how four forwards are exceeding what could realistically be expected of them in terms of offensive production, and how a fifth forward in Zajac, who's been a contributor in the past, missed significant time. How is this lost on you? Did you really think coming into the season that seven Devils would have scored 10 goals by this point in the season, and not one of them would be named Travis Zajac? And that one of them would be named Petr Sykora?!

Guess you've decided that this team has underachieved and that's that. OK, so where should these underachievers be? How much better should their record be than it currently is?
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#205 NJDevs4978

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:34 PM

That's not what I am talking about. I am talking about the first half of the year when the Devils were shooting 5.5% as a team and had one of the worst first halves of any post-lockout team.


Like I said, they overachieved in the second half about as much as they underachieved in the first half.
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#206 maxpower

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:56 PM

:rolleyes:

That team was much better at even strength and much worse on the penalty kill. They're 5 shots/60 better at ES. I guess they do both have a Russian who was once the 1st overall pick and who plays LW?


That's why we're the B team. :lol:

Watch that series if you can stomach really awful defensive positioning. They really look like us. They were also a late bloomer that season. We're starting to round into form a bit now.
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#207 Triumph

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:33 PM

That's why we're the B team. :lol:

Watch that series if you can stomach really awful defensive positioning. They really look like us. They were also a late bloomer that season. We're starting to round into form a bit now.


They were not a late bloomer. They were a team that got rotten shooting luck early and great shooting luck late. But this team is definitely better defensively - you're taking Green, Morrisonn, Poti, Jurcina, Erskine, Schultz/Eminger over Tallinder, Volchenkov, Fayne, Greene, Larsson, Salvador? Okay then. As I recall the Capitals paraded to the penalty box; they still could have easily won that series. That's why comparisons like this infuriate me.
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#208 Ollie McKraut

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:34 PM

The team remains in playoff contention, and since anything can happen in the playoffs, they will by default be in competition for the Stanley Cup.

That's all I feel I can ask for from any team I support.
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#209 maxpower

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 10:03 PM

They were not a late bloomer. They were a team that got rotten shooting luck early and great shooting luck late. But this team is definitely better defensively - you're taking Green, Morrisonn, Poti, Jurcina, Erskine, Schultz/Eminger over Tallinder, Volchenkov, Fayne, Greene, Larsson, Salvador? Okay then. As I recall the Capitals paraded to the penalty box; they still could have easily won that series. That's why comparisons like this infuriate me.


They lost because they had no defensive positioning. I don't think I've ever seen one team's defensemen gapped that many times in a single series. They may have had better names, but the defensive positioning was total crap, they were pretty much all attack and chickens with their heads cut off when they didn't have the puck. And it was the same couple of mistakes over and over again. So it can infuriate you all you want.
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#210 Triumph

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 10:33 PM

They lost because they had no defensive positioning. I don't think I've ever seen one team's defensemen gapped that many times in a single series. They may have had better names, but the defensive positioning was total crap, they were pretty much all attack and chickens with their heads cut off when they didn't have the puck. And it was the same couple of mistakes over and over again. So it can infuriate you all you want.


They had worse names, and that's why it's a silly comparison. Of course the septet I mentioned is going to have horrible positioning.
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#211 Neb00rs

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 02:14 AM

I've already pointed out how four forwards are exceeding what could realistically be expected of them in terms of offensive production, and how a fifth forward in Zajac, who's been a contributor in the past, missed significant time. How is this lost on you? Did you really think coming into the season that seven Devils would have scored 10 goals by this point in the season, and not one of them would be named Travis Zajac? And that one of them would be named Petr Sykora?!

Guess you've decided that this team has underachieved and that's that. OK, so where should these underachievers be? How much better should their record be than it currently is?


No, it's you who is finding the good in this team and that's a great attitude. The truth is that our two top forwards are well behind where they should be and have been for a long time now. Our other top players can''t stay healthy from Greene to now even Zajac.
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#212 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 07:33 AM

No, it's you who is finding the good in this team and that's a great attitude. The truth is that our two top forwards are well behind where they should be and have been for a long time now. Our other top players can''t stay healthy from Greene to now even Zajac.


You're sidestepping my question...all of them, actually. I asked you, if they are underachievers, how much better should their record be than what it is?

It's not fair to lump in injuries with underachieving...if anything, injuries helped to open the door for Henrique. And teams everywhere deal with injuries. Part of the game. But as you'll see below, it's not like injuries have been killing the Devils this season.

Here's how many games the members of the "10-goal club" have missed with the Devils...and in Henrique's case, he played three games in Albany:

Elias: 1 (illness, not injury)
Parise: 0
Henrique: 3 (sent to minors)
Kovalchuk: 5 (lower body injury)
Sykora: 0
Zubrus: 0
Clarkson: 0

Zajac is back on the ice, but like Parise, will probably need some time to find his game again. And both Parise AND Kovy have been producing more lately...Kovalchuk has 9 G and 12 A in his last 22 GP (he's a -7, but that's Kovy), and Parise has 6 G and 12 A (+1) in his last 15 GP. How much more are you expecting out of each of them?

My take has nothing to do with seeing the good...it's a realistic, objective view of where the team is and likely should be at this point, weighing everything. Like Tri said, it's a team that's probably overachieved by a few points, if anything. But this team will look different going forward, with Zajac back in the lineup, Josefson around the corner, Greene will be coming back...not saying those guys are saviors, but clearly all three of them figured heavily into the Devils' plans this season...if all goes well, soon the Devils will have the team on ice that they really want.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 30 December 2011 - 07:44 AM.

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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#213 Neb00rs

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 01:39 PM

You're sidestepping my question...all of them, actually. I asked you, if they are underachievers, how much better should their record be than what it is?

It's not fair to lump in injuries with underachieving...if anything, injuries helped to open the door for Henrique. And teams everywhere deal with injuries. Part of the game. But as you'll see below, it's not like injuries have been killing the Devils this season.

Here's how many games the members of the "10-goal club" have missed with the Devils...and in Henrique's case, he played three games in Albany:

Elias: 1 (illness, not injury)
Parise: 0
Henrique: 3 (sent to minors)
Kovalchuk: 5 (lower body injury)
Sykora: 0
Zubrus: 0
Clarkson: 0

Zajac is back on the ice, but like Parise, will probably need some time to find his game again. And both Parise AND Kovy have been producing more lately...Kovalchuk has 9 G and 12 A in his last 22 GP (he's a -7, but that's Kovy), and Parise has 6 G and 12 A (+1) in his last 15 GP. How much more are you expecting out of each of them?

My take has nothing to do with seeing the good...it's a realistic, objective view of where the team is and likely should be at this point, weighing everything. Like Tri said, it's a team that's probably overachieved by a few points, if anything. But this team will look different going forward, with Zajac back in the lineup, Josefson around the corner, Greene will be coming back...not saying those guys are saviors, but clearly all three of them figured heavily into the Devils' plans this season...if all goes well, soon the Devils will have the team on ice that they really want.

Ok, firstly your basis for overachieving is way too simplistic. So if I believe this team should be at a certain record we will be able to tell if they are under or over achieving. Ok maybe if the record is extreme one way or the other but there are many factors. On one hand the Devils have a pretty decent record, on the other, we are 27th in regulation plus overtime wins and 15th in the Eastern Conference. My point is that there are a lot of factors surrounding the record that don't allow you to see anything - and quite frankly, without the shootout, we suck.

On injuries I think it's fair to say that a team is underachieving when it doesn't have its best players out there. It debatable whether it applies to the individual injured yes. Secondly, your sample doesn't make much sense. The reason those guys are in the 10 goal club is because they have stayed healthy. Those injured haven't played enough to score 10 or are defensemen.

I'll say again: no one denies Kovy and Parise and the whole team are playing better lately. This is an overall picture here. They have screwed up less lately - but have still managed to make their usual mistakes in a few games.

ON Tri's statement I agree - it doesn't contradict what I said. There's only so much you can pull from record. This team has more points than they should because the team is underachieving with their performance. Hence 12 ROW and where they are ranked on the PP and G/G.

Oh and I never said this team wouldn't get better with all these players you mentioned coming back or picking up - it's precisely my point - they are better than this.

Edited by ben00rs, 30 December 2011 - 01:41 PM.

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