790 replies to this topic

[DaneykoIsGod]

Really? You've got 5 guys there who were UFAs on teams way outside the playoff picture, and the 6th guy was rumored by Lebrun and McKenzie to be in play.

Are those the only 5 UFAs on teams way outside the playoff picture? Was the 6th guy the only guy rumored by Lebrun and McKenzie?

[NJDevs4978]

Again. I'd be a lot more impressed if he called the destination for any of those guys. If he 'knew' they were dealt, he'd at least know where they were going. Making educated guesses and passing them off as vague fact doesn't impress me one bit.

I could care less about the guy, it just amazes me people here and elsewhere think this guy actually has inside knowledge, it's one of the best con jobs in the history of the internet.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 28 February 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[Triumph]

Are those the only 5 UFAs on teams way outside the playoff picture? Was the 6th guy the only guy rumored by Lebrun and McKenzie?

I mean, basically, by deadline day? Yes, except Travis Moen, who had very little traction wrt rumors about him. Go to capgeek and check it out. Edmonton re-signed Hemsky, Sutton, and is going to re-sign Smyth. Anaheim thinks it's in the playoff race (and hell they actually might be). Derek Roy - I wasn't sure he was going to move, the Sabres really don't have any centers and there's no one available in the off-season.

http://espn.go.com/b...ition-whos-left

Here's Lebrun talking about Gaustad and Kostitsyn. LeBrun also tweeted that Oduya was in play. So there's 3. Lebrun also talked about Spacek in a later blog post. That's 4. Allen had been talked about for weeks. There's 5. And everyone knew Pahlsson was going somewhere.

Notice that Bob did not call the Schultz/Gilbert or Hodgson/Kassian deals - he did not do so even after TSN had the fact that Vancouver was involved with another deal. That's because these are the sort of deal that no one besides the teams involved sees coming.

These Internet rumormongers might have a source or two, but mostly they are using that legitimate source to prop up their reputation while they make all kinds of silly ass guesses. Furthermore, while I don't care if people follow these guys, I don't think they have any legitimacy and they shouldn't be talked about here. Or make an Єklund (2.3% accurate)/IncarceratedBob/HockeyInsiderr containment thread and go nuts in there with 3 dudes making sh!t up.

Edited by Triumph, 28 February 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[SS-SS]

you're not impressed by him guys ? Good for you !!! Now let us be impressed by him and stop talking sh!t on a guy who unlike all the other guys that you follow calls the trade and actually say that they are done.

TSN on Kotsytsin, Oduya and all the other players that were rumored: TRADE BAITS

INCARCERATED BOB on the same players: Kotsytsin traded !!! (Something like 3 hours before TSN broke the news)

Rumored and traded is different. If you're not impressed or don't like the guy fine, but I prefer following a guy that is 4 for 6 than a bunch of other guys who can tell me that this guy or this players is rumored or likely to be moved based on the fact that his team is out of a player picture (I kinda know the drill since its the same thing every trade deadline)

[NJDevs4978]

Again, if he knew they were traded, he'd know where they were going. That's like me saying the Republicans have won Alabama and South Carolina in November and passing myself off as a political guru for 'calling it' first. He called Nash to the Rangers - again without any detail and when it was heavily rumored - then when it didn't happen he claimed he was fibbing.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 28 February 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[Triumph]

you're not impressed by him guys ? Good for you !!! Now let us be impressed by him and stop talking sh!t on a guy who unlike all the other guys that you follow calls the trade and actually say that they are done.

TSN on Kotsytsin, Oduya and all the other players that were rumored: TRADE BAITS

INCARCERATED BOB on the same players: Kotsytsin traded !!! (Something like 3 hours before TSN broke the news)

Rumored and traded is different. If you're not impressed or don't like the guy fine, but I prefer following a guy that is 4 for 6 than a bunch of other guys who can tell me that this guy or this players is rumored or likely to be moved based on the fact that his team is out of a player picture (I kinda know the drill since its the same thing every trade deadline)

You have to be sh!tting me. DD56 said that IB broke the news that Pahlsson was traded 6 hours before TSN. Now what do you think is more likely - IB guessed that Pahlsson was going to be traded and threw his name out there to claim that he 'broke the story', or that somehow, the rest of the hockey world's sources are just that slow when normally they are right on top of everything? And you're going to discount the fact that he called 2 trades that never happened? (And that Rutherford claimed he had no substantial talks with any team about those two being dealt)

I'll enjoy his July 1 'Player X has SIGNED WITH A TEAM!!!'

Like I said, follow him if you want, but recognize that the guy almost certainly does not have a better source than the mainstream media does. He's just guessing.

[DaneykoIsGod]

In that Lebrun article, he makes no mention of Gaustad, says Kostitsyn is 50-50 to be dealt, Ribiero and Ott could be had for the right price, Souray would be an 11th-hour decision, and Khabibulin is the Leafs' most likely goalie target. There's also no talk of Oduya, Pahlsson, Spacek, or Allen. If IBN was just copying Lebrun, he woulda been 1-for-5.

Here's another Lebrun piece, this one from Sunday. In it, he only mentions one of the six guys IBN said was traded: Oduya. That ups the number of shared players between Lebrun and IBN to a whopping two. He also mentions a couple of other players that IBN didn't.

Haven't been able too search too exhaustively, but I can't find anything from McKenzie or even Dreger giving a list of most likely trade chips.

The theory that IBN is just stealing his stuff from Lebrun and McKenzie doesn't seem to have a whole lot of traction to it.


And FWIW, I wouldn't be opposed to two separate threads, one for confirmed deals and the other for rumors. Keep the speculation of potential deals and evaluation of completed deals separate.

[Triumph]

In that Lebrun article, he makes no mention of Gaustad, says Kostitsyn is 50-50 to be dealt, Ribiero and Ott could be had for the right price, Souray would be an 11th-hour decision, and Khabibulin is the Leafs' most likely goalie target. There's also no talk of Oduya, Pahlsson, Spacek, or Allen. If IBN was just copying Lebrun, he woulda been 1-for-5.

That's one Lebrun article, there's another one that mentions Gaustad. Ribeiro, Ott, Khabibulin are not UFAs. Souray is not a UFA off a team that's conclusively out of the playoffs.

The theory that IBN is just stealing his stuff from Lebrun and McKenzie doesn't seem to have a whole lot of traction to it.

That's not exactly what I meant. What I'm saying is that IBN understands how these things work, is up on the latest information from legitimate sources, and was throwing things out there based on the most likely result. You're ignoring the fact that he called 2 trades that never happened and that he is calling that players got traded and not what teams they got traded to. If he had gone 4 for 4 yesterday, okay, MAYBE he's not just guessing. But he went 4 for 6 on TRADES THAT WERE LIKELY TO HAPPEN, and didn't even call them right. If I had been in his shoes, I would've called Spacek getting dealt for sure, I was surprised that that didn't happen.

Frankly, I don't like rumormongers because they give easy ammunition to people who think that Internet writers or journalists are sh!t and that the mainstream media are the only legitimate sources for anything. The mainstream media are linked in to scouts and general managers, that's why they're great for knowing about trade talk, but that's part of why they're generally poor at evaluating what's actually going on in the league - they rely too much on the consensus opinion. These guys clearly invent rumors, try to link big deals to popular teams, and are trying desperately for attention even when they are 100% spouting lies and conjecture. And like I said, I think Єklund (2.3% accurate) and IB might have a real source or two, somewhere. Єklund (2.3% accurate) called Vishnevsky to NJ and he had the Mike Richards trade before anyone - the latter one suggests he has a source in the Flyer organization, because only a loon would've said that after Carter was dealt.

And FWIW, I wouldn't be opposed to two separate threads, one for confirmed deals and the other for rumors. Keep the speculation of potential deals and evaluation of completed deals separate.

I wouldn't be opposed to two threads either - a trade thoughts/actual trades thread and an Єklund (2.3% accurate)/IncarceratedBob/HockeyInsiderr thread for people who like to get sucked in by the E.K.L.U.N.D. system.

Edited by Triumph, 28 February 2012 - 11:35 AM.

[NJDevs4978]

It's really 4-for-7, if you count Nash which was a few days before the deadline. Even by guessing standards, 4-7 ain't that great. I could pick out seven names to be traded and be right on four.

[devlman]

Parise, and all professional athletes, don't give a flying fvck what the fans think about where he signs next year. They are professionals playing for money and a chance to win a championship. Different athletes will value those two factors differently, but those are the two biggest concerns, with money coming first. Fans who fervently believe in the hometown discount are just engaging in wishful thinking, projecting their sentimentalism onto the athletes. And before someone says what about Brodeur, his staying for slightly less money than he could have received elsewhere doesn't count; as he said, whatever extra he may have made he would have lost to the agent finding and negotiating the deal.

Cynicism at its finest. Wrong on Marty btw.

Everything said about the Rangers was true. They are a damn good team this year, with the best goalie in the league, playing hard-nosed tight-checking grind it out hockey. Of course I hate losing to them more than any other team, but finding someone's recognition of the strength of their team disturbing is foolish.

And no, not everything he said about New York was true, such as Prise wanting to play in New York because its New York. What does that even mean? The guy practically lives in New York, as is. Its like saying he'd consider the Rangers because of the 'world's most famous arena'...give me a break
Recognizing a team's strength and boasting about them are two different things.

Again, Parise doesnt seem like a highest-bidder type guy. Based on his interviews, he would want a combination of good pay, stability, good team, etc...like a lot of atheletes. I think he also has enough respect and understanding for this fan base and Lou to know what signing for the Rags would mean to the point where it would factor in.

[DaneykoIsGod]

That's one Lebrun article, there's another one that mentions Gaustad. Ribeiro, Ott, Khabibulin are not UFAs. Souray is not a UFA off a team that's conclusively out of the playoffs.

That's not exactly what I meant. What I'm saying is that IBN understands how these things work, is up on the latest information from legitimate sources, and was throwing things out there based on the most likely result. You're ignoring the fact that he called 2 trades that never happened and that he is calling that players got traded and not what teams they got traded to. If he had gone 4 for 4 yesterday, okay, MAYBE he's not just guessing. But he went 4 for 6 on TRADES THAT WERE LIKELY TO HAPPEN, and didn't even call them right. If I had been in his shoes, I would've called Spacek getting dealt for sure, I was surprised that that didn't happen.

OK, I get what you're saying now. But I still think that if it was that easy, more people woulda called more trades successfully. And I still think that 4-for-6, no matter how likely they were, is pretty good. There were way more than six players who fit the "likely to be traded" criteria out there. If nothing else, he could at least get some credit for being a good guesser, but people who hate him seem to hate him so much that they can't even give that. It really is as if it's personal with him. I haven't been following him long enough to get (or care about) that.

Frankly, I don't like rumormongers because they give easy ammunition to people who think that Internet writers or journalists are sh!t and that the mainstream media are the only legitimate sources for anything. The mainstream media are linked in to scouts and general managers, that's why they're great for knowing about trade talk, but that's part of why they're generally poor at evaluating what's actually going on in the league - they rely too much on the consensus opinion. These guys clearly invent rumors, try to link big deals to popular teams, and are trying desperately for attention even when they are 100% spouting lies and conjecture. And like I said, I think Єklund (2.3% accurate) and IB might have a real source or two, somewhere. Єklund (2.3% accurate) called Vishnevsky to NJ and he had the Mike Richards trade before anyone - the latter one suggests he has a source in the Flyer organization, because only a loon would've said that after Carter was dealt.

Oh, believe me, I get that. I studied journalism, covered pressers for the Eagles and Flyers as an intern, was a sports writer at one paper and sports editor at another. But if people are too stupid to know the difference between bloggers, rumor mongers, and legitimate journalists, then I honestly don't care what they think. IBN is a rumor monger. Going 4-for-6 makes me think he has some decent sources. And don't forget, both of his misses came from the same team, leaving room for the presumption that his blemishes came from the same source. That 4-for-6 on deals could possibly also be read as 4-of-5 sources were reliable.

I wouldn't be opposed to two threads either - a trade thoughts/actual trades thread and an Єklund (2.3% accurate)/IncarceratedBob/HockeyInsiderr thread for people who like to get sucked in by the E.K.L.U.N.D. system.

It's weird. I hate Єklund (2.3% accurate), but was drawn in by IBN yesterday. Maybe more time following him will put him in the same light as Ek to me, but he got off on a good enough of a foot to keep me interested.


And to 4978's earlier point, for all anyone knows, IBN's sources (if he actually has sources) are just a towel boy with the team who saw a coach pull a player aside. You can have sources who provide info, but not all info. The less of a legitimate journalist someone is, the less likely they are to have sources who know everything. Expecting a rumor monger with "Incarcerated" in his Twitter handle to compete with Bob "Mr. Hockey Journalism" McKenzie for quality sources isn't realistic, nor is expecting the same level of information.

For a lot of people, innuendo from a towel boy isn't what you'd care about on deadline day. And that's fair. Two threads next time around could help with that. But for people like me, it adds to the fun of deadline day. To each his own.

[Devil Dan 56]

Just wanted to point out, it wasn't just 4 for 6. Including Nash, 4 for 7. Including Schenn (something to the affect of "Schenn has been told he will be traded today, may already be gone"), that's 4 for 8. I can't find that Tweet anymore. It was early yesterday, just before he mentioned Kostitsyn.

He definitely trumps it up when he is right and ignores when he is wrong. Might he have a real source or 2? It's definitely possible. But a lot of what he says is throwing poo against the wall.

What really gets to me is the handling of the Nash thing. That is the glaring example for me. To claim you were kidding after 'breaking' that kind of story shows me that he bluffed and got nailed. Then, to reverse AGAIN and claim you kidding when you said you were kidding... I mean that's too much.

When it comes to hockey, I've found McKenzie, Dreger, and surprisingly Kypreos seem to have stuff pretty early. And of course, how could we forget Potvin???

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

I didn't follow this IB stuff, but it makes perfect sense to me that IB (or anyone not employed as a hockey writer) would have looser lips than Bob McKenzie. IB has no real reputation to maintain, and is willing to be right only a percentage of the time in order to be first. Bob McKenzie can't say anything unless he's ~100% certain it's happening. I can totally see certain organizations having leaks and IB or Єklund (2.3% accurate) being the first to report them over a legitimate news source.

HOWEVER, their batting average is just too poor for me to give them much credence. As others are saying, they really aren't much better than just seeing who's a UFA on a bad team, and guessing they will be traded.

[daneyko_booster]

And no, not everything he said about New York was true, such as Prise wanting to play in New York because its New York.

Sorry, you're right on that one.

I think he also has enough respect and understanding for this fan base and Lou to know what signing for the Rags would mean to the point where it would factor in.

Again, that's the height of sentimentality to think the fans factor into an athlete's decision. I can just see him sitting at the table with his agent and family saying "Well, the Rangers look like a real contender, have all the money in the world, and have been building the right way through the draft the last 5 years, but you know, the fans in New Jersey really don't like them, so I can't consider it." What a joke!

I want him to sign here just as much as anyone, but it's inconceivable that he gives a rats ass what I think, or what any other fan thinks.

[devlman]

Sorry, you're right on that one.



Again, that's the height of sentimentality to think the fans factor into an athlete's decision. I can just see him sitting at the table with his agent and family saying "Well, the Rangers look like a real contender, have all the money in the world, and have been building the right way through the draft the last 5 years, but you know, the fans in New Jersey really don't like them, so I can't consider it." What a joke!

I want him to sign here just as much as anyone, but it's inconceivable that he gives a rats ass what I think, or what any other fan thinks.

Well I'm not saying it would be on his top 20 list of things he was looking for; and if the Rags offered him the moon on a gold plate then yeah, it wouldnt matter what he thought of us devil fans. I just think that all things being equal that it would be something in the back of his mind. You'd probably still disagree and maybe I am interpreting his interviews too optimistically, but you do see some players develop a loyalty over time.

[sundstrom]

The premise of " all things ring equal" is not ever going to happen w/ Parise. The rangers will always have the money card and that trumps all more often than not

[NJDevs4978]

The premise of " all things ring equal" is not ever going to happen w/ Parise. The rangers will always have the money card and that trumps all more often than not

How do they have the money card in a cap system? They do over us clearly, but other teams can offer as much up front money as they can, barring something goofy in the deal structure that we'd lose five first rounders if we tried to do.

[daneyko_booster]

You'd probably still disagree and maybe I am interpreting his interviews too optimistically, but you do see some players develop a loyalty over time.

I may not agree, but I definitely hope you're right

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I think he would care. Alot of teams will offer him a lot of dough, not just the rags. He doesn't seem like a highest-bidder guy, ESP at the cost of going to your fans' most hated rival. The only way I'd see him going to the rags was if they were far and away the highest bidder and made him one of the richest players in the world. Otherwise, all things even, zp recognizes what signing w the rags would mean. Btw, it's disturbing hearing a devils fan lavish praise on that organization so easily.

RANGERS SUCK! Happy now?

I'm hardly lavishing praise on the Rangers or boasting about them. I'm pointing out that there are legitimate reasons why some players want to go there. Even when they sucked, there will still players who wanted to play for them.

Yes, Zach's close in proximity to New York, but at the same time, short as the distance may be, there are players who love and dream of playing for a team with "New York" in front of the nickname, who consider THAT truly being in New York, as opposed to living near it. "New Jersey" doesn't carry that same prestige. I'll be the first to admit I don't get it...I think New York is vastly overrated in many ways. One of the last places I'd ever want to live in would be New York City, or one of its many overpriced suburbs. But the concept and idea of what New York is has a mystique and sex appeal to people of all professions. And the converse is also true...we've seen New York chew up and spit out many just as easily, especially on the big stage...no shortage of athletes who wilted and "couldn't hack New York".

No one hates the Rangers more than me, but I can be objective and admit I could see reasons why Parise might consider signing with them. Sorry, I'm not going to pretend that I know what's going on in Parise's head, but daneyko_booster said it perfectly...I seriously doubt that if he wanted to go play for the Rangers, and really felt he could win with them more than the Devils, that he'd say "but wait...Devils fans aren't going to like this, so I'd better not."

It would suck to see it happen, but Holik did it and so did Gomez, among others...I'll move on...and boo Parise silly every time he steps on the ice wearing Red, White, and Blue.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 28 February 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[DevsMan84]

RANGERS SUCK! Happy now?

I'm hardly lavishing praise on the Rangers or boasting about them. I'm pointing out that there are legitimate reasons why some players want to go there. Even when they sucked, there will still players who wanted to play for them.

Yes, Zach's close in proximity to New York, but at the same time, short as the distance may be, there are players who love and dream of playing for a team with "New York" in front of the nickname, who consider THAT truly being in New York, as opposed to living near it. "New Jersey" doesn't carry that same prestige. I'll be the first to admit I don't get it...I think New York is vastly overrated in many ways. One of the last places I'd ever want to live in would be New York City, or one of its many overpriced suburbs. But the concept and idea of what New York is has a mystique and sex appeal to people of all professions. And the converse is also true...we've seen New York chew up and spit out many just as easily, especially on the big stage...no shortage of athletes who wilted and "couldn't hack New York".

No one hates the Rangers more than me, but I can be objective and admit I could see reasons why Parise might consider signing with them. Sorry, I'm not going to pretend that I know what's going on in Parise's head, but daneyko_booster said it perfectly...I seriously doubt that if he wanted to go play for the Rangers, and really felt he could win with them more than the Devils, that he'd say "but wait...Devils fans aren't going to like this, so I'd better not."

It would suck to see it happen, but Holik did it and so did Gomez, among others...I'll move on...and boo Parise silly every time he steps on the ice wearing Red, White, and Blue.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Sometimes we have to take the fan blinders off once in a while when it comes to these types of situations and look at it objectively.