89 replies to this topic

[njdevsftw]

Wait a second, you're gonna talk to Luongo's 4 seasons in Florida as a sign of consistency, yet downplay Brodeur's 12 straight 30-plus win seasons as a sign of consistency? OK. That makes sense.

Brodeur was awesome, and consistent. However, those 30 wins just shows you he played on a consistently good team. It's a ridiculous stat to use when trying to measure individual performance.

Edited by njdevsftw, 11 March 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[DaneykoIsGod]

Most wins by a QB:
1) Brett Favre
2) John Elway
3) Dan Marino

Most wins by a pitcher:
1) Cy Young
2) Walter Johnson
t-3) Grover Cleveland Alexander
t-3) Christy Mathewson

Most wins by a goalie:
1) Martin Brodeur
2) Patrick Roy
3) Ed Belfour

Yeah. Wins are a ridiculous measure of how good a player was/is. All those guys up there just played on good teams.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

One thing about NHL goalies...their numbers can be destroyed by playing on bad teams. One of many great examples is Chico Resch...just take a look at his post-Islander career with the Rockies/Devils.

Marty would be the first to tell you that he never puts up 649 wins and counting if he had to play for bad teams for an extended stretch, but NO ONE else would either...there's not a goalie, pitcher or QB alive that's winning big playing for crappy teams. And the Devils wouldn't have kept running him out there if hadn't performed at such a high level with such consistency through the years. My point with this is that Marty is well-worthy of his win total, no matter how many fans may want to debunk that, or think he's somehow lucky to have won so many games.

[Legion15]

650 wins...big milestone

[njdevsftw]

My point with this is that Marty is well-worthy of his win total, no matter how many fans may want to debunk that, or think he's somehow lucky to have won so many games.

Don't get me wrong. I think Marty is one of the all time greatest goalies.. I'm just insisting that the numbers of WINS he has reflects more on the team he's been a part of then his individual performance, even though he has contributed strongly to many of them himself of course.

Again; Osgood has more wins then Hasek at roughly the same amount of games played.. Hasek is top 5 of all time imo, Osgood is likely not top 50.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Don't get me wrong. I think Marty is one of the all time greatest goalies.. I'm just insisting that the numbers of WINS he has reflects more on the team he's been a part of then his individual performance, even though he has contributed strongly to many of them himself of course.

Again; Osgood has more wins then Hasek at roughly the same amount of games played.. Hasek is top 5 of all time imo, Osgood is likely not top 50.

Hasek's numbers are kind of screwy because he got such a late start to his career. He didn't get to be a full-time starter in the NHL until he was 29. I know since Hasek and Osgood played roughly the same number of games, so it might not make much sense to bring that up, but it's really too bad it took so long for him to become a starting goalie...he could've won 500+ games easily, though one could also argue that his playing only 53 NHL games before 29 might have helped him with his longevity...who knows?

Chris Osgood is probably better than people give him credit for, but not by much...the real telling stat with Osgood is his .905 save%, which is light years behind Hasek's lifetime .922. But to his credit, Osgood DID raise his game in the playoffs (.916). Hasek did slightly (.925), but how much better could he have been expected to be when he was the greatest pure puck-stopper of all time? But Osgood clearly benefitted from playing on stacked Detroit teams that were almost always offensive powerhouses and yearly SC contenders, while Hasek was elevating so-so/decent teams in Buffalo to good ones.

[BlueSkirt]

650 wins...big milestone

unfortunately the last of his regular season Win milestones....I always hoped he would reach 700, but it would now take a semi-miracle of 2 more seasons.

Nevertheless 650 is huge.
As Chico said the new record will be over 100 more than the previous record, which itself was 100 more than it's previous record.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

unfortunately the last of his regular season Win milestones....I always hoped he would reach 700, but it would now take a semi-miracle of 2 more seasons.

Nevertheless 650 is huge.
As Chico said the new record will be over 100 more than the previous record, which itself was 100 more than it's previous record.

He probably finishes this season somewhere between 655-660. So figure 40-45 to get to 700.

Yeah, definitely a longshot, but I wouldn't write it off entirely.

[BlueSkirt]

I just came across these factoids:

• Youngest goaltender to win 300 regular-season games: Martin Brodeur (age 29 yrs., 7 mos.)
• Youngest goaltender to win 400 regular-season games: Martin Brodeur (age 31 yrs., 10 mos.)
• Youngest goaltender to win 500 regular-season games: Martin Brodeur (age 35 yrs., 6 mos.)
• Youngest goaltender to win 600 regular-season games: Martin Brodeur (age 37 yrs., 11 mos.)

[BlueSkirt]

He probably finishes this season somewhere between 655-660. So figure 40-45 to get to 700.

Yeah, definitely a longshot, but I wouldn't write it off entirely.

I didn't

What I wrote off entirely is that he could reach 700 wins in just one more season !

[Chuck the Duck]

There is no doubt that Brodeur wouldn't have won the same amount of games playing on a crappy team (no one would). But there also isn't any doubt that the Devils wouldn't have won the number of games, division championships, Eastern Conference championships and Stanley Cups as they have over the past 20 years if they didn't have Brodeur in net. The guy has been a rock, rarely missed a game, and was/is the model of consistency from that position. We have been privileged to watch him play for all these seasons.

[aylbert]

Stupid lockout potentially costing Brodeur 700 and a few shutouts.
Oh... and more importantly, stupid lockout costing me a season of hockey enjoyment...

[Pepperkorn]

Costing me a final Scott Stevens season -- now I ask you who is REALLY hurting the most here?

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Stupid lockout potentially costing Brodeur 700 and a few shutouts.
Oh... and more importantly, stupid lockout costing me a season of hockey enjoyment...

Sad and pathetic how many great players lost an entire year due to that nonsense.

[squishyx]

[*]Youngest goaltender to win 600 regular-season games: Martin Brodeur (age 37 yrs., 11 mos.)[/list]

And oldest

[mouse]

Most wins by a QB:
1) Brett Favre
2) John Elway
3) Dan Marino

Most wins by a pitcher:
1) Cy Young
2) Walter Johnson
t-3) Grover Cleveland Alexander
t-3) Christy Mathewson

Most wins by a goalie:
1) Martin Brodeur
2) Patrick Roy
3) Ed Belfour

Yeah. Wins are a ridiculous measure of how good a player was/is. All those guys up there just played on good teams.

Yet Montana was better than any of those QBs, but had a career cut short by concussions.

Cy Young was also the all time loss leader. Notice all 3 of your pitchers came from the deadball era. Also, no relievers.

Obviously wins help. Bad players don't win that many games, regardless of team, but wins are a hopelessly flawed stat for evaluating antone, since they are dependant on so many variables. Look at some of the recent MLB Cy Young awards, where a player on a bad team was clearly the best and got the award based on merit despite record.

None of this is to bash Marty. He's been remarkably consistent and the backbone of an elite franchise, but there are any number of better stats to show how good he is.

[Revan]

All those wins records are going to be destroyed by the shootout and goalies playing their whole careers in the new system (that's the way it is though... in the past you could bitch about the schedule getting longer and goalies getting more shots at wins; then it was OT and now it's SO. The league is always changing, so this thing is never consistent and it's bound to change in the future, too).

That's why the record I care about the most is the shutouts. The previous one stood for a lot of years and the addition of shootout doesn't really help goalies much in this regard (how many 1:0 SO games have you seen?), so Marty's record might as well become the new "unbreakable" stat that stands for God knows how long.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

All those wins records are going to be destroyed by the shootout and goalies playing their whole careers in the new system (that's the way it is though... in the past you could bitch about the schedule getting longer and goalies getting more shots at wins; then it was OT and now it's SO. The league is always changing, so this thing is never consistent and it's bound to change in the future, too).

That's why the record I care about the most is the shutouts. The previous one stood for a lot of years and the addition of shootout doesn't really help goalies much in this regard (how many 1:0 SO games have you seen?), so Marty's record might as well become the new "unbreakable" stat that stands for God knows how long.

I disagree about the win record. How many goalies are going to play as many games as Marty (no one has)? How many are going to play for teams that are consistently solid? How many other goalies will go through so much of their careers without getting hurt for as long as Marty did? You will definitely see more 400 and 500 game winners, but so many things are going to have to go right for someone to break Marty's record.

To me, the win record was always a great testament to the Devils' consistency, and Marty's consistency and flat-out durability...you simply don't break that record unless you're on the ice for a hell of a lot of games, and you don't get to play in that many games unless you're pretty damned good in most of them.

[Triumph]

I disagree about the win record. How many goalies are going to play as many games as Marty (no one has)? How many are going to play for teams that are consistently solid? How many other goalies will go through so much of their careers without getting hurt for as long as Marty did? You will definitely see more 400 and 500 game winners, but so many things are going to have to go right for someone to break Marty's record.

To me, the win record was always a great testament to the Devils' consistency, and Marty's consistency and flat-out durability...you simply don't break that record unless you're on the ice for a hell of a lot of games, and you don't get to play in that many games unless you're pretty damned good in most of them.

This. There's no active goaltender who's even close to a favorite to breaking the record. The guy who I always come back to is Marc Andre Fleury. Okay, so Fleury's got 221 wins and he turned 27 in November, and Brodeur had 242 wins through his 27 year old season. He's still got to win 430+ games over his next 13+ years to have a shot at breaking it. That means he has to average 33 wins a year until he's 40. That's really, really difficult. First, he's got to stay with a good team, and Pittsburgh figures to be really good for a while, but maybe Fleury wants more money and wants to go elsewhere. Then he has to stay healthy. Then he has to stay on top of his game.

Edited by Triumph, 12 March 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

And just to throw it out there, here's a pretty insane record (W-L-T, pre-shootout era): 258-57-74 That was Ken Dryden's record with the Canadiens in the 70s...the guy clearly played on some all-time teams, but to finish a career with a .758 winning %...that is pretty amazing.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 12 March 2012 - 11:58 AM.