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DeBoer and Torts Should Be Fined


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#141 mouse

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:09 AM

And who cares if the fights were "staged", so they were...they still served a purpose. The purpose was to physically intimidate the other team, beat them up, and prove you're top dog. This is hockey folks. Physical play and intimidation is still a major part of the game.


Stevens was intimidating because he could hit anyone. Nobody should be intimidated by Boulton or Janssen but the other team's 4th liners, because they won't have any contact with them. Aside from (maybe) an adrenaline rush, 4th liners dropping the gloves for no reason has no effect on anyone other than other 4th liners, and 4th liners rarely decide a hockey game (unless it's ours failing to clear the zone...).
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#142 mouse

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:12 AM

To me, either you like fighting in the game or you don't. Whether it happens at the drop of the puck or in the middle of the game, what's the big difference?


I love fighting when there's a good reason. I don't buy "these teams don't like each other" is a good reason. If somebody wanted to fight Carter over Dubinsky, that's one thing, but three fights? Really?

One of my favorite moments at a hockey game was a couple years ago (2008?) against the Thrashers. One of the Thrashers, forget who, boarded Zach. A couple sh!ts later, Julien sent Rupper out against his line, and Rupper beat the sh!t out of him. He learned a lesson, as did anybody else who thought he could run Zach and get away with it. I was thankful Rupp was on the team, sincerely enjoyed every second of the fight, and felt that it was worth it for Rupp to risk his health to drop the gloves there. I see a big diference between that and staged theatrics at the beginning of a game.
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#143 Triumph

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:30 AM

lame excuse from Brodeur. He's been in the league how many years already? That should not affect his focus or concentration one iota...he's played on teams where it wasn't uncommon to go 7-8 minutes without a single shot on goal fired on him. Never complained about that before

And who cares if the fights were "staged", so they were...they still served a purpose. The purpose was to physically intimidate the other team, beat them up, and prove you're top dog. This is hockey folks. Physical play and intimidation is still a major part of the game.


As Joe said, apparently that comment was a little tongue in cheek - I didn't see Brodeur say it. Still, going without a shot is a lot different than just standing there watch them clean your teammate's blood off the ice.

Intimidate the other team? No real players fought, except Brandon Prust and Ryan Carter. Those two play in special teams situations. Who's getting intimidated by your assigned tough guy beating up their assigned tough guy? This is same sort of idiocy that leads Lou to have 2 enforcers on the team and for DeBoer to dress them. The 4th line has been an absolute wasteland this year, and you can see teams trying to get their best players on the ice against that line - for instance, the first game at MSG, who was Eric Boulton's most played against Ranger? Not Mike Rupp, or Prust, it was Brad Richards. I bet Richards was terrified of playing against Boulton.

Edited by Triumph, 22 March 2012 - 10:35 AM.

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#144 95Crash

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:36 AM

I love fighting when there's a good reason. I don't buy "these teams don't like each other" is a good reason. If somebody wanted to fight Carter over Dubinsky, that's one thing, but three fights? Really?

One of my favorite moments at a hockey game was a couple years ago (2008?) against the Thrashers. One of the Thrashers, forget who, boarded Zach. A couple sh!ts later, Julien sent Rupper out against his line, and Rupper beat the sh!t out of him. He learned a lesson, as did anybody else who thought he could run Zach and get away with it. I was thankful Rupp was on the team, sincerely enjoyed every second of the fight, and felt that it was worth it for Rupp to risk his health to drop the gloves there. I see a big diference between that and staged theatrics at the beginning of a game.

DeBoer simply wanted to show the Rangers -- as well as his own team -- that the Devils didn't intend on being pushed around that night. So he sent out his toughest line to start the game. Tortorella said, OK, if that's the way you're going to play it, I'll match you with my tough guys. The puck dropped, and both teams went at it. The benches stood. The fans went wild. A little blood was spilled. And a tough game commenced. If you don't mind fighting in hockey, then I don't see why this was such a big deal.
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#145 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:38 AM

People really, really don't understand the reason for that fight. It was to send a message. The Devils were saying they weren't going to be pushed around and went for an early momentum grab. It backfired because the Rangers were up to the challenge.

Did anyone notice that there weren't any more fights in the game? Did anyone notice that there were hardly any penalties the rest of the game and that it was a tough playoff style game (until the Devils went into shell mode) and that everyone was throwing good clean checks?

The reason for that is that the 'useless' players set the tone early and got all of that stuff right out in the beginning. THEY EVEN SAID THAT'S WHY THEY DID IT!! If Rupp, Bickell, and Prust didn't feel it had to be done as well, they wouldn't have fought.
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#146 mouse

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:39 AM

DeBoer simply wanted to show the Rangers -- as well as his own team -- that the Devils didn't intend on being pushed around that night. So he sent out his toughest line to start the game. Tortorella said, OK, if that's the way you're going to play it, I'll match you with my tough guys. The puck dropped, and both teams went at it. The benches stood. The fans went wild. A little blood was spilled. And a tough game commenced. If you don't mind fighting in hockey, then I don't see why this was such a big deal.


My views on fighting changed last summer, as I said somewhere else in this thread. I think it still has a place in the game, and always should, but I think it needs to happen less frequently.
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#147 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:40 AM

As Joe said, apparently that comment was a little tongue in cheek - I didn't see Brodeur say it. Still, going without a shot is a lot different than just standing there watch them clean your teammate's blood off the ice.

Intimidate the other team? No real players fought, except Brandon Prust and Ryan Carter. Those two play in special teams situations. Who's getting intimidated by your assigned tough guy beating up their assigned tough guy? This is same sort of idiocy that leads Lou to have 2 enforcers on the team and for DeBoer to dress them. The 4th line has been an absolute wasteland this year, and you can see teams trying to get their best players on the ice against that line - for instance, the first game at MSG, who was Eric Boulton's most played against Ranger? Not Mike Rupp, or Prust, it was Brad Richards. I bet Richards was terrified of playing against Boulton.


Then why didn't they start their first line?
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#148 mouse

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:43 AM

Then why didn't they start their first line?


Same reasons you said before. The question isn't do people think this way, it's should they. I would argue that, even if the adrenaline boost is beneficial, and setting the tone matters in a physical game, the head injuries these guys suffer is enough to make us reconsider the way things are done, especially after 3 fighters died in one summer.
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#149 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:51 AM

Same reasons you said before. The question isn't do people think this way, it's should they. I would argue that, even if the adrenaline boost is beneficial, and setting the tone matters in a physical game, the head injuries these guys suffer is enough to make us reconsider the way things are done, especially after 3 fighters died in one summer.


Wait wait wait... Boogaard died from a drug and alcohol overdose. Rypien committed suicide after battling depression for over a decade. Many feel the depression stemmed from when his girlfriend died en route to one of his games when he was 16 or 17. Belak also suffered long term depression and there have been claims that his death was 'accidental strangulation'. I don't think I have to get into what that could mean, but his family thinks his death was accidental as well.

It's way deeper than they fought so they died.

Edited by Devil Dan 56, 22 March 2012 - 10:53 AM.

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#150 Satans Hockey

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:59 AM

All the comparisons to "staged WWE fighting" is a bad example, the punches thrown at in those 3 fights were meant to land and hurt.

The majority of people, nhl fans included, love fighting, there is a reason why almost every time there's a fight that the entire arena stands up to watch.

Also look at UFC, it's more popular then ever.

Fighting, in any aspect, is fun to watch.

Edited by Satans Hockey, 22 March 2012 - 10:59 AM.

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#151 Chimaira_Devil_#9

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:07 AM

All the comparisons to "staged WWE fighting" is a bad example, the punches thrown at in those 3 fights were meant to land and hurt.

The majority of people, nhl fans included, love fighting, there is a reason why almost every time there's a fight that the entire arena stands up to watch.

Also look at UFC, it's more popular then ever.

Fighting, in any aspect, is fun to watch.


My comparison to the WWE wasn't in terms of the fighting itself, it was the feeling of the scenario.

I am in no way trying to suggest that the fights themselves were fake. The guys taking part are tough, and they want to hurt each other.
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#152 Triumph

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:14 AM

Then why didn't they start their first line?


Because Torts went off his rocker. He was yelling at DeBoer before the game, does this sound like a man making good decisions to you? I don't have to go back through the games to find how often Torts got Gaborik etc. against the line of non-hockey players that the Devils dress every night, but it happened way more often than it should, and way way more often than it should if Torts was really afraid of those two lines going up against one another.
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#153 Satans Hockey

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:30 AM

My comparison to the WWE wasn't in terms of the fighting itself, it was the feeling of the scenario.

I am in no way trying to suggest that the fights themselves were fake. The guys taking part are tough, and they want to hurt each other.


So you're saying that they all got to together with the creative team before the game and planned out the fights and pre-determined who was going to win, I can't wait for the XHL, it's gonna be awesome. :lol:

Hey Cam! Get the tables! Can't wait to see Cam throw Dubinsky through one :ECW:

Edited by Satans Hockey, 22 March 2012 - 11:31 AM.

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#154 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:31 AM

Because Torts went off his rocker. He was yelling at DeBoer before the game, does this sound like a man making good decisions to you? I don't have to go back through the games to find how often Torts got Gaborik etc. against the line of non-hockey players that the Devils dress every night, but it happened way more often than it should, and way way more often than it should if Torts was really afraid of those two lines going up against one another.


Ok, and I think the reason he matched up the way he did was because he knew full well that those fights were going to happen. Whether the clock said :03 or 15:21 or whatever, it was going to happen. So he put his guys out, they did their thing, and the remaining 59 minutes of that game was a hard hitting, fightless, entertaining game with very few penalties.
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#155 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:50 AM

Because Torts went off his rocker. He was yelling at DeBoer before the game, does this sound like a man making good decisions to you?


Whoa there ... you're saying that DeBo did something that knocked Torts off his rocker and caused him to make bad decisions? And this is a BAD thing for the Devils? Or for hockey?

In the end, it didn't work. But what you're describing sounds like good, ballsy coaching.
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#156 mouse

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:42 PM

Wait wait wait... Boogaard died from a drug and alcohol overdose. Rypien committed suicide after battling depression for over a decade. Many feel the depression stemmed from when his girlfriend died en route to one of his games when he was 16 or 17. Belak also suffered long term depression and there have been claims that his death was 'accidental strangulation'. I don't think I have to get into what that could mean, but his family thinks his death was accidental as well.

It's way deeper than they fought so they died.


It is, but the Laraque article that came out afterward made me see the life of a fighter differently. His description of the pressure he felt, as well as his admission that he fought because he loved hockey and it kept him in the game, tough as it was, made me really feel for these guys. There is also a lot of evidence that depression is tied closely to the type of brain damage that comes from taking headshots. Is it fair to say those 3 incidents are a result of fighting? No. But that coupled with the evidence coming from the BU studies affected my opinion, even if much of the information we currently have is flawed/incomplete. I guess I'd rather err on the side of caution considering how bad the effects may very well be.
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#157 NJDevs4978

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:25 PM

Whoa there ... you're saying that DeBo did something that knocked Torts off his rocker and caused him to make bad decisions? And this is a BAD thing for the Devils? Or for hockey?

In the end, it didn't work. But what you're describing sounds like good, ballsy coaching.


That's a real big accomplishment, Larry Brooks writing two words in the Post could cause Torts to go off his rocker, with one word being Larry and the other Brooks.
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