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MVP of Rounds 1 & 2


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#41 CarpathianForest

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:55 PM

4th line deserves the MVP hands down. If I had to select one person it would be Kovy. He played through his injury and was always in it to support the team.
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#42 Quinn01

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:57 PM

Gionta has worked so hard that it amazes me.
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#43 Neb00rs

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:06 PM

Gionta has worked so hard that it amazes me.


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#44 The 29th Pick

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:13 PM

This team has so many people contributing, it's hard to tell right now.

Edited by hargsy, 09 May 2012 - 06:14 PM.

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#45 RowdyFan42

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:47 PM

When we win the cup everyone better be ready for Quick to get the Conn Smythe :)

Indeed. The complete team effort is what robbed Marty/Nieds/whomever in 2003.
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#46 Neb00rs

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:57 AM

Indeed. The complete team effort is what robbed Marty/Nieds/whomever in 2003.

Rant coming:
Alright, be ready to be angered fellow Devils fans: Am I the only one here who think Giguere deserved the Conn Smythe here? Posted ImageI mean, sure I think they SHOULD have given it to Marty just for the principle of it and I'm sure there were some votes that came from hating on the Devils. I was at the winning game in '03 too, so don't get me wrong, I felt how wrong it was and was booing right along.

However, if I think about what the award means, Giguere was the outright winner. It goes to the most valuable player in the Silver Shiny Thingy playoffs. Marty was amazing but so was his team. Now, Giguere is an alright goalie in general but having watched every Ducks game that playoffs, I can honestly say I have never seen a goalie play at that level. The Ducks were not that great and I remember he would just stop everything. Then just when you thought he wouldn't stop something he would do it again. And again and again and again he would do this. It got to the point where he was pretty much beating teams by himself. If he stopped enough pucks his team would eventually score. It was really amazing watching that and that is what it means to be the "MOST" Valuable Player.

Of course I loved being the team that just ruined the whole Disney story (no pun intended). It reminded me of the scene in the Last Samurai (spoilers) when the Samurai are marching towards the soldiers, somehow amazingly killing all of them off - all to an inspirational soundtrack and then just when they're about to reach the last wave the music cuts to the sound of howitzers and the samurai are all mowed down. When the Ducks got to us it was the inspirational music cutting off and the howitzers replacing it. I loved the fact that everyone hated us and loved them. It is what being a Devils fan has really always been about; including watching the Conn Smythe go to the opposing team's goalie in the playoffs. Anyways there's only one trophy that means anything and that's why Marty motioned to the crowd to "not give a sh!t and get excited for the big one."
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#47 Zubie#8

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:03 AM

Rant coming:
Alright, be ready to be angered fellow Devils fans: Am I the only one here who think Giguere deserved the Conn Smythe here? Posted ImageI mean, sure I think they SHOULD have given it to Marty just for the principle of it and I'm sure there were some votes that came from hating on the Devils. I was at the winning game in '03 too, so don't get me wrong, I felt how wrong it was and was booing right along.

However, if I think about what the award means, Giguere was the outright winner. It goes to the most valuable player in the Silver Shiny Thingy playoffs. Marty was amazing but so was his team. Now, Giguere is an alright goalie in general but having watched every Ducks game that playoffs, I can honestly say I have never seen a goalie play at that level. The Ducks were not that great and I remember he would just stop everything. Then just when you thought he wouldn't stop something he would do it again. And again and again and again he would do this. It got to the point where he was pretty much beating teams by himself. If he stopped enough pucks his team would eventually score. It was really amazing watching that and that is what it means to be the "MOST" Valuable Player.

Of course I loved being the team that just ruined the whole Disney story (no pun intended). It reminded me of the scene in the Last Samurai (spoilers) when the Samurai are marching towards the soldiers, somehow amazingly killing all of them off - all to an inspirational soundtrack and then just when they're about to reach the last wave the music cuts to the sound of howitzers and the samurai are all mowed down. When the Ducks got to us it was the inspirational music cutting off and the howitzers replacing it. I loved the fact that everyone hated us and loved them. It is what being a Devils fan has really always been about; including watching the Conn Smythe go to the opposing team's goalie in the playoffs. Anyways there's only one trophy that means anything and that's why Marty motioned to the crowd to "not give a sh!t and get excited for the big one."

Agreed. :ph34r:
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#48 Devils731

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:25 AM

I don't think Gigeure should have won. Marty was also spectacular that playoff year. Set multiple playoff records and stopped pucks at almost as high a level as Giguere, and that's before you add in Marty's ability to play the puck.

Giguere was great, but he didn't get the job done in the finals. If Marty hadn't also been spectacular, I could see why they gave Giguere the award, but they gave the award to the losing team's goalie when the winning teams goalie was equally spectacular.

The award was apparently close:

http://www.theglobea...article2061902/

I remember in 2003, before the New Jersey Devils-Anaheim Ducks’ final, about six of us who’d been designated as voters were all sitting next to each other in the press room before the start of the game and we talked about the Conn Smythe. A consensus emerged: That unless the Ducks’ J.S. Giguere had a particularly rough outing, he would likely win the award because that is how it is worded: “To the most valuable player for his team in the playoffs.” Sometimes, the MVP comes from the losing team and usually, it’s a goalie.


Well Giguere wasn't amazingly impressive in that game and Marty made no mistakes, still wasn't enough, obviously.
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#49 Neb00rs

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:07 AM

I don't think Gigeure should have won. Marty was also spectacular that playoff year. Set multiple playoff records and stopped pucks at almost as high a level as Giguere, and that's before you add in Marty's ability to play the puck.

Giguere was great, but he didn't get the job done in the finals. If Marty hadn't also been spectacular, I could see why they gave Giguere the award, but they gave the award to the losing team's goalie when the winning teams goalie was equally spectacular.

The award was apparently close:

http://www.theglobea...article2061902/



Well Giguere wasn't amazingly impressive in that game and Marty made no mistakes, still wasn't enough, obviously.


I'm not denying pretty much anything you say besides the statement that Marty was equally as impressive - he wasn't and he didn't need to be. I know he set records but you know better than most that doesn't tell the whole story. The point is - as I said - Giggy was the most valuable to his team in the playoffs. You argued that they should've given it to Marty and I agree but Giguere deserved it; what he did in those playoffs was amazing - it was so fun to watch. Marty was the more skilled goaltender and if tested might have been even more amazing but Giguere had angels rubbing his shoulders (damn it, Disney reference again) and was unbeatable for long stretches that got his team deep into the playoffs.
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#50 SterioDesign

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:18 AM

When we win the cup everyone better be ready for Quick to get the Conn Smythe :)


Im okay with that... Were gonna save cap space that way lol
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#51 AEWHistory

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:39 AM

I'm not denying pretty much anything you say besides the statement that Marty was equally as impressive - he wasn't and he didn't need to be. I know he set records but you know better than most that doesn't tell the whole story. The point is - as I said - Giggy was the most valuable to his team in the playoffs. You argued that they should've given it to Marty and I agree but Giguere deserved it; what he did in those playoffs was amazing - it was so fun to watch. Marty was the more skilled goaltender and if tested might have been even more amazing but Giguere had angels rubbing his shoulders (damn it, Disney reference again) and was unbeatable for long stretches that got his team deep into the playoffs.


Okay, I can't believe I am doing this, but here goes: i think you need to go further in assessing this situation. If you are going to argue over who deserved the Conn Smythe between Marty and Giggy then you have to take their mistakes into account as well as their positives. The moment you do that Bordeur is screwed. Do you all forget the "I dropped my stick, oops it redirected the puck, I will try to sit on it, oh no it went in!" moment? To my knowledge Giggy had nothing like that throughout the playoffs and certainly not in the damn cup. Now I love Marty, but that was a MASSIVE mistake. What's more, this happened in game three. Now look back on that series. We had the ducks throttled and that goal gave them a game and got them back in the series. Given that we came close to losing that series and given that it largely pivoted on a mistake committed by Brodeur I just don't see how he gets the Conn Smythe. Sorry, but IMHO that irrevocably tiles the balance of this argument.

Edited by AEWHistory, 10 May 2012 - 05:40 AM.

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#52 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:58 AM

Re: Giguere

He was the MVP of three rounds. I didn't like the award going to a guy who wasn't particularly valuable in the tournament's most important round.

That said, Niedermayer and Marty split the vote on the Devils side. I remember Gulliti once posting that his vote went to Nieds, and as D731 said Marty was outstanding as well. In the end, the definition of "player most valuable to his team" must've come into play. I mean, when multiple players are most valuable (as Nieds, Marty, and to a lesser extent guys like Langs and Friesen that year) on one team, and there's one guy head and shoulders above the rest on the other team ... well ... dems da breaks.
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#53 squishyx

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:20 AM

Didn't Marty have like 7 shutouts that year? 3 against the ducks when it mattered the most? Gigglypuff played great... for three rounds, but not when it counted. He had a mediocre finals while Marty played fantastic throughout. It's still a shame they gave him the award, the idea that Devils split the voting results (while probably true) is also BS imo, Gigure shouldn't have even been a consideration once it was clear his team was going to lose the game.
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#54 justdo3043

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:42 AM

my mvp is the coaching staff...i just cant believe how well the team is playing as a whole and i credit them
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#55 The 29th Pick

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:44 AM

life aint fair:

Scott Stevens never won the Norris trophy, but he won a Con Smythe
Marty never won a Con Smythe, but he's won the Vezina

we all know Marty should have won a Conny and Scott shouldve won a Norris

Edited by hargsy, 10 May 2012 - 08:44 AM.

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#56 AEWHistory

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:58 AM

Okay, I have done a little research since I think we are all going from memory here. First of all, another point, one I had forgotten, is that while Marty posted three shutouts, he also laid a bit of an egg in game six and got pulled for Schwab. then again, to be fair, Giggy also laid an egg in game five.... He just wasn't pulled. As for stats, here goes:

Brodeur faced 160 shots and made 148 saves. This works out to a save pct. Of .925 if my math skills haven't completely deserted me here.

Giguere, otoh, faced 201 shots (notice the massive shot discrepancy here) and made 183 saves. This works out to just about .910. About where a good goalie should be. Furthermore, I still stand by the argument that Brodeur's gaffe in game 3 hurts his position for the Conn Smythe.

Honestly, this doesnt really change my opinion much from before. Yes, Giguere had a lower save percentage, but he was facing 25% more shots and had already stood on his head for three rounds. It is close, but I can understand why Giguere won.

As a side note, I would love to know the statistics of goalies who have played AGAINST the Devils over the years. It really seems that we regularly outshoot teams and this surely leads to the sensation that even damn goaltender turns into Roy facing us. If so, this might show up in the statistics. Anyone know if these sort of stats are readily available?

Edited by AEWHistory, 10 May 2012 - 08:59 AM.

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#57 Triumph

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:10 AM

Okay, I have done a little research since I think we are all going from memory here. First of all, another point, one I had forgotten, is that while Marty posted three shutouts, he also laid a bit of an egg in game six and got pulled for Schwab. then again, to be fair, Giggy also laid an egg in game five.... He just wasn't pulled. As for stats, here goes:

Brodeur faced 160 shots and made 148 saves. This works out to a save pct. Of .925 if my math skills haven't completely deserted me here.

Giguere, otoh, faced 201 shots (notice the massive shot discrepancy here) and made 183 saves. This works out to just about .910. About where a good goalie should be. Furthermore, I still stand by the argument that Brodeur's gaffe in game 3 hurts his position for the Conn Smythe.

Honestly, this doesnt really change my opinion much from before. Yes, Giguere had a lower save percentage, but he was facing 25% more shots and had already stood on his head for three rounds. It is close, but I can understand why Giguere won.

As a side note, I would love to know the statistics of goalies who have played AGAINST the Devils over the years. It really seems that we regularly outshoot teams and this surely leads to the sensation that even damn goaltender turns into Roy facing us. If so, this might show up in the statistics. Anyone know if these sort of stats are readily available?


On hockey-reference, each goalie has 'splits' - how they did in the first half of the year, how they did against every team. go to Splits -> Career to see how every goalie did against New Jersey.

New Jersey not only outshoots teams, they have tended to employ players who shoot a lot but are often among the worst shooting percentage forwards in the league (Holik, Gomez, Langenbrunner, Rolston). So that doesn't help.
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#58 DaneykoIsGod

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:15 AM

Brodeur faced 160 shots and made 148 saves. This works out to a save pct. Of .925 if my math skills haven't completely deserted me here.

Giguere, otoh, faced 201 shots (notice the massive shot discrepancy here) and made 183 saves. This works out to just about .910. About where a good goalie should be. Furthermore, I still stand by the argument that Brodeur's gaffe in game 3 hurts his position for the Conn Smythe.

Honestly, this doesnt really change my opinion much from before. Yes, Giguere had a lower save percentage, but he was facing 25% more shots and had already stood on his head for three rounds. It is close, but I can understand why Giguere won.


This "Marty faces fewer shots, so he isn't as good" argument has always bothered me. Goalies are supposed to prevent goals. The standard metric for measuring success at this is save percentage. But what about a goalie like Brodeur whose greatest asset is preventing shots from happening in the first place? His save percentage will always suffer for it, even though he's still plenty active and successful at preventing goals.

At no time in his career was Brodeur ever the best pure puck-stopper in the game. But he was always among the best at preventing goals.

/rant
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#59 devilsrule33

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:41 AM

I still don't have an issue with Giguere winning it. It be easier if there was a clear winner for the Devils, but there wasn't. Each round someone else led the charge. In round 1, Madden, Langs and Pando were great. In round 2, Elias and Gomez stepped up. Round 3, Friesen and Langs, and round 4, Friesen again. Throughout, Brodeur and Nieds were very good.

I have made this argument before, but Marty's seven shutouts, while a record, were not that impressive individually, but rather as a team unit. Three of the seven shutouts, he stopped 16 or less shots including game 1 and 2 of the Cup finals where the Ducks were held to 16 shots both games. And even the final game 7, though he made 24 shots, it was an extremely easy night of work for him. The Devils were simply ridiculous in front of him.

Giguere on the other hand, he had a bad finals. No question. But I think people are forgetting how insane he was for three rounds and how sh!tty the rest of the team was. Look at that roster past Paul Kariya, who didn't even have a good playoffs. When a 40-year-old Adam Oates is your best player... Even with an a bad finals he had better stats than Brodeur with a 1.62 GAA and .945 save percentage. Here are some highlights of his playoffs:

- Swept away the defending Stanley Cup Champions and an absolutely loaded Red Wings team
- Set an NHL record with 63 saves in a playoff debut.
- Set an NHL record OT shutout streak of 168 minutes and 27 seconds or almost 8 and a half periods. It kept going as he didn't let in a single overtime goal all playoffs.
- Held the Wild to 1 goal in the entire Conference Finals, an NHL record. 1 freaking goal.
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#60 mouse

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:04 AM

This "Marty faces fewer shots, so he isn't as good" argument has always bothered me. Goalies are supposed to prevent goals. The standard metric for measuring success at this is save percentage. But what about a goalie like Brodeur whose greatest asset is preventing shots from happening in the first place? His save percentage will always suffer for it, even though he's still plenty active and successful at preventing goals.

At no time in his career was Brodeur ever the best pure puck-stopper in the game. But he was always among the best at preventing goals.

/rant


This. And it's incredibly tough to keep your focus and reflexes when you're not facing many shots. I think everybody would agree it's easier to play in front of an elite defense that doesn't allow many shots, but how many times have we watched a goalie (not Marty) look like sh!t trying to make the first save after a long stretch of inaction?
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