116 replies to this topic

[robdeselich88]

no. the two dumbest threads in the last 2 weeks are "Loudest Arena's in NHL" and "Why are the devils even in the finials" over on hFBOARDS

[njdevsftw]

I think Parise is a great player, but as several people here pointed out, he's not skilled enough to create offense out of nothing. Usually people who get payed as well as he will from july 1st are players who can dominate a game. I still hope he resigns with a cap hit similar to Kovys. Would be fun to see what this team can do next year if everyone is healthy and Henrique/Josefson take another step forward.

[Neb00rs]

Time to stand up Zach and will this team a victory. History will be made 6/6/12.

Edited by ben00rs, 06 June 2012 - 03:18 AM.

[ZeroGravityFat]

Time to stand up Zach and will this team a victory. History will be made 6/6/12.

you mean 6/6/6*2

[CaptainRafalski]

The problem I see with keep Parise is that there will always be a team or teams willing to overpay for an "overrated" player. I'm not using that word in a negative way but in a realistic market way. Look at the contracts given to some players compared to why they are really worth. Ville leino is an example. Jayson Werth, jimmy rollins, and Carlos Beltran in baseball. There will be a team offering him some outrageous contract that his play and statistics simply do not warrant.

[Neb00rs]

you mean 6/6/6*2

I thought about it. They can't lose on 6/6/multiple of 6 right?

[Triumph]

The problem I see with keep Parise is that there will always be a team or teams willing to overpay for an "overrated" player. I'm not using that word in a negative way but in a realistic market way. Look at the contracts given to some players compared to why they are really worth. Ville leino is an example. Jayson Werth, jimmy rollins, and Carlos Beltran in baseball. There will be a team offering him some outrageous contract that his play and statistics simply do not warrant.

The Carlos Beltran contract, assuming we're talking about the ones the Mets signed, was excellent. And Parise is a player like Beltran in a way in that his best contributions don't always end up on the scoresheet in an obvious way, but they're definitely there if you look.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Parise is a poor public speaker and command of dialog/language counts when you're leader of the DEVS, he doesn't have those skills. Zach already earns $6 Million per year so I can't see him getting more than Kovy... I would like to see Parise stay if he agrees not demand a exorbitant salary, by giving him a long term secure deal, but comprising on salary to acquire a top defenseman. (sorta what Detroit is attempting to do)

It's obvious the back-end effects the performance of the front end... I wanta see where the money is coming from to pay for a top 2 Dman.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

The Carlos Beltran contract, assuming we're talking about the ones the Mets signed, was excellent. And Parise is a player like Beltran in a way in that his best contributions don't always end up on the scoresheet in an obvious way, but they're definitely there if you look.

Yes, Beltran contract was a no-brainer at the time, can't dispute it.

I've argued this point with nmig many times, but my main issue with Beltran was that, when the game was on the line and he was coming up to the plate, if I was the opposing pitcher, I wasn't afraid of him...there are certain guys that scare me sh!tless when they come to the plate...guys like Jeter, Chipper Jones...they obviously don't come through every time in the "big spot" moments, but sometimes it just feels that way. As a fan of the Mets, Beltran never quite filled me up with that kind of confidence...when he took strike 3 against Wainwright, it didn't come as that big a shock...if Jeter had struck out there in the same way, I know I would've been surprised. Beltran's numbers always looked good by the end of the season, but more than one Met fan would wonder by season's end how he got them.

I do feel more confident that Parise will find a way to come through when needed, game on the line, than I did with Beltran...no real reason why, as it's not like he's had a playoff season anywhere close to what Beltran did with the Astros in '04...and it's really a hard comparison to make, probably couldn't make more of an apples-to-oranges comparison than this one, given the respective venues.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Parise is a poor public speaker and command of dialog/language counts when you're leader of the DEVS, he doesn't have those skills. Zach already earns $6 Million per year so I can't see him getting more than Kovy... I would like to see Parise stay if he agrees not demand a exorbitant salary, by giving him a long term secure deal, but comprising on salary to acquire a top defenseman. (sorta what Detroit is attempting to do)

It's obvious the back-end effects the performance of the front end... I wanta see where the money is coming from to pay for a top 2 Dman.

Oh please, so now everyone ever to lead a team or be a Captain had to be a wordsmith who can spew inspirational dialog on command?

I'm sorry, so many fans have this fairy-tale idea of what a Captain should be...it's actually quite comical.

[Triumph]

Yes, Beltran contract was a no-brainer at the time, can't dispute it.

I've argued this point with nmig many times, but my main issue with Beltran was that, when the game was on the line and he was coming up to the plate, if I was the opposing pitcher, I wasn't afraid of him...there are certain guys that scare me sh!tless when they come to the plate...guys like Jeter, Chipper Jones...they obviously don't come through every time in the "big spot" moments, but sometimes it just feels that way. As a fan of the Mets, Beltran never quite filled me up with that kind of confidence...when he took strike 3 against Wainwright, it didn't come as that big a shock...if Jeter had struck out there in the same way, I know I would've been surprised. Beltran's numbers always looked good by the end of the season, but more than one Met fan would wonder by season's end how he got them.

I do feel more confident that Parise will find a way to come through when needed, game on the line, than I did with Beltran...no real reason why, as it's not like he's had a playoff season anywhere close to what Beltran did with the Astros in '04...and it's really a hard comparison to make, probably couldn't make more of an apples-to-oranges comparison than this one, given the respective venues.

But you weren't the opposing pitcher. Beltran's value wasn't in his ability to hit, although that was certainly part of it, he was a phenomenal fielder, and was second to none in his ability to steal bases without getting caught.

Beltran's playoff stats: .366/.485/.817 - that doesn't seem like it's been very easy for people to get him out in big spots. I don't understand why Met fans insist on boiling his career down to one at-bat, much like I trust that Devils fans will knock Parise for not scoring in the Cup Finals if he goes elsewhere.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

But you weren't the opposing pitcher. Beltran's value wasn't in his ability to hit, although that was certainly part of it, he was a phenomenal fielder, and was second to none in his ability to steal bases without getting caught.

Beltran's playoff stats: .366/.485/.817 - that doesn't seem like it's been very easy for people to get him out in big spots. I don't understand why Met fans insist on boiling his career down to one at-bat, much like I trust that Devils fans will knock Parise for not scoring in the Cup Finals if he goes elsewhere.

In bold: well, yeah, duh.

Don't want to turn this into a Beltran debate, but Beltran never really stole bases like he did before he became a Met, though he did continue to steal them at about the same success rate, %-wise.

And you know full well that Beltran's playoff sample size consisted of all of two postseasons, one monster, off-the-charts one, and one good one. I'm not holding his career to one single at-bat either...more just that the result wasn't that much of a surprise.

I know his numbers were a sabermetrician's wet dream, but there was just something missing about him, and there was a reason that when he strolled up to the plate with runners on and his team down late, I wasn't feeling strongly that he was going to get the job done. And I'm not the only Met fan who feels this way.

Anyway, re: Parise, kind of hard to single him out when no one else is scoring. I don't doubt that some fans (I won't be one of them) will indeed knock Parise for not scoring, but then they'd better knock nearly everyone else.

[NJCroMag]

If Zach Parise doesn't score next game....

...then he owes me 50 gallons of butterscotch pudding.

[slight pause]

Hey...I wanna get something good outta this.

[Triumph]

In bold: well, yeah, duh.

Don't want to turn this into a Beltran debate, but Beltran never really stole bases like he did before he became a Met, though he did continue to steal them at about the same success rate, %-wise.

And you know full well that Beltran's playoff sample size consisted of all of two postseasons, one monster, off-the-charts one, and one good one. I'm not holding his career to one single at-bat either...more just that the result wasn't that much of a surprise.

I know his numbers were a sabermetrician's wet dream, but there was just something missing about him, and there was a reason that when he strolled up to the plate with runners on and his team down late, I wasn't feeling strongly that he was going to get the job done. And I'm not the only Met fan who feels this way.

Anyway, re: Parise, kind of hard to single him out when no one else is scoring. I don't doubt that some fans (I won't be one of them) will indeed knock Parise for not scoring, but then they'd better knock nearly everyone else.

I know you're not the only Met fan who feels that way, but it doesn't make sense to me and never has. It's merely perception, with no basis to it. Most players don't get the job done with runners on, that's why it's hard to score runs. His stats in high leverage spots are good. His stats in late-and-close situations aren't great but they're certainly not terrible. His stats with RISP are real good. And even if these things were or were not true, there's no way you could perceive them to be true or not true.

Anyway - these are the sorts of things that will be said about Parise if he stops scoring 30 goals a year, but I imagine he'll still be driving play forward.

[Devil Dan 56]

Oh please, so now everyone ever to lead a team or be a Captain had to be a wordsmith who can spew inspirational dialog on command?

I'm sorry, so many fans have this fairy-tale idea of what a Captain should be...it's actually quite comical.

Stevens was known for not being much of a speaker but always leading by example, as Zach does.

[Neb00rs]

Parise is a poor public speaker and command of dialog/language counts when you're leader of the DEVS, he doesn't have those skills.

Ridiculous.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

Since this became a Carlos Beltran thread:

Disregarding the fact that Mets might not have been able to pay for it with the Madoff issues, it was clearly a good signing since he helped the Mets and they were able to trade the last year of it for a decent prospect. It's like the Gomez contract for the Rangers. Gomez was a decent Ranger for a few years and they were able to trade him for McDonagh. That worked out brilliantly for them. (Of course you can always claim massive opportunity costs with made up scenarios where the teams save the money and sign player X instead a year later, but most of these are usually fantasy)

The whole premise that you are "overpaying" for free agents is kind of flawed anyway. You are acquiring talent from nowhere. You don't have to pay for the talent in terms of years and games of development time like you have to do with rookies. If you want talent you have to pay for it somehow. Comparing a FA contract with a cost controlled RFA contract is kind of ridiculous in terms of arguing that you're overpaying. Obviously I'd rather give Parise Giroux's contract if I were the Devils, but it's just ignoring the nature of the marketplace. It's like complaining that your rent is overpriced after you compare it to another rent controlled apartment.

[CarpathianForest]

Parise is a poor public speaker and command of dialog/language counts when you're leader of the DEVS, he doesn't have those skills.

Is Toastmaster's still in business?

Edited by CarpathianForest, 06 June 2012 - 04:08 PM.

[Troy from NJ]

Parise is a poor public speaker and command of dialog/language counts when you're leader of the DEVS, he doesn't have those skills. Zach already earns $6 Million per year so I can't see him getting more than Kovy... I would like to see Parise stay if he agrees not demand a exorbitant salary, by giving him a long term secure deal, but comprising on salary to acquire a top defenseman. (sorta what Detroit is attempting to do)

It's obvious the back-end effects the performance of the front end... I wanta see where the money is coming from to pay for a top 2 Dman.

Have you heard Dustin Brown speak? He sounds like he has a bowl of cornflakes rattling around his mouth. Not sure what you say matters as much as what you do. Do you remember what Stevens "said" to Kozlov and Lindros?

[HOLLYWOOD]

Oh please, so now everyone ever to lead a team or be a Captain had to be a wordsmith who can spew inspirational dialog on command?

I'm sorry, so many fans have this fairy-tale idea of what a Captain should be...it's actually quite comical.

I'll put my hockey credentials and experience in the sport up against your pukeazz snipes anytime.