2873 replies to this topic

[Devils731]

The other way around you do realize that Toronto got a fine for tampering cause Wilson said "You're hearing right now — and this sounds very contradictory — but there is a real possibility I would think that we would be going after the Sedins. Let's just speculate there" on the radio.

Wilson was the coach of the Leafs at the time, that's different than some guy saying I had a conversation with a person from the team and he said "whatever". You'd need a smoking gun, like an email where the GM said he told someone to specifically leak the information to the media, and you won't get that email unless the league investigates, and you likely can't get an investigation started without hard evidence, so it's a catch 22.

[Crisis]

Wilson was the coach of the Leafs at the time, that's different than some guy saying I had a conversation with a person from the team and he said "whatever". You'd need a smoking gun, like an email where the GM said he told someone to specifically leak the information to the media, and you won't get that email unless the league investigates, and you likely can't get an investigation started without hard evidence, so it's a catch 22.

Just wanted to let you know that that was post number 16,666. Bravo.

[Triumph]

The other way around you do realize that Toronto got a fine for tampering cause Wilson said "You're hearing right now — and this sounds very contradictory — but there is a real possibility I would think that we would be going after the Sedins. Let's just speculate there" on the radio.

Yes, and he barely got fined for that. Please tell me when a Minnesota-employed person has publicly stated interest in Zach Parise.

[Daniel]

Yes, and he barely got fined for that. Please tell me when a Minnesota-employed person has publicly stated interest in Zach Parise.

Again, the NHL bylaws state that one can tamper by making public statements directly or "indirectly".

So the scenario that at least sounds plausible right now is that Nanne and current Wild management have dinner together, and Wild management tells Nanne "we won't get outbid for Parise, but don't tell anyone we said that" wink, wink. That is undoubtedly tampering, which would be even more evident when the Wild give a massive offer. Saying that it doesn't take a genius to figure out that was Minnesota's plan all along does not change the analysis.

[Devils731]

Again, the NHL bylaws state that one can tamper by making public statements directly or "indirectly".

So the scenario that at least sounds plausible right now is that Nanne and current Wild management have dinner together, and Wild management tells Nanne "we won't get outbid for Parise, but don't tell anyone we said that" wink, wink. That is undoubtedly tampering, which would be even more evident when the Wild give a massive offer. Saying that it doesn't take a genius to figure out that was Minnesota's plan all along does not change the analysis.

The problem is showing that your scenario, or one like it, happened.

[Daniel]

The problem is showing that your scenario, or one like it, happened.

It depends on what investigative tools the league has as its disposal, which I can't speak to. My guess though is that the league has some mechanism to compel, at least Wild management and others under league control, to answer questions under oath, and perhaps demand documents from the Wild.

[Triumph]

It depends on what investigative tools the league has as its disposal, which I can't speak to. My guess though is that the league has some mechanism to compel, at least Wild management and others under league control, to answer questions under oath, and perhaps demand documents from the Wild.

Right, but why would it do this in the first place?

What compelled Lou to seek out the league to investigate was the sense that he was not negotiating with the Stevens camp - that they already had a deal in place.

http://www.nytimes.c...ering-case.html

"In a process of negotiations, when they are ongoing and you are speaking, you can usually sense when there is something else involved,'' Lamoriello said. ''I sensed that I was talking to myself. I just felt as though there was something funny in the way things transpired, the way things went. I was the sole person that could be negotiating, but I felt very strongly reading some of the articles that did come out of St. Louis and things I was hearing, that something happened."

The Wild have no need to say that they will blow Zach out of the water. Zach's agents have to know that already.

[SterioDesign]

well obviously they could never really prove anything but i'd just like the NHL to look into at least to scare other teams to try to pull this off in the future, or at least act as if they care

[SterioDesign]

bottom line is that the whole media world outside TG seems to be trying so hard to make zach sign elsewhere. They keep on bringing back the ownership issues and talk about bankruptcy all the time bringing it back but not saying a word when there's good news coming about it though, then they all let the world know that they'll go for Zach for that much money and for that long bla bla bla

if Zach endup re-signing in NJ before July 1st... man... what a victory

[Triumph]

bottom line is that the whole media world outside TG seems to be trying so hard to make zach sign elsewhere. They keep on bringing back the ownership issues and talk about bankruptcy all the time bringing it back but not saying a word when there's good news coming about it though, then they all let the world know that they'll go for Zach for that much money and for that long bla bla bla

if Zach endup re-signing in NJ before July 1st... man... what a victory

Like maxpower has pointed out, it might actually end up costing the Devils MORE money to do this than to sign him after July 1.

[Daniel]

Right, but why would it do this in the first place?

What compelled Lou to seek out the league to investigate was the sense that he was not negotiating with the Stevens camp - that they already had a deal in place.

http://www.nytimes.c...ering-case.html

"In a process of negotiations, when they are ongoing and you are speaking, you can usually sense when there is something else involved,'' Lamoriello said. ''I sensed that I was talking to myself. I just felt as though there was something funny in the way things transpired, the way things went. I was the sole person that could be negotiating, but I felt very strongly reading some of the articles that did come out of St. Louis and things I was hearing, that something happened."

The Wild have no need to say that they will blow Zach out of the water. Zach's agents have to know that already.

Just the way it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Blues would be interested in Stevens.

The obviousness that the Wild are prepared to make a giant offer does not impact whether a particular scenario amounts to tampering. The only issue right now is what actually happened. Perhaps Nanne was simply talking out of his ass, in which case that would be the end of the story. My opinion though is that there's enough there there to raise antennae of the powers that be. You couple that with rumors from Minnesota press that actually state dollar figures, I think the case for some kind of inquiry is even stronger. (Point it out if I'm wrong, but I haven't even heard Єklund (2.3% accurate) or hockeyinsiderr claim to have sources stating contract amounts that would be offered to Suter by another team or any other past high profile UFAs).


If anything, I think Lou's quote actually proves my point when he refers to "reading some of the articles".

ADDENDUM: As to why the Wild would do this, sometimes people just act stupidly, or think they can get away with it. You could ask why St. Louis did what it did knowing that they could get in trouble for it.

Edited by Daniel, 28 June 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[SterioDesign]

Like maxpower has pointed out, it might actually end up costing the Devils MORE money to do this than to sign him after July 1.

thats true. It also *could* have cost them less not waiting a week before free agency and not letting other teams giving him so much leverage knowing he could get crazy money or better cup chances somewhere else.

2-3 weeks ago the Pens we're not even in talks about Zach and now to me they are frontrunners or pretty damn close to NJ's chances.

and i don't want to hear about that "deserved chance to test the market", you don't put a C on guy just to "freely let him test the market cause he deserve it" a year after, ridiculous.

[Devil Dan 56]

thats true. It also *could* have cost them less not waiting a week before free agency and not letting other teams giving him so much leverage knowing he could get crazy money or better cup chances somewhere else.

2-3 weeks ago the Pens we're not even in talks about Zach and now to me they are frontrunners or pretty damn close to NJ's chances.

and i don't want to hear about that "deserved chance to test the market", you don't put a C on guy just to "freely let him test the market cause he deserve it" a year after, ridiculous.

You are oversimplifying this again. The Devils reportedly offered 7 years at 49 million last year (no evidence, just rumors) and Zach's agents told him to turn it down. It's not just 2 people sit at a table, throw out numbers, shake hands and sign a contract. Zach's agents were hired to make the best possible deal for him, and they know that the best possible deal will be found Sunday. If Zach decides to stay after seeing the money Pitt or Minnesota will throw at him, that would be awesome. But Zach hired that agency to get his payday. It makes no sense for him to sign now when he has a chance to at least see what is out there.

If he wouldn't sign last summer when he had a year before UFA status, why wouldn't he just wait 3 days?

[Daniel]

If he wouldn't sign last summer when he had a year before UFA status, why wouldn't he just wait 3 days?

He might not want to see an offer too big to turn down to go to a team he doesn't really want to play for.

In any event, I think it's pretty obvious that the Devils right now are offering more than what they are rumored to have last summer. So his agents gave him good advice even if he re-signs before July 1.

Edited by Daniel, 28 June 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[SterioDesign]

You are oversimplifying this again. The Devils reportedly offered 7 years at 49 million last year (no evidence, just rumors) and Zach's agents told him to turn it down. It's not just 2 people sit at a table, throw out numbers, shake hands and sign a contract. Zach's agents were hired to make the best possible deal for him, and they know that the best possible deal will be found Sunday. If Zach decides to stay after seeing the money Pitt or Minnesota will throw at him, that would be awesome. But Zach hired that agency to get his payday. It makes no sense for him to sign now when he has a chance to at least see what is out there.

If he wouldn't sign last summer when he had a year before UFA status, why wouldn't he just wait 3 days?

yes obviously, all you just said made all the sense in the world but that's from Zach and his agents point of view and thats my point, they want to get the best deal possible, thats their ultimate goal right?

But does it make sense from Lou's perceptive or from the Devils organization? Lou's goal should be to keep Zach with the best possible deal he can and let him walk if its not reasonable, and the way Lou approached the situation to me GUARANTEE him to pay every single penny and even more than what he can really give + risking losing him on the market.

edit: obviously i know that maybe it could have ended up the same way at the end of it. But for the love of God at least TRY.

Edited by SterioDesign, 28 June 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[maxpower]

thats true. It also *could* have cost them less not waiting a week before free agency and not letting other teams giving him so much leverage knowing he could get crazy money or better cup chances somewhere else.

2-3 weeks ago the Pens we're not even in talks about Zach and now to me they are frontrunners or pretty damn close to NJ's chances.

and i don't want to hear about that "deserved chance to test the market", you don't put a C on guy just to "freely let him test the market cause he deserve it" a year after, ridiculous.

You're overvaluing the C again. Lyle Odelein wore a C. You're still also not grasping how much money it takes to pull a UFA off the market. It's not so much the cap hit or the yearly value, it's the total sum of money. Things can and do happen. If someone offered me a 7/49 and someone else offered me a 12/80, I'd probably take the 12/80. In a sense it's "less money", but I'm also pocketing $31 million more in case my leg falls off or I wash out. And hell if I wash out to the point I have to retire or get bought out, most of the extra $31 million will STILL get paid out.

[Martyisth3b3st]

edit: obviously i know that maybe it could have ended up the same way at the end of it. But for the love of God at least TRY.

Yeah, I'm sure the Devils are just sitting on their hands and watching Full House re-runs.

[SterioDesign]

Yeah, I'm sure the Devils are just sitting on their hands and watching Full House re-runs.

now that's oversimplifying what i said. Lou REFUSED to begin talks until 1 week before free agency, thats NOT setting yourself up for the best deal you possibly can, its just not.

Edited by SterioDesign, 28 June 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[CarpathianForest]

Yeah, I'm sure the Devils are just sitting on their hands and watching Full House re-runs.

Yeah, Dude!

[Triumph]

yes obviously, all you just said made all the sense in the world but that's from Zach and his agents point of view and thats my point, they want to get the best deal possible, thats their ultimate goal right?

But does it make sense from Lou's perceptive or from the Devils organization? Lou's goal should be to keep Zach with the best possible deal he can and let him walk if its not reasonable, and the way Lou approached the situation to me GUARANTEE him to pay every single penny and even more than what he can really give + risking losing him on the market.

edit: obviously i know that maybe it could have ended up the same way at the end of it. But for the love of God at least TRY.

This is silly. How can you give Lou the option of 'letting him walk if it's not reasonable' if he never lets him walk?

The point is that to give up the option to negotiate UFA, Zach may demand a higher price than he would ultimately receive, if his goal is to stay in New Jersey. If the Wild offer isn't thought of as credible and the rest of the suitors try to lowball one another, the Devils could end up paying more if they signed him today than if they signed him Monday.