2873 replies to this topic

[Daniel]

now that's oversimplifying what i said. Lou REFUSED to begin talks until 1 week before free agency, thats NOT setting yourself up for the best deal you possibly can, its just not.

It's the policy of a lot GMs, and players for that matter, not to negotiate during the season. Even the Yankees do that.

[Devil Dan 56]

now that's oversimplifying what i said. Lou REFUSED to begin talks until 1 week before free agency, thats NOT setting yourself up for the best deal you possibly can, its just not.

He supposedly offered a long term contract last summer, which Zach's camp turned down. Then the season ran until mid-June, there was the draft, and then Lou opened negotiations with all of his FA's. I don't know why you think he didn't put in an effort. Zach's agents want to get to Sunday. THAT's where the money is. It doesn't matter what Lou offers, they still want to see what they can get Sunday. Could they always turn around and take the Devils deal? Yes. But it makes no sense for him to sign now.

[ghdi]

now that's oversimplifying what i said. Lou REFUSED to begin talks until 1 week before free agency, thats NOT setting yourself up for the best deal you possibly can, its just not.

He's done it w/ virtually every free agent we've ever had and has a decent track record of keeping them here. Look at the record yourself. Yes, we've lost some guys, but more than half of them wanted to leave to begin with, the ones that stay where there's a mutual desire to stay, usually do. We also were playing hockey a lot later than anyone expected.

Put yourself in Zach's shoes. You're 27 soon to be 28. You're hitting the open market for the first time and are the premier offensive free agent on the market. There's going to be 10, if not 30 teams interested in you, and probably 15 with a legitimate ability to sign you. Would you not want to see what is offered out there? As much as loyalty counts, its still a business and his agents have a lot of sway. We also don't know (regardless of what read in newspapers) what our financial/ownership situation really is.

Contract negotiations cut both ways. It's not entirely Lou's fault if he re-signs a guy or if a guy leaves unless a decision was made to let someone go because they'd be too expensive or no longer fit on the team here.

Lou deserves flack at times, but not here. Very few guys that are due to be free agents don't make it to market.

Edited by ghdi, 28 June 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[NJDevs4978]

Supposedly (via sundstrom) Lou DID try to sign him during the season and Zach would have taken it but his agents nixed the offer. To assume he didn't try because negotiations didn't go public is silly. Lou admitted he wouldn't be averse to negotiating with Zach in-season, it takes two to sign a deal though.

[ghdi]

If Parise leaves, the only person I'm going to be blaming is Zach Parise.

[NJDevs4978]

The Wild have no need to say that they will blow Zach out of the water. Zach's agents have to know that already.

I'm sure they've been told that (and I'm sure teams say a lot of stuff to agents that may or may not be true to try and entice their client to hit the market) but hearing it through a go-between with ties to both sides certainly gives it more credibility. Especially with him putting it out in the media, the Wild certainly wouldn't be getting word out publicly if they didn't intend to follow through on the offer.

Or maybe they put out the numbers as a preemptive strike to intimidate other teams, who would have no idea what the Wild are offering before July 1. Whatever the reason, Nanne was a former GM in the league, he knew exactly what he was saying. To suggest it's coincidence the Wild magically invited him up to let him know the numbers and he (knowing what the tampering rules are) skirted the line but didn't outright state numbers is more than enough circumstancial evidence to suggest something was going on. And then the numbers magically came out in the next day or two. Have you even heard one rumored offer to Suter yet?

Edited by NJDevs4978, 28 June 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[SterioDesign]

This is silly. How can you give Lou the option of 'letting him walk if it's not reasonable' if he never lets him walk?

The point is that to give up the option to negotiate UFA, Zach may demand a higher price than he would ultimately receive, if his goal is to stay in New Jersey. If the Wild offer isn't thought of as credible and the rest of the suitors try to lowball one another, the Devils could end up paying more if they signed him today than if they signed him Monday.

Just like he did with Gomer and Gionta, they wanted too much for what Lou was willing to give and they never looked back, which is good.

Your point is valid too and its true that in some cases you gotta "buy" the player's right to test the market BUT it goes both ways and most folks here absolutely REFUSE to pretend that Lou's way is bad.

It sucks that I have to say this but Holmgren... Holmgren handled his stars INCREDIBLY WELL and got a really good contracts out of Richards and Carter which (for their cap hits) is a steal if you ask me. Why? Cause he didnt wait last fvcking minute and didnt play hard ball with them. He re-signed Richards mid-season while everything was going right, he was feeling good about the organization and he really wanted to be a Flyer forever "lol" Same things with Carter he signed him in november and both never had the chance to get that much leverage to get every single penny or get in a bidding war with them.

Of course it's different cause Zach was injured in his RFA year but my point is that Lou would not have done it the Holmgren way either. Did the flyers paid THAT MUCH to buy their players rights to test the market? lol no. not at all.

Lou has his way and thats good. But you just cannot get the best out of everything if you don't adjust, you just can't and he's not. Who knows if we could have kept Nieds and Rafalski if he would have TRIED to resign them mid season or wtv... maybe not obviously, but maybe we could have re-sign them. And thats my point, anyone here saying that there's absolutely 100% NO CHANCE that he could have maybe resigned them if he would have approached them at the right time during the season. First, you're out of your mind, even if it would have been a 10% chance, well you still take it.

from Lou himself "When time is on youre side, you take it"... what a ridiculous thing to say especially coming from a guy who has 6 months to try to re-sign 13 players and waits until he has 1 week to re-sign them all. Of course im not saying he's sitting on his ass not doing anything the rest of the season but in term of signing players Lou is driving me absolutely crazy.

[NJDevs4978]

lol at bringing up Holmgren, yeah he re-signed them then he shipped them off, in Carter's case to Siberia. Then he just shipped off Van Riemsdyk after signing HIM long-term. I'd be stunned if he ever gets anyone else to sign a long-term extension at this point since he's dealt multiple guys off before their NMC's kick in with an extension.

Not for nothing but that's another reason for a GM to wait, you don't want to sign guys long-term that you're looking to deal off months later.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 28 June 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Triumph]

He signed JVR to a 6 year deal and then sold him at his lowest value.

It's funny though. You don't bring up him signing Nicklas Grossmann to a 4 year deal in season. That doesn't fit the narrative. How about extending Joffrey Lupul a year before he had to? That was brilliant! Oh wait, they shipped him out and he's been on two teams since.

There are enormous risks with extending players early. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes it helps.

Edited by Triumph, 28 June 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[devlman]

Cant see the cap increase helping us keep Parise. Teams will come after him harder now.

[SterioDesign]

lol at bringing up Holmgren, yeah he re-signed them then he shipped them off, in Carter's case to Siberia. Then he just shipped off Van Riemsdyk after signing HIM long-term. I'd be stunned if he ever gets anyone else to sign a long-term extension at this point since he's dealt multiple guys off before their NMC's kick in with an extension.

Not for nothing but that's another reason for a GM to wait, you don't want to sign guys long-term that you're looking to deal off months later.

Whats your point here? He got a VERY cap friendly hit for both players at the time, especially for what Richards can bring, doesnt matter what he did with them after. Guess what. Those 2 guys made it to the cup finals twice AND lifted the cup in our faces this year.

certainly helped the Kings this year too not having those 2 guys having the maximum cap hit they could have got thats for sure.

[Devil Dan 56]

Whats your point here? He got a VERY cap friendly hit for both players at the time, especially for what Richards can bring, doesnt matter what he did with them after. Guess what. Those 2 guys made it to the cup finals twice AND lifted the cup in our faces this year.

certainly helped the Kings this year too not having those 2 guys having the maximum cap hit they could have got thats for sure.

Yeah, it sure helped the KINGS. Didn't do much for the flyers though, did it. If Zach wants to be here, he will be. Lou isn't in the practice of begging and convincing. He works with people who want to be here.

[SterioDesign]

He signed JVR to a 6 year deal and then sold him at his lowest value.

It's funny though. You don't bring up him signing Nicklas Grossmann to a 4 year deal in season. That doesn't fit the narrative. How about extending Joffrey Lupul a year before he had to? That was brilliant! Oh wait, they shipped him out and he's been on two teams since.

There are enormous risks with extending players early. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes it helps.

Again..... it. can. go. both. ways. I'd never pick Holmgren over Lou thats for sure, he's made some terrible decisions. BUT by taking chances like that Holmgren got some REALLY GOOD deals here and here, and the flyers always had a good depth because of those deals, he's not putting himself in a corner for negotiations like Lou is thats the thing and thats all what i meant.

[SterioDesign]

Yeah, it sure helped the KINGS. Didn't do much for the flyers though, did it. If Zach wants to be here, he will be. Lou isn't in the practice of begging and convincing. He works with people who want to be here.

You're deflecting the subject fairly well mister. Did he or did he not get a really good cap hit and contract for those 2 players by approaching them that way? Whatever happened after was a different thing and making room for Bryz was a terrible idea if you ask me or any living creatures on earth. But bottom line is he got a really good cap hit on those guys and any GM in the league would want Richards at 5.7per year on his team.

they made it to the finals that year + he traded both pretty easily and got some good returns. We'll never know but im pretty sure it would have been a lot hard to trade them if they would have had a bigger cap hit. Flyers have a really good young team now with lots of depth because of all those moves.... a TERRIBLE goalie but a good group of forwards for sure.

[Triumph]

Again..... it. can. go. both. ways. I'd never pick Holmgren over Lou thats for sure, he's made some terrible decisions. BUT by taking chances like that Holmgren got some REALLY GOOD deals here and here, and the flyers always had a good depth because of those deals, he's not putting himself in a corner for negotiations like Lou is thats the thing and thats all what i meant.

Okay and he got some real bad deals as well. And Lou has gotten some very good deals by waiting, including the Langenbrunner contract. So what exactly is your point?

Edit: Also, I don't care who it is, a 15 year deal is not good.

Edited by Triumph, 28 June 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[SterioDesign]

Okay and he got some real bad deals as well. And Lou has gotten some very good deals by waiting, including the Langenbrunner contract. So what exactly is your point?

Edit: Also, I don't care who it is, a 15 year deal is not good.

i'd be delighted to explain once again but... i may be wrong about all of this... BUT if i was right, would you guys agree with me or your just gonna be Pro-Lou all the way closing your eyes on what im saying and deying it 'til death? cause i may be wasting my time here by some of the responses that im getting for the last few days.

[Triumph]

i'd be delighted to explain once again but... i may be wrong about all of this... BUT if i was right, would you guys agree with me or your just gonna be Pro-Lou all the way closing your eyes on what im saying and deying it 'til death? cause i may be wasting my time here by some of the responses that im getting for the last few days.

I think negotiating in season has its ups and downs, and you seem to think that it's categorically brilliant to do so.

Also Richards deal is for 12 years, I don't know why I thought it was for 15. Same principle applies.

[Martyisth3b3st]

i'd be delighted to explain once again but... i may be wrong about all of this... BUT if i was right, would you guys agree with me or your just gonna be Pro-Lou all the way closing your eyes on what im saying and deying it 'til death? cause i may be wasting my time here by some of the responses that im getting for the last few days.

Dude I used to like you as a poster but you beat that damn horse to death and you've gotten real bloody annoying.

[Daniel]

i'd be delighted to explain once again but... i may be wrong about all of this... BUT if i was right, would you guys agree with me or your just gonna be Pro-Lou all the way closing your eyes on what im saying and deying it 'til death? cause i may be wasting my time here by some of the responses that im getting for the last few days.

I'm honestly not even clear as to what you're saying.

All I can tell you is that if Zach leaves, it'll have nothing to do with Lou opening negotiations too late. As everyone has kept trying to tell you, even your premise is false. Lou did try to work out a long-term extension a year ago. While we don't know exactly what transpired, it's obvious that a deal would only get done after the season, if at all.

Edited by Daniel, 28 June 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[Devil Dan 56]

i'd be delighted to explain once again but... i may be wrong about all of this... BUT if i was right, would you guys agree with me or your just gonna be Pro-Lou all the way closing your eyes on what im saying and deying it 'til death? cause i may be wasting my time here by some of the responses that im getting for the last few days.

And what we are all saying is that 1) Zach has NO REASON to sign mid season when he is due for a huge payday. and 2) Lou tried to sign him to a long term deal A YEAR AGO. He said no. What else did you want done??