42 replies to this topic

[squishyx]

Absolutely disgusting Burnsy didnt get in.

TG had a few tweets about that, I more or less agree with him

‏‏@TGfireandice - And, as much as Pat Burns belongs, I'm not upset he didn't get in this year. They need to take some time now.
@TGfireandice - Pat Burns should have gotten in 2 years ago before he died. Now, it's too fresh and would add to insult to leaving him out 2 years ago.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Total mistake there to leave him off. I think he'll get in eventually but hopefully not for a long while.

Nothing against him, but to me he's a bit of a compiler who played a nice chunk of his career in the Live Puck Era, and his production dropped off noticably in '94, and really dropped off after '97.

Here are his numbers before '94 (and obviously these aren't the only numbers by which to measure him and others):

877 GP, 426 G, 482 A, 908 Pts

With '94 thru '97 added in:

1083 GP, 503 G, 561 A, 1064 Pts

His last 8 seasons really hurt his overall numbers:

556 GP, 137 G, 137 A, 274 Pts, and was a -66 in those years to boot.


Guess one can argue that, if his career had ended in '97, he probably would've gotten in anyway, so what he did after that shouldn't hurt him from a HOF standpoint. I'm not against him getting in, but I agree, shouldn't be for a while.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 26 June 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[ghdi]

TG had a few tweets about that, I more or less agree with him

I agree with Dreger and McKenzie over TG in this respect.

@TSNBobMcKenzie
Personally, I think it's ludicrous that Brendan Shanahan wasn't a first-ballot HHOFer, and that Fred Shero and Pat Burns are still not there

@DarrenDreger
I do my best to respect all nominees and the process, however, no Shanahan and no Pat Burns makes NO sense. Hall of Fame debate will rage on

TG's reasoning is not that far fetched, but its also stupid to overlook him at any time now. The majority of people think that he is deserving/should be in and its already too late, just not the ones on the committee.

Edited by ghdi, 26 June 2012 - 03:47 PM.

[devilsrule33]

Nothing against him, but to me he's a bit of a compiler who played a nice chunk of his career in the Live Puck Era, and his production dropped off noticably in '94, and really dropped off after '97.

Here are his numbers before '94 (and obviously these aren't the only numbers by which to measure him and others):

877 GP, 426 G, 482 A, 908 Pts

With '94 thru '97 added in:

1083 GP, 503 G, 561 A, 1064 Pts

His last 8 seasons really hurt his overall numbers:

556 GP, 137 G, 137 A, 274 Pts, and was a -66 in those years to boot.


Guess one can argue that, if his career had ended in '97, he probably would've gotten in anyway, so what he did after that shouldn't hurt him from a HOF standpoint. I'm not against him getting in, but I agree, shouldn't be for a while.

I wouldn't want Andreychuk in, and I agree with you, I just think he'll eventually get in on a quiet year in the same way Dino got in too. Still should have had him on the list.

Maybe Andreychuk would have retired years earlier if he had won a Cup. He didn't, and it worked out because he finally got one at 40.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I wouldn't want Andreychuk in, and I agree with you, I just think he'll eventually get in on a quiet year in the same way Dino got in too. Still should have had him on the list.

Maybe Andreychuk would have retired years earlier if he had won a Cup. He didn't, and it worked out because he finally got one at 40.

It was great to see him finally win one...but man did he have to slog his way through a lot of rough years to get it. Impossible to root against a class act like him though, even if he probably hung on way too long.

[Marshall]

Sundin? I love the guy but still.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

I don't know, I think a player keeping in shape and playing into his 40s should be included in an assessment of whether a player should go into the HOF. That's a remarkable achievement in its own right.

But yeah there's a reason why DR33 forgot about Andreychuk, becuase he's a pretty forgettable player in the big scheme of things. Hence not really sure he should be included in a hall of "fame".

With regard to Sundin over Shanahan, Shanahan will get in eventually. I'm glad Sundin got his due.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I don't know, I think a player keeping in shape and playing into his 40s should be included in an assessment of whether a player should go into the HOF. That's a remarkable achievement in its own right.

But yeah there's a reason why DR33 forgot about Andreychuk, becuase he's a pretty forgettable player in the big scheme of things. Hence not really sure he should be included in a hall of "fame".

With regard to Sundin over Shanahan, Shanahan will get in eventually. I'm glad Sundin got his due.

Andreychuk's two huge seasons in '92-'93 and '93-'94 (54 and 53 goals, 99 points each), where he was a power play beast (32 PPG and 21 PPG) are pretty memorable. Unfortunately the last eight years of his career are fresher in everyone's minds. Also, as good as those years were, the NHL was quite different back then...20 players notched 100 or more points in '92-'93, and Andreychuk's 54 goals ranked him 9th in the league. Scoring dropped off in NHL a bit in '94, but there will still 8 players to top 100 points.

[Triumph]

Andreychuk's two huge seasons in '92-'93 and '93-'94 (54 and 53 goals, 99 points each), where he was a power play beast (32 PPG and 21 PPG) are pretty memorable. Unfortunately the last eight years of his career are fresher in everyone's minds. Also, as good as those years were, the NHL was quite different back then...20 players notched 100 or more points in '92-'93, and Andreychuk's 54 goals ranked him 9th in the league. Scoring dropped off in NHL a bit in '94, but there will still 8 players to top 100 points.

Right - those aren't that big seasons. Someone like Andreychuk would be a 30-35 goal scorer today. I do think he should get a lot of credit for reinventing himself as a checking-line center after his scoring skills had faded. It's a shame he wasn't better for NJ - who knows where that 97 series ends up if he's healthy.

[MadDog2020]

I'm sorry... Its absolutely fvcking delusional on behalf of the selection committee to put Pavel Bure- who imo isn't a HOF'er at all, never mind the first ballot- in ahead of Shanahan. Delusional.

[ghdi]

I'm sorry... Its absolutely fvcking delusional on behalf of the selection committee to put Pavel Bure- who imo isn't a HOF'er at all, never mind the first ballot- in ahead of Shanahan. Delusional.

Pavel Bure is not a first balloter. This was his sixth year of eligibility. 437 goals and 779 points over 702 games. Thats HOF material to me.

The real controversy is Sundin going in on first ballot ahead of Shanahan.

[MadDog2020]

Pavel Bure is not a first balloter. This was his sixth year of eligibility. 437 goals and 779 points over 702 games. Thats HOF material to me.

The real controversy is Sundin going in on first ballot ahead of Shanahan.

Never mind on the first ballot thing with Bure, forgot he's been eligible a while. I still don't think he should be in at all, but I'm sure some will disagree with me. I have no problem with Sundin going in, but the fact is they should've selected Shanny over Bure, and then there's no Sundin/Shanny controversy. Sundin and Shannahan are Hall of Famers. Pavel Bure is not a Hall of Famer, and that's where my issue lies.

[Triumph]

Never mind on the first ballot thing with Bure, forgot he's been eligible a while. I still don't think he should be in at all, but I'm sure some will disagree with me. I have no problem with Sundin going in, but the fact is they should've selected Shanny over Bure, and then there's no Sundin/Shanny controversy. Sundin and Shannahan are Hall of Famers. Pavel Bure is not a Hall of Famer, and that's where my issue lies.

Bure had an amazing season in Russia before he came over to the NHL. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame. Throw in the fact that Bossy is in the HOF with 50 more games played, Neely with 25 more, and the three had a pretty comparable careers - Bure was an amazing player, it's a shame his career ended so early. He would be a lock if he played 100 more games, almost regardless of how good he was in those games.

[MadDog2020]

Bure had an amazing season in Russia before he came over to the NHL. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame. Throw in the fact that Bossy is in the HOF with 50 more games played, Neely with 25 more, and the three had a pretty comparable careers - Bure was an amazing player, it's a shame his career ended so early. He would be a lock if he played 100 more games, almost regardless of how good he was in those games.

Obviously, those are all things the selection committee took into consideration when choosing Bure- they gave him the benefit of the doubt that had he had a longer career, his numbers would've been more HOF-like. I'm still surprised though. Bure was a very good player, but I just never thought he had the body of work for the HOF.

[Cirkus]

I have always liked Bure for the HOF. His numbers in his relatively short career were awesome. He had some great seasons and some in the dead puck era. Had he played in the 80's instead of the 90's his goal totals could've been ridiculous. But anyways, he did a lot with his small number of games played, some of which while injured. I wish he had played more games to make this more legit, but I still like it.

Not a fan as much of Sundin. I don't feel he was a dominant player at any point, very good and all but just not HOF like. He probably still deserves it though. The no Shanahan thing is weird, 656 goals and 3 cups should get you in automatically I would think but maybe they felt he was more of a side man on some good teams. I don't know if his current stint as VP of Player Safety has anything to do with it.

Oates to me was obvious, I think he's terribly underrated historically.

But yea, Burns really needs to be in there like a couple of years ago now.

[devilsrule33]

I`m a big Bure fan for the HHOF. He was the most electrifying goal scorer I have ever seen in the NHL. And he was pretty much a one man show most of his career. Here is some of his accomplishments:

Five 50+ goal seasons. Four seasons of 58+ goals. 5th all-time in goals per game. 8th all-time in goals per game in the playoffs. I know you can compare Neely and Bure because of the amount of games they ended up playing but Bure almost had 100 more points in less games playing half his career in the dead-puck era.

Bure's back-to-back 58 and 59 goal seasons in the heart of that era was ridiculous. People forget his last healthy season was at 29 with Florida in 2001 when he scored 59. No one else on that team scored 15 goals that year and the leader in assists on that team had 24. Good trivia question is to guess who that player was. No offense to Ronning, Courtnall, Linden who had very solid careers in the NHL, but Pavel never played with any elite talent throughout his career. Maybe he never needed it.

Edited by devilsrule33, 26 June 2012 - 08:58 PM.

['7']

Surprised over Shanny not making this cut.

And I'm still waiting for Mike Richter, certainly the most-accomplished (& perhaps best-ever) US-born goalkeeper (World Cup, Stanley Cup, Olympics)
And Sergei Makarov also has a great case, since its the Hokey Hall of Fame and not just the NHL Hall of Fame.

Next year seems like a lock for Nieds & Blake, and possibly Tkachuk will get in too.

Mike Richter is not a hall of fame goaltender. The fact that he's arguably the best US goalie shouldn't guarantee him the hall of fame.

tkachuk is a hall of famer. Put up some impressive goal scoring numbers in the dead puck era. Something of a poor mans Neely, only he lasted longer...but had plenty of seasons where he played 50-70 games and scored a good amount of goals.

Rob Blake is not a hall of famer. He's a cut below the Macinnis and Stevens of the world. More in the Suter/Doug Wilson class of defenders.

Pat Burns is a hall of fame coach. Wherever he went he rejuvenated the franchise and squeezed the most out of the players he had.

Bure should be in the hall for the same reason Koufax is in the hall. Doesn't have the most goals or assists...no cups or a ton of playoff points. But the couple of seasons where he was on...he was absolutely dominant and deadly. 92-93, 93-94, 97-98, 99-00, 00-01. If he played no other year but those 5 I would still put him in the hall. Bure was on a 40 goal pace his final year, playing on 1 leg at half speed. That's crazy good.

Edited by '7', 26 June 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[Beck27]

I`m a big Bure fan for the HHOF. He was the most electrifying goal scorer I have ever seen in the NHL. And he was pretty much a one man show most of his career. Here is some of his accomplishments:

Five 50+ goal seasons. Four seasons of 58+ goals. Fifth all-time in goals per game. 8th all-time in goals per game in the playoffs. I know you can compare Neely and Bure because of the amount of games they ended up playing but Bure almost had 100 more points in less games playing half his career in the dead-puck era.

Bure's back-to-back 58 and 59 goal seasons in the heart of that era was ridiculous. People forget his last healthy season was at 29 with Florida in 2001 when he scored 59. No one else on that team scored 15 goals that year and the leader in assists on that team had 24. Good trivia question is to guess who that player was. No offense to Ronning, Courtnall, Linden who had very solid careers in the NHL, but Pavel never played with any elite talent throughout his career. Maybe he never needed it.

This is spot on...the fact alone that he put up the numbers he did without any real offensive support is amazing. You don't keep a guy that is in the conversation of "best goal scorer in the game's history" out of the hall of fame.

[losdiablos103]

Absolutely disgusting Burnsy didnt get in.

It was absolutely disgusting he didn't get in a few years ago! I completely agree with TG.

[ghdi]

This is spot on...the fact alone that he put up the numbers he did without any real offensive support is amazing. You don't keep a guy that is in the conversation of "best goal scorer in the game's history" out of the hall of fame.

I wouldnt go this far. In fact, I would say "without any real offensive support" is very much revisionist history.

From his rookie year on (91) he played with guys like Trevor Linden, Courtnall, Momesso, Igor Larionov, Cliff Ronning and Greg Adams
(top ten in scoring as a team). And those are just the guys with 20+ goals. No, not superstars, but absolutely not slouches in the early 90s. His second year, Larionov left, but the rest of those guys still produced and Bure exploded and they were 2nd in scoring as a team. The next was the year (93-94) that the Canucks made the Finals. The next two years he didn't play a whole lot because of injury and they brought in Almo, who was incredible in his own right. When he was healthy, he was a 90 point player though. He had support in Vancouver.

I agree he should be in the hall, but Bure went to as close to a perfect place for him right from the start as you can find. He had LOTS of support then. He just couldn't stay healthy and played for bad teams once he was out of Vancouver.

Edited by ghdi, 27 June 2012 - 02:25 AM.