92 replies to this topic

[CRASHER]

Simple concept and it's what I was saying last season....decide NOW on what the keeper status will be for next season, speak now or forever hold your peace!

(option 1: Peyton was a 2nd round pick, his cost remains a 2nd round pick, as will any player drafted from here till eternity...or a re-vote )
(option 2: Peyton was signed as a Free Agent, his cost is a 15th round pick (or whatever or last round pick is)
(option 3: this sucks, this is a pain in the ass....screw keepers )

It's July 3rd...might as well launch some fireworks eh??

[aylbert]

Again, this is changing rules retroactively.

These rules should apply to 2012 (so you know what you have on your bench). This materially changes how benches would be managed last year.


I'd rather just kill the keepers if we aren't going to be consistent on ruling - thus my vote.

Edited by aylbert, 03 July 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[CRASHER]

Well that was an easy majority

[NJDevs4978]

If this really changes Manning and other guys' status, I'm gonna have to double-check this postseason list at some point and make sure the values get flipped accordingly (since I had dropped guys that were drafted as 15s). I have the draft list from last year still but it's hard to remember who was drafted and dropped offhand. Then again it doesn't really matter for the majority of these guys and it's hard to remember that anyway.

New Jersey Swamps

Romo – 3rd
Sanchez – 15th (FA)
McFadden
Bush – 8th
Wells – 4th
Jones-Drew – 1st
D. Brown – 15th
Wallace – 2nd
Harvin – 7th
Holmes – 5th
Daniels – 6th
Gronkowski – 12th
Bailey – 15th
Texans – 15th
Bears – 10th

Team Name TBD

Rodgers – 1st
Ponder – 15th (FA)
Ch. Johnson – 1st
Charles
Helu – 15th (FA)
Bryant – 3rd
Maclin – 4th
Manningham – 5th
Green – 10th
A. Brown – 15th
Winslow – 10th
Olsen – 12th
Henery – 15th
Praeter – 15th (FA)
Jets – 8th
Seahawks – 15th (FA)

Long Island Iced Z

Fitzpatrick – 10th
Hasselbeck – 15th (FA)
Yates – 15th (FA)
Moore – 15th (FA)
McCoy – 1st
Forte – 3rd
Sproles – 13th
V. Jackson
J. Jones – 6th
J. Nelson – 13th
Boldin – 5th
Gates – 3rd
Kasay – 15th (FA)
Titans – 15th (FA)
Eagles – 8th

Stacked with VALUE

Brady – 2nd
S. Jackson – 2nd
Lynch – 6th
P. Thomas – 7th
F. Jackson – 5th (IR)
Royster - 15th (FA)
Welker – 4th
S. Moss – 15th (FA)
Washington – 15th (FA)
Crabtree
A. Johnson – 1st
D. Thomas – 15th (FA)
A. Hernandez
Pettigrew – 15th (FA)
Novak – 15th (FA)
Bengals – 15th (FA)

MantaRavens

Stafford – 7th
Flacco – 15th
Bradshaw
Green-Ellis – 4th
Gerhart – 15th (FA)
Hunter – 15th (FA)
R. Williams – 15th (FA)
Bell – 15th (FA)
Jennings – 2nd
Cruz – 15th (FA)
Lloyd – 15th (FA)
Graham – 7th
Akers – 15th (FA)
Ravens – 9th
49ers – 15th (FA)

Occupy MANTA

Newton – 14th
Rivers – 2nd
R. Bush
S. Greene
J. Stewart – 7th
Spiller – 8th
M. Morris – 15th (FA)
Marshall – 5th
Fitzgerald – 1st
S. Johnson – 3rd
Nelson – 15th (FA)
Witten – 4th
Nugent – 15th (FA)
Lions – 15th (FA)
Falcons – 15th (FA)

Waiver Wire Whining

Vick
Roethlisberger – 6th
Tebow – 15th (FA)
Gore – 1st
Mathews – 4th
Thomas – 3rd
K. Smith – 15th (FA)
Tomlinson – 15th (FA)
Ringer – 15th (FA)
Ca. Johnson – 2nd
T. Smith – 15th (FA)
L. Robinson – 15th (FA)
Gonzalez – 7th
Crosby – 13th
Packers – 8th

Masked Marauders

Brees – 2nd
Bradford – 15th (FA)
Turner – 1st
F. Jones – 4th
Benson – 5th
Murray – 13th
Woodhead – 15th (FA)
Addai – 6th
Branch – 10th
J. Jones – 15th (FA)
Britt – 7th (IR)
Gresham – 15th (FA)
Chandler – 15th (FA)
Gostkowski – 15th (FA)
Cowboys – 9th

Wack MC’s

Dalton – 15th (FA)
V. Young – 15th (FA)
Peterson – 1st
Blount – 3rd
D. Williams – 4th
Starks – 9th
Bowe – 2nd
Nicks
L. Moore – 10th
Douglas – 15th (FA)
Ballard – 15th (FA)
D. Clark – 5th
Hanson – 15th (FA)
Steelers – 7th
Jaguars – 15th (FA)

Smirking Revenge

A. Smith – 15th (FA)
McGahee – 8th
Mendenhall – 1st
Jacobs – 15th (FA)
K. Williams – 15th (FA)
S. Morris – 15th (FA)
Best (IR) – 3rd
R. White – 2nd
Colston – 5th
Breaston – 15th (FA)
Burress – 15th (FA)
Little – 15th (FA)
V. Davis – 6th
Keller – 15th (FA)
Bryant – 15th (FA)
Bills – 15th (FA)

Sworn Defenders

Ryan – 4th
Freeman – 6th
Palmer – 15th (FA)
P. Manning – 15th (FA)
Foster – 1st
Tate – 9th
Tolbert – 7th
Grant – 15th (FA)
Moreno – 15th (IR)
H. Miller – 15th (FA)
S. Smith – 9th
M. Williams – 4th
R. Wayne – 15th (FA)
Doucet – 15th (FA)
Janikowski – 13th
Giants – 14th

Big Blue

E. Manning – 6th
Cutler – 8th
Rice – 1st
Hillis
McCluster – 15th (FA)
Ingram – 4th
Austin – 2nd
Gaffney – 15th (FA)
Baldwin – 15th (FA)
S. Rice – 7th (IR)
D. Jackson – 3rd
Garcon – 11th
Finley – 5th
Bironas – 15th (FA)
Rackers – 14th
Patriots – 9th

Edited by NJDevs4978, 06 July 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[aylbert]

Well that was an easy majority

No sh!t. I'm shocked. /sarcasm

The rules were set up, I followed them... and when it doesn't benefit others, fvck the rules, change em retroactively. Let's not forget when I dropped Shonn Green for sucking, and we let him be kept for a 15th the following year.

I have the draft list from last year still but it's hard to remember who was drafted and dropped offhand. Then again it doesn't really matter for the majority of these guys and it's hard to remember that anyway.

It won't be that hard... I'll just pull up the draft results later... and pair off all the 15ths.

Edited by aylbert, 06 July 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[CRASHER]

Because I NEVER mentioned that this was an off-season issue and it would be dealt with in the off-season .....right???

And look...it's the off-season and it was DEALT WITH, that's what y'all wanted RIGHT???

Does it suck that you "wasted a spot on Manning"....maybe...no different then if someone took a chance on say TO that he'd have a team this year and they wanted him on the cheap....no different from when Tony Romo was hurt and Dallas refused to IR him....that's the breaks, I was pretty obvious all along in my intent to deal/fix this in the off-season.....and so it was done....and yes, the draft results are archived and it's easy enough to check on them when it's needed

[aylbert]

Because I NEVER mentioned that this was an off-season issue and it would be dealt with in the off-season .....right???

And look...it's the off-season and it was DEALT WITH, that's what y'all wanted RIGHT???

Does it suck that you "wasted a spot on Manning"....maybe...no different then if someone took a chance on say TO that he'd have a team this year and they wanted him on the cheap....no different from when Tony Romo was hurt and Dallas refused to IR him....that's the breaks, I was pretty obvious all along in my intent to deal/fix this in the off-season.....and so it was done....and yes, the draft results are archived and it's easy enough to check on them when it's needed

Again, that isn't addressing the rules in the offseason. That's changing the rules retroactively.
I wanted the rule change then, effective then before there was any issue.

Now, any rules changes made should be made going forward, not retroactively. It's grandfathering... much like Kovy's contract.

[CRASHER]

Again, that isn't addressing the rules in the offseason. That's changing the rules retroactively.
I wanted the rule change then, effective then before there was any issue.

Now, any rules changes made should be made going forward, not retroactively. It's grandfathering... much like Kovy's contract.

How is changing a rule for a keeper that is chosen in AUGUST and making that rule in JULY, retroactive?? Now you're just being absurd.....
and you guys all flat out demanded I make a decision.....so I made one....just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it goes the other way, and yes choosing to table the issue till the off-season is still a decision

It's not like saying in week 5...oh we should add bonuses for 150 yard games....now THAT'S changing a rule retroactively (since it affects a draft plan for that season)
it's over....it's done with....and pissing and moaning ain't gonna change it back.....

and please with the amount of idiot contracts that were handed out this summer, the Kovy analogy is a terrible one......

[MantaRay]

I miss this banter.

[Masked Fan]

...no different then if someone took a chance on say TO that he'd have a team this year and they wanted him on the cheap....

it is different from that, the rules for TO's situation were spelled out and obvious, Manning was in no mans land. (or really Brady land)

Again, that isn't addressing the rules in the offseason. That's changing the rules retroactively.
I wanted the rule change then, effective then before there was any issue.

Now, any rules changes made should be made going forward, not retroactively. It's grandfathering... much like Kovy's contract.

I totally see what aylbert means here and agree with him. How do you not see this Crasher??? Now the decisions that were made with one (commissioner decreed rule) in effect, are being muted by changing the rule. Unless of course, you are saying Manning is a 15 this year but going forward, a guy would be locked into his draft spot, but it does not sound like thats what yer saying.

It's not like saying in week 5...oh we should add bonuses for 150 yard games....now THAT'S changing a rule retroactively (since it affects a draft plan for that season)
it's over....it's done with....and pissing and moaning ain't gonna change it back.....

Using your own logic, a decision made during last season with "the ruling" in place is now being changed retroactively if manning is a 2, no?

Maybe I am just confused since you used Manning as your example in the vote descriptions.

To be clear;

1) What will be Mannings cost as a keeper this year?

2) What will be the value of a D/A that was drafted last year?

3) What will the value for a D/A be after this season?

[VivaLaFlamme]

look. i've quite frankly stayed relatively quiet during this whole whine-fest But i am going to state my opinion now. A poll was put up. 11 of the 12 people in the league have voted. Stop trying to change what the majority of the people have agreed on. (and dont even try to say "oh you all suck up to crasher", because thats a BS excuse. Would you be whining like this if someone else, say me had picked up Peyton? No, I dont think so. heck, when i was considering letting him rot on my bench i was wholeheartedly expecting him to be a 3rd or 4th (whatever he was drafted in) the whole time. Is he worth that pick? if hes completely healthy, absolutely. Now you have a month or so to decide if hes really worth keeping, risk/reward. Deal with it, god. The way i see it you're just trying to whine and get your way so you can safely gamble with Manning this year, wanting no risk at all. YOU drafted him. YOU dropped him. With your quite frankly stupid logic, someone could have waitied til they were #1 on waiver priority, dropped their #1 pick and resigned him getting a 1st round player in the 15th. NO. Now the rule has been all but officially set. Deal with it.

@masked as it stands based on the poll:


1) What will be Mannings cost as a keeper this year? 2nd round

2) What will be the value of a D/A that was drafted last year? Whatever they were drafted in, or a last round pick if they were undrafted.

3) What will the value for a D/A be after this season? Whatever they were drafted in or a last round pick if they werent drafted.

[aylbert]

With your quite frankly stupid logic, someone could have waitied til they were #1 on waiver priority, dropped their #1 pick and resigned him getting a 1st round player in the 15th. NO. Now the rule has been all but officially set. Deal with it.

Actually, you can't... since you can waiver wire your own player dropped.

And for literally, the 1000th time. I agree this is what should happen (if this was last season). But I asked that we declare this then and there to clear up anything. My biggest concern was dropping him and having you or someone else grab him for a 15th. I begged for a ruling for the 2012 season... and was told no. Because for some reason, Crasher thinks he cant make 2012 rules in 2011. But has no issues retroactively changing them when rosters were built/maintained because of the rules in effect.

Edited by aylbert, 08 July 2012 - 08:56 AM.

[Masked Fan]

1) What will be Mannings cost as a keeper this year? 2nd round

2) What will be the value of a D/A that was drafted last year? Whatever they were drafted in, or a last round pick if they were undrafted.

3) What will the value for a D/A be after this season? Whatever they were drafted in or a last round pick if they werent drafted.

Thanks for the clear answers. I hope Crasher agrees with them.

That said, I see what ayl is saying. Crasher would not just make this call last year. Instead, he decreed that PM would cost a 15. Right?
So that is what he should be, (even though I disagree with that decision and feel he REALLY should be a 2) and the vote result should be going forward from here. (As I believe is the only argument ayl has been making of late)

I voted for pick 1, but I thought it would be going forward and Crashers ruling from last year would stand for PM this draft since his ruling is what people had to base their decisions on for their rosters.

... Because for some reason, Crasher thinks he can make 2012 rules in 2011. But has no issues retroactively changing them when rosters were built/maintained because of the rules in effect.

Did you mean Crasher thinks he can't make a 2012 rule in 2011? Cause this is where I see the problem.





BTW, I def called this Manning injury coming!

Edited by Masked Fan, 08 July 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[aylbert]

Thanks for the clear answers. I hope Crasher agrees with them.

That said, I see what ayl is saying. Crasher would not just make this call last year. Instead, he decreed that PM would cost a 15. Right?
So that is what he should be, (even though I disagree with that decision and feel he REALLY should be a 2) and the vote result should be going forward from here. (As I believe is the only argument ayl has been making of late)

Did you mean Crasher thinks he can't make a 2012 rule in 2011? Cause this is where I see the problem.

BTW, I def called this Manning injury coming!

Yep, Yep, Yep, and Yep.

[CRASHER]

1. you asked...not wait....damn near demanded I make a decision on this in October/November....and I did....I said it can wait till the off-season...it's still a decision, like it or NOT...it was the decision I made.... and not only is it not getting changed....a voting majority of six AGREED with me

2. When you can explain making a decision in JULY for a draft that happens in AUGUST is "retroactive"....ummm.... yeah.....

3. Most of all...it's ONE roster spot.....it wasn't a life of death to your team to take the risk (and like I said, it is the NO DIFFERENT as if someone signed TO or Randy Moss at the end of the season to try to "steal" a late round keeper)....look at everyone's roster....they ALL have a cuttable player that's no big deal to drop at the end of the season to take this swing for the fence (hell I'm almost kicking myself for not taking the swing at Moss since the 49ers are raving about him....given it's July...)

4. "Do you see and understand" that I don't HAVE TO.....I was asked to make a ruling and I made it, isn't that the point of demanding me to make a decision?

I understand it's cute, fun and "entertaining" to keep this going....but it's a done deal, and it was a non-issue when I was pushed to tabling the ruling till now anyway, it's even LESS of one now.....

[NJDevs4978]

I voted for pick 1, but I thought it would be going forward and Crashers ruling from last year would stand for PM this draft since his ruling is what people had to base their decisions on for their rosters.

Well now you got another problem CRASHER, hanging and dimpled chads

For the record I voted for 1 as well, but I knew it would be put into place for this year because CRASHER's been consistent about that all along going back to last season:

There is always a plan B of changing the rule AFTER the season, which also adds to the gamble of picking him up now, I have no problems changing the rules AFTER the season

And what if Manning DOES come back? We all sit there and wait till you feel like adding him? When does it become no longer "unfair"?

And ayl did drop Manning, then picked him up weeks later after he was out of the race. It's not like it affected his roster in a competitive situation.

And yes I do agree it should have been voted on at the time because it was going to affect people's add/drops last year, but the decision was made at the time to defer voting until the offseason and that there was a chance it 'could' be applied retroactively.

Usually keeper values for established players only come into play the last week or two when they get hurt and dropped and then someone out of the race tries to game the system by picking them up on the cheap. It's not like that adversely affects peoples' rosters in a competitive situation though. There's only so many of those add/drop value moves you can do anyway without risking your own talent getting poached.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 08 July 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Masked Fan]

For the record I voted for 1 as well, but I knew it would be put into place for this year because CRASHER's been consistent about that all along going back to last season:

Oh? I guess I missed that part buried in all his other eloquent ranting I really thought his decision last year was PM's a 15 and we would vote on the rules this off season to affect future seasons, not this one.

2. When you can explain making a decision in JULY for a draft that happens in AUGUST is "retroactive"....ummm.... yeah.....

The point is that this July vote has retroactively affected last years roster handling. (Be it in a minor, unimportant way) Do you see that?

I understand it's cute, fun and "entertaining" to keep this going....but it's a done deal, and it was a non-issue when I was pushed to tabling the ruling till now anyway, it's even LESS of one now.....

No way you can claim you got pushed into tabling a decision. You were being pushed to actually make a call, 2 or 15. You made none. c'mon! IT TWITCHED!

[CRASHER]

No way you can claim you got pushed into tabling a decision. You were being pushed to actually make a call, 2 or 15. You made none. c'mon! IT TWITCHED!

A decision to defer is STILL a decision....and like was just stated I made that decision back in SEPTEMBER (damn....even I thought it was later then that ), and I stuck with it all along

And no I don't see how "gambling" on one roster spot on a last place team "affected the season" in any way shape or form...nope.....even more so when he had dropped the guy for a "usable replacement" and was still on the bottom of the standings....just validates my case even more.....the big mistake was wasting the pick on him in the first place....maybe if the draft started later he could have avoided such a snafu

I made a ruling and a loud MINORITY didn't like it and chirped about it..... wowwww

I guess we need find something to do on a beautiful summer's day like this.... find a pool....swim.... go to the beach....get some friends and play some hockey guys....enjoy your summer....hell go road trip and TP the Parise house by the lakes....you'll feel better!!

[Masked Fan]

I was at work all day.

Some song may say that making no decision is still making a decision, but it isn't, your "decision" was to decide later. Tell me, really, what would have been the harm in holding this vote that week??

[aylbert]

It really doesnt matter now... it's the ruling that should have been made then. It's all I really want you to say.
You also love to poll in ways that gives your opinion a clear voice, and the counter argument a fragmented voice. This isn't the first poll where myself, Masked, and I assume others are left scratching our head.

Anyways... I'm likely keeping Foster anyway (unless I'm in the top 3 somehow)... even if I could keep Manning for a 15th. I just like being an ass to keep things fair.

My QB mess sank me last year. 2 gambles at QB; both went horribly south. Won't repeat that.