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#41 ThreeCups

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:03 AM

I have an issue with LL's free agency handlings. It is stubborn and stupid. You do not wait for marquee players to hit free agency. Plain and simple. If you want to retain your best players, you put your best foot/offer forward WELL BEFORE free agency and try to get them to stay. If you cannot come to a deal, you TRADE them before the deadline for whatever assets you can get for them. THE END.
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#42 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:15 AM

I have an issue with LL's free agency handlings. It is stubborn and stupid. You do not wait for marquee players to hit free agency. Plain and simple. If you want to retain your best players, you put your best foot/offer forward WELL BEFORE free agency and try to get them to stay. If you cannot come to a deal, you TRADE them before the deadline for whatever assets you can get for them. THE END.


You're right, what does that idiot Lou know about anything? Only more than you could ever hope to forget. Maybe you should give him a call, since apparently you've got it all figured out.

Sure, trade one of their best players when the team is firmly in playoff contention...that would've gone over really well with both the team and the fanbase. You think they get to the SC Finals without Parise? If anything, the run they went on made the Devils as attractive for Zach to come back to as they were ever likely to be. It was a gamble Lou was right to take for a number of reasons, and he obviously thought he had an excellent chance to bring Zach back, but it didn't work out. sh!t like that happens, but you hindsight-know-it-all-second guessers will never grasp that.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 05 July 2012 - 10:16 AM.

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[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#43 ThreeCups

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:29 AM

You're right, what does that idiot Lou know about anything? Only more than you could ever hope to forget. Maybe you should give him a call, since apparently you've got it all figured out.

Sure, trade one of their best players when the team is firmly in playoff contention...that would've gone over really well with both the team and the fanbase. You think they get to the SC Finals without Parise? If anything, the run they went on made the Devils as attractive for Zach to come back to as they were ever likely to be. It was a gamble Lou was right to take for a number of reasons, and he obviously thought he had an excellent chance to bring Zach back, but it didn't work out. sh!t like that happens, but you hindsight-know-it-all-second guessers will never grasp that.



I did not mean to trade Zach in this instance. Even if he came out and said "I'm leaving!" I would have kept for him a Cup run. In general, I think if a player is known to be leaving (depending on the circumstances) it would be wise to move them for whatever you can get back. But to answer your question, I am not going to see it would have been *IMPOSSIBLE* to make it without him. It's not like he was some playoff beast or anything this year.
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#44 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:41 AM

I did not mean to trade Zach in this instance. Even if he came out and said "I'm leaving!" I would have kept for him a Cup run. In general, I think if a player is known to be leaving (depending on the circumstances) it would be wise to move them for whatever you can get back. But to answer your question, I am not going to see it would have been *IMPOSSIBLE* to make it without him. It's not like he was some playoff beast or anything this year.


Your previous post made your statement sound like an absolute, and here you are backing off it already. Your backpedalling makes it pretty clear that you know you can't think that way, in terms of that post. Clearly Lou thought his team had a serious shot to win a Cup (he wouldn't have traded for Zidlicky otherwise), and it turned out he was actually a lot closer to being right than anyone thought.

Okay, take Zach out of the playoff lineup. Who on the Devils' roster or in the Devils' system is going to come close to doing what he can do, in all facets of the game? No way the Devils get as far as they did without him, even if the point totals weren't monstrous.
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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#45 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:42 AM

I have an issue with LL's free agency handlings. It is stubborn and stupid. You do not wait for marquee players to hit free agency. Plain and simple. If you want to retain your best players, you put your best foot/offer forward WELL BEFORE free agency and try to get them to stay. If you cannot come to a deal, you TRADE them before the deadline for whatever assets you can get for them. THE END.


And if you attempt to sign them and the player says he would like to see what kind of offers he can get on the open market? I see your point, but it's not tat cut and dry. A point I think may have gotten missed in the Parise thread was that Zach said if Suter signed with Detroit, he would have come back to Jersey. It really was, as CR1976 said, a perfect storm. You needed his home state team throwing tons of money, a young family that he would like to settle into one place for a long time with, and a close friend who that home team was ALSO going to throw money at. If just one of those things didn't work out, he was staying.
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#46 Triumph

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:46 AM

This may not be the thread, but I still wonder about the draft in Minnesota last year. Parise was there, asked by Lou to come. The Devils were in talks for Brent Burns according to TG who almost never reports rumors. That fell through. Part of me can't help but think there was a possible trade with the Wild there involving Parise. Or maybe not, who knows.
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#47 Neb00rs

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:53 AM

This may not be the thread, but I still wonder about the draft in Minnesota last year. Parise was there, asked by Lou to come. The Devils were in talks for Brent Burns according to TG who almost never reports rumors. That fell through. Part of me can't help but think there was a possible trade with the Wild there involving Parise. Or maybe not, who knows.


With Parise at the draft table? So like, he would've switched tables?
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#48 Daniel

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:58 AM

The only way Zach would be here right now, is if for his first RFA contract he was given a long-term Richards/Carter like deal.

Would you have approved of that at the time? Be honest now.
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#49 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:00 AM

And if you attempt to sign them and the player says he would like to see what kind of offers he can get on the open market? I see your point, but it's not tat cut and dry. A point I think may have gotten missed in the Parise thread was that Zach said if Suter signed with Detroit, he would have come back to Jersey. It really was, as CR1976 said, a perfect storm. You needed his home state team throwing tons of money, a young family that he would like to settle into one place for a long time with, and a close friend who that home team was ALSO going to throw money at. If just one of those things didn't work out, he was staying.


It's funny...on one hand, it's a little maddening that everything had to work out so damned perfectly for the Wild, but on the other, I think I would've seen what Zach signed for had he stayed and thought "OMG WTF?!" I don't think I would've felt like it would've been a huge win for the Devils if Zach was still here, just like I don't think it's a huge loss because he left, especially for that kind of contract.

The only way Zach would be here right now, is if for his first RFA contract he was given a long-term Richards/Carter like deal.

Would you have approved of that at the time? Be honest now.


He had one solid NHL season and two seasons overall under his belt when he signed his RFA deal. I thought it was very fair at the time.
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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#50 Triumph

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:05 AM

TG has 'reported' - well, mentioned it in Fire and Ice comments, and referenced it again on Twitter yesterday, that Parise came to Lou in July 2010 wanting to sign a very long term deal without an agent. I don't know that the Devils could have signed such a deal and Kovalchuk because of tagging room rules, though.
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#51 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:09 AM

TG has 'reported' - well, mentioned it in Fire and Ice comments, and referenced it again on Twitter yesterday, that Parise came to Lou in July 2010 wanting to sign a very long term deal without an agent. I don't know that the Devils could have signed such a deal and Kovalchuk because of tagging room rules, though.


Funny thing about that is, had that happened, based on the last two seasons, I'm guessing a lot of Devils fans probably wouldn't have been happy with the returns. He would have been getting shredded in November.
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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#52 Triumph

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:17 AM

Funny thing about that is, had that happened, based on the last two seasons, I'm guessing a lot of Devils fans probably wouldn't have been happy with the returns. He would have been getting shredded in November.


I mean, if it had been similar to the deal Jeff Carter signed - 11 year, 66 million - I don't think it would've been *that* bad. The key is getting a cap hit where no one thinks that the player is an impediment to adding other players.
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#53 ThreeCups

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:49 AM

Your previous post made your statement sound like an absolute, and here you are backing off it already. Your backpedalling makes it pretty clear that you know you can't think that way, in terms of that post. Clearly Lou thought his team had a serious shot to win a Cup (he wouldn't have traded for Zidlicky otherwise), and it turned out he was actually a lot closer to being right than anyone thought.

Okay, take Zach out of the playoff lineup. Who on the Devils' roster or in the Devils' system is going to come close to doing what he can do, in all facets of the game? No way the Devils get as far as they did without him, even if the point totals weren't monstrous.



I am not backpedalling from it. I thought the team had a shot to make a run, so I would have kept Zach despite possibly losing him for nothing. (like what happened) In a year when I did not think we had a legit shot I would deal an upcoming UFA that has hinted on leaving. (assuming you have tried signing them longterm to no avail) Zach is not a replaceable player by any means. But nobody will convince me that there was no chance we could have made the Finals without him....
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#54 SterioDesign

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:51 AM

Again... this is not all about Zach, but simply about the way Lou is handling things, old school/stubborn/hard ball... agree its working most of the time and we dodged a few bullets like Gomez BUT... its still extremely risky. And of course its mostly speculations since we don't know exactly whats happening in Lou's office.

Another thing is how he's stuck up on his ideas and will probably never even try to see the positive in not following them, like "no negociations during the season". Lou says its a distraction to talk during the season so he will simply never do it, thats his way, black and white... agreed it *could* be a distraction... but 100% of the time? really Lou? You're so sure its the way to go.

Let me ask you guys put yourself in Zach's shoes (very expensive shoes now so enjoy), during the season and post-season what would have been the bigger distraction to you (Since Zach was actually verbally letting it known that he wanted to start contract discussions with Lou, many many times... but that he knew Lou was doing things a certain way and bla bla)

• To at least start preliminary talks about a contract so you get the ball rolling.

or

• Having to deal with constant questions about his contract and non-existant talks with Lou to the media, Zach said it was hell at some point and i can see it. Especially with the bankrupt rumours and around the trade deadline.

I'm using Zach's case only as an example here, don't throw me reasons of why he did things that way and why it was okay in THAT case.... simply answer me in which case you would have feel distracted the most
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#55 CMONPETEYD

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:51 AM

On other point for all of you out there....

2003 was an amazing draft class, we all know this...

http://www.hockeydb....t/nhl2003e.html

Is it me, or does anyone else find it disturbing that the FA class of 2012 was so thin. Out of the class of draft picks from 2003, the only FA's of note were Parise and Suter.

EDIT: Matt Carle is there too, i missed him...

Edited by CMONPETEYD, 05 July 2012 - 11:53 AM.

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#56 Triumph

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:58 AM

On other point for all of you out there....

2003 was an amazing draft class, we all know this...

http://www.hockeydb....t/nhl2003e.html

Is it me, or does anyone else find it disturbing that the FA class of 2012 was so thin. Out of the class of draft picks from 2003, the only FA's of note were Parise and Suter.

EDIT: Matt Carle is there too, i missed him...


Getzlaf and Perry are UFA next year. Most guys signed long-term deals that put them through these years. And before I hear lots of carping from Devils fans, Zach Parise was on an ELC, a 4 year 3.125M per season deal, and a 6M deal. He probably made $20M as a member of the Devils while providing at least twice that in value.
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#57 ThreeCups

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:00 PM

Again... this is not all about Zach, but simply about the way Lou is handling things, old school/stubborn/hard ball... agree its working most of the time and we dodged a few bullets like Gomez BUT... its still extremely risky. And of course its mostly speculations since we don't know exactly whats happening in Lou's office.

Another thing is how he's stuck up on his ideas and will probably never even try to see the positive in not following them, like "no negociations during the season". Lou says its a distraction to talk during the season so he will simply never do it, thats his way, black and white... agreed it *could* be a distraction... but 100% of the time? really Lou? You're so sure its the way to go.

Let me ask you guys put yourself in Zach's shoes (very expensive shoes now so enjoy), during the season and post-season what would have been the bigger distraction to you (Since Zach was actually verbally letting it known that he wanted to start contract discussions with Lou, many many times... but that he knew Lou was doing things a certain way and bla bla)

• To at least start preliminary talks about a contract so you get the ball rolling.

or

• Having to deal with constant questions about his contract and non-existant talks with Lou to the media, Zach said it was hell at some point and i can see it. Especially with the bankrupt rumours and around the trade deadline.

I'm using Zach's case only as an example here, don't throw me reasons of why he did things that way and why it was okay in THAT case.... simply answer me in which case you would have feel distracted the most



THIS. I am glad someone else is annoyed with Lou's procedures that he will not deviate from. It is a BIGGER distraction to let the situation loom. How can anyone ignore the elephant in the room?!? He better change his ways, starting NOW and with Travis. If he pulls this stunt again Travis is out in July...rumor has it Minny will make him a big offer as well. :whistling:

Getzlaf and Perry are UFA next year. Most guys signed long-term deals that put them through these years. And before I hear lots of carping from Devils fans, Zach Parise was on an ELC, a 4 year 3.125M per season deal, and a 6M deal. He probably made $20M as a member of the Devils while providing at least twice that in value.



So Zach was a good value for us...but what does that mean now?!?
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#58 SterioDesign

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:05 PM

Getzlaf and Perry are UFA next year. Most guys signed long-term deals that put them through these years. And before I hear lots of carping from Devils fans, Zach Parise was on an ELC, a 4 year 3.125M per season deal, and a 6M deal. He probably made $20M as a member of the Devils while providing at least twice that in value.


talking about those 2... How many of you guys really think that on June 25 2013 that the Ducks will not have approach Perry and Getzlaf with contracts at all or began negociations... seriously?

Edited by SterioDesign, 05 July 2012 - 12:12 PM.

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#59 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:13 PM

Getzlaf and Perry are UFA next year. Most guys signed long-term deals that put them through these years. And before I hear lots of carping from Devils fans, Zach Parise was on an ELC, a 4 year 3.125M per season deal, and a 6M deal. He probably made $20M as a member of the Devils while providing at least twice that in value.


And this is why I feel like the Devils got a much better value for what Zach gave them than the Wild will get. Ideally you keep plugging in guys who can provide a semblance of what was lost, either solo or by committee, and let some of the proven guys go when some other teams decides to wildly (no pun intended) overspend for them. Clearly the Devils don't have that guy or guys who seem like the obvious guy(s) to do this in Zach's case, but I'd rather see what I could do that's cost-effective, as opposed to shelling out 13 years and $98 million for a guy who might have already seen his very best seasons. As as terrific as Zach has been as a Devil, there aren't that many players who turn in, say, 10+ years total of what Zach's done to date. Including his injury-plagued 2010-11 campaign, if one thinks that Zach has, say, 10-11 years of typical Zach play before he declines, that leaves about 4-5 seasons of him playing at that level...problem is there's 8-9 more after that on his contract, at a massive cap hit. He's getting a nice chunk of that money up front, but still...extremely risky. Still glad the Devils aren't the ones paying him.
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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#60 Triumph

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:14 PM

talking about those 2... How many of you guys really think that on June 25 2013 that the Ducks will not have approach Perry and Getzlaf with contracts at all or began negociations... seriously?


If the Ducks make the Cup Final and their owner's selling his houses on Mediterranean Avenue just to keep the franchise afloat, I'd believe it, sure.

Ultimately, the player has to want to be here, and the GM has to want him here. That's it, end of story.
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