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#21 squishyx

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:11 PM

I'm talking about dealing with Islamic governments who hate the United States and hate individual liberty, and you're playing identity politics.

And most Islamic governments are at worst neutral to the United States. You are cherry picking the dangerous ones in the middle east to make a blanket statement about a religion that you so desperately want to be about terrorism that isn't.

let me guess, you don't care about the innocent Islamic countries either?

If you can't or won't see the threat of political Islam, then you're right, there's no room for discussion.

Yea, you're right, clearly I am unable to recognize the threat of extreme Islam. :lol:

A dangerous faction yes, an extreme faction, a faction that must be watched, and at times dealt with by force.


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#22 Jimmy Leeds

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:13 PM

die with your generation.

.......as goes America and what she once was.......
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#23 squishyx

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:16 PM

.......as goes America and what she once was.......

I'm sure people said the same thing after the 14th and 19th amendment too. Progress is subjective sure, but I'll take our chances thanks.
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#24 Jerrydevil

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:46 PM

.......as goes America and what she once was.......


It's too bad we have to fight Islam AND their apologists who will align with anyone who hates America ... all in the name of "progressivism."
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#25 Devils Dose

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:53 PM

...designed to make a cheap point.

Well at least I didn't overpay. ;)
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#26 Jimmy Leeds

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:05 PM

It's too bad we have to fight Islam AND their apologists who will align with anyone who hates America ... all in the name of "progressivism."

Haven't you realized America is the big bad bully and we should take whatever we're dealt by the lunatic fringe...........both domestic and international....

They left hasn't realized that they are wanted dead too.
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#27 Devils Dose

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:09 PM

The most Westernized Arab countries, Morocco and Tunisia, have elected Islamic governments, although Islamists don't have a lot of power there (but note who the Muslims have chosen to represent them in those countries ... Arab spring, my ass.).

Has this really been a problem? Or what makes you think it will be one? It's hard to imagine that these little countries could cause very much trouble for us. Also, I'm pretty sure that the most Westernized Arab country is Jordan (let me tell you, it is pleasure to visit there, I never felt an ounce of anti-American sentiment). These other two are more democratic. I think we could just try to form ties to them, prevent isolating them, and that should allow us to keep an eye on things and make sure a terrorist-fostering area doesn't take shape.

What will happen when Syria falls from Assad's grip? Yeah, Islamic rule is a good bet ... people in power whose goal is to destroy Israel and wage jihad against the West. I don't know how many "innocent" Muslims there are, but I honestly don't care. Look who is gaining power and what their intentions are. Stop being ignorant on this issue.

I mean, what should be done then? We pick a new, America-friendly dictator for them? Or is this strictly just a military spending conversation?
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#28 DevsMan84

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:19 PM

Has this really been a problem? Or what makes you think it will be one? It's hard to imagine that these little countries could cause very much trouble for us. Also, I'm pretty sure that the most Westernized Arab country is Jordan (let me tell you, it is pleasure to visit there, I never felt an ounce of anti-American sentiment). These other two are more democratic. I think we could just try to form ties to them, prevent isolating them, and that should allow us to keep an eye on things and make sure a terrorist-fostering area doesn't take shape.


I mean, what should be done then? We pick a new, America-friendly dictator for them? Or is this strictly just a military spending conversation?



Afghanistan 15 years ago wasn't much of a problem, but they did harbor Al Queda which grew and trained in their country. It's not what these governments will do, but what they won't do and that is keeping these guys out.
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#29 squishyx

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:24 PM

Afghanistan 15 years ago wasn't much of a problem, but they did harbor Al Queda which grew and trained in their country. It's not what these governments will do, but what they won't do and that is keeping these guys out.

And after we flattened Afghanistan they all moved to Pakistan. What then, invade a country with a nuclear arsenal? How many times do we have to go to war with gorilla armies before the war hawks in this country figure out you can't kill ideas (even ones that are bad for us) with bullets. How many countries do we have to tear down and rebuild, how many innocent civilians have to lose their lives, and most importantly how many US soldiers have to die before we give up on this idea that we can just shoot our way out of global problems?
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#30 squishyx

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:28 PM

Haven't you realized America is the big bad bully and we should take whatever we're dealt by the lunatic fringe...........both domestic and international....

They left hasn't realized that they are wanted dead too.

You are confusing "complacency" with "a different approach". I'm not interested in being the worlds police, if there are problems we can solve diplomatically, by all means. But I am tired of wasting our most valuable resources trying to root out an ideology. It can't be done. Even if you killed every terrorist today, tomorrow a new group would rise, as long as their are have's and have not's in the world people will hate us for having more then them.
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#31 DevsMan84

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:37 PM

And after we flattened Afghanistan they all moved to Pakistan. What then, invade a country with a nuclear arsenal? How many times do we have to go to war with gorilla armies before the war hawks in this country figure out you can't kill ideas (even ones that are bad for us) with bullets. How many countries do we have to tear down and rebuild, how many innocent civilians have to lose their lives, and most importantly how many US soldiers have to die before we give up on this idea that we can just shoot our way out of global problems?



You are assuming that the other guys are not blinded by hatred of the US by jealousy, religion, or other various reasons. Do you think some of these countries listen to anything but bullets? How many times have we tried to sit at the table with N Korea or Iran only to have them double-cross us? Negotiations go both ways and if the only language they speak is war, then unfortunately that is the language we must speak.

In short just two words: Neville Chamberlain.
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#32 Daniel

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:39 PM

And after we flattened Afghanistan they all moved to Pakistan. What then, invade a country with a nuclear arsenal? How many times do we have to go to war with gorilla armies before the war hawks in this country figure out you can't kill ideas (even ones that are bad for us) with bullets. How many countries do we have to tear down and rebuild, how many innocent civilians have to lose their lives, and most importantly how many US soldiers have to die before we give up on this idea that we can just shoot our way out of global problems?


Well, blowing Bin Laden's head off and the death from above drone strikes have certainly helped. While I don't want to categorically say al Qaeda isn't a threat anymore, it seems pretty clear that we're dealing with the C team at this point.

And fighting ideas with ideas, so to speak, is the stuff of a pointless Tom Friedman column. We're dealing with a mindset that is completely alien to virtually any westerner. Think of it this way, the Afghanis, and the Muslim world in general, were more pissed off about some guy in Florida burning a koran and newspaper cartoons than that solider who went on a killing spree in Afghanistan a few months ago. No information campaign can compete with that.

Whether this or that military campaign was correct is open to debate. The idea that killing people and breaking things was necessary to at least some extent is not.
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#33 Daniel

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:56 PM

In short just two words: Neville Chamberlain.


I get annoyed with this sentiment the same way I get annoyed with every baby boomer comparing everything to Vietnam. Nobody likes the fact that we have to deal with nutjobs in North Korea. Fine. So we start dropping bombs? You think the people in Seoul are going to be thrilled having their city reduced to rubble?

Shouting Neville Chamberlain, Vietnam and quagmire do not a foreign policy make.
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#34 squishyx

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:56 PM

Well, blowing Bin Laden's head off and the death from above drone strikes have certainly helped. While I don't want to categorically say al Qaeda isn't a threat anymore, it seems pretty clear that we're dealing with the C team at this point.

Hang on, I am not advocating pulling out special operations from the area and retaliating (or even first striking) those who have planned or are planning to attack us. I'm talking about nation building and being the world's police.

And fighting ideas with ideas, so to speak, is the stuff of a pointless Tom Friedman column. We're dealing with a mindset that is completely alien to virtually any westerner. Think of it this way, the Afghanis, and the Muslim world in general, were more pissed off about some guy in Florida burning a koran and newspaper cartoons than that solider who went on a killing spree in Afghanistan a few months ago. No information campaign can compete with that.

Whether this or that military campaign was correct is open to debate. The idea that killing people and breaking things was necessary to at least some extent is not.

There's a good chance many Muslims are never going to "like us", nor do I care if they do. But I'm not going to throw the billion in the lot with the few extreme. They don't deserve to die just because they aren't so keen on us.
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#35 squishyx

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:01 PM

You are assuming that the other guys are not blinded by hatred of the US by jealousy, religion, or other various reasons. Do you think some of these countries listen to anything but bullets? How many times have we tried to sit at the table with N Korea or Iran only to have them double-cross us? Negotiations go both ways and if the only language they speak is war, then unfortunately that is the language we must speak.

In short just two words: Neville Chamberlain.

I'm assuming none of that, I'm assuming we can't possibly eradicate an ideology, which historically has proven impossible. They hijacked 4 planes with box cutters, it doesn't take a lot of sophistication to make a symbolic blow against our nation.

Iran and N. Korea are countries, terrorist groups are not. There are more effective ways to deal with rogue nations then bombs, but if it came to it conventional war is much different then what we are trying to do against Islamic extremism.
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#36 Jerrydevil

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:04 PM

I mean, what should be done then? We pick a new, America-friendly dictator for them? Or is this strictly just a military spending conversation?


I am more afraid of what happens here than in the Middle East. I believe we have to stop legal immigration to the U.S. from Muslim countries, and I base that on the result of relaxed immigration policies in European cities such as London, Amsterdam and Paris. There are pockets within those cities that have "sharia zones." There are sharia courts in Britain, based on what I have read. I've read that there are some Muslim neighborhoods in France where the cops don't dare go.

We can't have that happen here, and I don't consider myself an "extremist" for saying so. You want to call it Islamophobia, fine. I won't lie. It scares me. There isn't room in a Western country for people who do not embrace Western civilization.
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#37 DevsMan84

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:04 PM

I get annoyed with this sentiment the same way I get annoyed with every baby boomer comparing everything to Vietnam. Nobody likes the fact that we have to deal with nutjobs in North Korea. Fine. So we start dropping bombs? You think the people in Seoul are going to be thrilled having their city reduced to rubble?

Shouting Neville Chamberlain, Vietnam and quagmire do not a foreign policy make.



It doesn't and like you I do not like the Vietnam comparison being thrown around all the time. However when the left's answer to everything is to just talk nice and hope that they change is pie in the sky thinking. Yes it sucks that we police the world, but as the most powerful country on the planet, who else will keep the peace? UN is a joke and the World Court is a laughingstock. Some people just do not get that there has, are and will always be evil in the world and the only thing they understand is the barrel of a gun and not the handing of an olive branch.
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#38 squishyx

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:13 PM

I am more afraid of what happens here than in the Middle East. I believe we have to stop legal immigration to the U.S. from Muslim countries, and I base that on the result of relaxed immigration policies in European cities such as London, Amsterdam and Paris. There are pockets within those cities that have "sharia zones." There are sharia courts in Britain, based on what I have read. I've read that there are some Muslim neighborhoods in France where the cops don't dare go.

We can't have that happen here, and I don't consider myself an "extremist" for saying so. You want to call it Islamophobia, fine. I won't lie. It scares me. There isn't room in a Western country for people who do not embrace Western civilization.

At least you are honest. I advise you never visit Dearborn MI though, you might have to flee in fear.
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#39 Daniel

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:14 PM

It doesn't and like you I do not like the Vietnam comparison being thrown around all the time. However when the left's answer to everything is to just talk nice and hope that they change is pie in the sky thinking. Yes it sucks that we police the world, but as the most powerful country on the planet, who else will keep the peace? UN is a joke and the World Court is a laughingstock. Some people just do not get that there has, are and will always be evil in the world and the only thing they understand is the barrel of a gun and not the handing of an olive branch.


Yes, I agree that talking things out doesn't accomplish anything, I don't think it's fair to characterize the Obama administration's actions as doing that. Carrier groups have been moved to Iran and sanctions are tightening the noose economically. Probably won't stop anything, but it's not the same as playing nice and hoping the baddies change their minds.

North Korea is a whole other ball of wax. There's very little rhyme or reason to what they do. I suppose the food aid idea in the 90's wasn't an awful idea. Tried it, it didn't work, so we move on. Really nothing you can do otherwise, except plan for various contingencies.
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#40 squishyx

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:18 PM

It doesn't and like you I do not like the Vietnam comparison being thrown around all the time. However when the left's answer to everything is to just talk nice and hope that they change is pie in the sky thinking. Yes it sucks that we police the world, but as the most powerful country on the planet, who else will keep the peace? UN is a joke and the World Court is a laughingstock. Some people just do not get that there has, are and will always be evil in the world and the only thing they understand is the barrel of a gun and not the handing of an olive branch.

Keep the peace? open a newspaper. Not only should we not be the worlds police, we can't, and do a really sh!tty job of it. It's not possible for a country of 310 million people, whose military force is made up of 1% of that population, to police a planet of 7 billion people.

Edit: double post

Edited by squishyx, 17 July 2012 - 03:18 PM.

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