256 replies to this topic

[MadDog2020]

Even the Devils never took this kind of a hit in one offseason. Well they sort of did with Stevens and Nieds but at least they still had an offense to compete with. Nashville never had an offense with their 'good' teams, now they lose the heart and soul of their defense in a month, that's rough.

It would be beyond brutal for them to lose both guys in the same offseason- almost equally from an on-ice and PR perspective. What do you tell the fans down there? How do you sell tickets after losing your 2 best players, one of which is your captain and heart and soul? I think Nashville has to match this, as much for good PR and ticket sales as on-ice reasons.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Except Nashville's franchise and their credibility is ruined if they let Weber AND Suter go inside one calendar month. All they'd have left is Rinne and a bunch of role players. In a brutal division with St. Louis, Chicago and Detroit, good luck competing or getting fans to come the next couple years (which isn't insignificant).

I hear what you're saying...just sucks for Nashville that they will put in a position where they're going to have to sign a guy to a terrible contract, to save face for "letting" another guy go who also signed a terrible contract. I'm just of the strong belief that, if some team like the Flyers are willing to be flat-out stupid and careless with their money (hello, Ilya Bryzgalov), you don't have to do the same.

It sucks, and fans who want that instant backpage gratification don't want to hear this, but I feel sometimes you have the bite the bullet and let the other guys make the mistakes. There's other things you can do with that money, even if they don't happen right away. This more than any other reason is why I'm not all that upset that Zach left...even though it sounds like Lou was willing to cough up some pretty significant coin to keep him.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 19 July 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[DaneykoIsGod]

Forgetting possible new CBA implications for a second, if Nashville was gonna re-sign Weber next year, it would've taken a contract like this to do so anyway. This just saves a year of waiting or -- if they weren't gonna re-sign him -- trade baiting. Philly is just forcing the issue. Either get it out of the way and give your man his contract, or take these draft picks for him.

Usually I don't like offer sheets, but this is actually a pretty solid move by Holmgren.

[BlueSkirt]

I can't worry about things 10-12-14 years into the future...so my only thought is that I hope the Preds do match because having Weber on our rival for the next 5-7 years, in his prime, would be annoying to have to watch.
And for the reasons other wrote above, I think the Preds sorta have to match so they can build upon their recent success.

[NJDevs4978]

Forgetting possible new CBA implications for a second, if Nashville was gonna re-sign Weber next year, it would've taken a contract like this to do so anyway. This just saves a year of waiting or -- if they weren't gonna re-sign him -- trade baiting. Philly is just forcing the issue. Either get it out of the way and give your man his contract, or take these draft picks for him.

Usually I don't like offer sheets, but this is actually a pretty solid move by Holmgren.

I don't get the kvetching over offer sheets myself. They're legal and if you can use them to get a player or injure a competitor, why not?

That said I find it ironic Philly's doing this to Nashville after years of basically Nashville being a minor league team for Philly as it is (Timonen-Hartnell-etc). I do hope they get karmatically punished for biting the hand that fed them out of the cellar

[NJDevs4978]

I can't worry about things 10-12-14 years into the future...so my only thought is that I hope the Preds do match because having Weber on our rival for the next 5-7 years, in his prime, would be annoying to have to watch.
And for the reasons other wrote above, I think the Preds sorta have to match so they can build upon their recent success.

The other misnomer is people worrying about the length of contract. Jeff Carter signed for a million years and that contract got traded twice in the matter of months. Yeah it's 14 years but if they're getting x number of dollars up front then they're only getting y amount on the back end, makes the cap hit easier to trade/get rid of down the road when there isn't real money involved.

It's not about length of contract, it's about up-front money and cap hit. People should have learned this with the Kovy deal, length just helps the cap hit. People talk about it being a 15-year deal but Kovy's really a 10-90 contract moneywise, with the last five years being for peanuts and the cap hit helping on the front end it's a contract you could make dissapear in a couple years or so if you wanted to.

And even Kovy's deal looks like chump change compared to what's being thrown around this offseason, he didn't get any up front money.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 19 July 2012 - 07:32 AM.

[SMantzas]

A perfect comparison to the Flyers are the NY Jets. They have had some success in the past, but haven't won sh!t in a while. They also crave the spotlight. This is all coming from a Jets fan

Has: Of course offer sheets are legal, but it is an unspoken no-no. There's a reason why they don't happen very often. I think this shines a bad light on the Flyers and Holmgren deal or not

[Eztarget]

Weber doesn't have the stones(like Scotty Stevens) to lead his team to success so he wants to be a passenger on another team. He probably also wants a bit more glitz and glamour.

You mean like Steven did in Washington and St. Louis? Stop it, Stevens won because of a GREAT goalie, a great team defensive system and great team around him.

[Eztarget]

Got this from another board:

Actually, it's very simple why they will not match.

They don't have $30M in cash to write a check to Shea Weber.

On top of that, since the cap hit would only be $7.1M, they would still have to put out a significant amount of money to just get to the floor. They would end up paying $40M in cash for $20M in cap space. They don't have it.

Apparently the Flyers offer has a $26 million dollar signing bonus plus salary that first year of $4 million. Which means the Preds would have to shell out $30 million to ONE guy. Comcast might have that kind of money but the Preds ownership doesn't. I've also heard that Luke Schenn and Weber are close friends (not sure if true just message board crap) but it is probably why Weber signed the sheet to force something.

I think that's what the Flyers (and Weber who clearly wants out since they low balled him last summer and he went to arbitration) had in mind.

Book it they will work out a trade within the week. The Flyers have way too many defensemen under contract.

Weber (potentially)
Timonen
Meszaros
Coburn
Grossmann
Schenn
Gervais
Lilja
and a bunch of two way AHL guys with Phantoms like Manning, Bourdon and Gustafsson.

Edited by Eztarget, 19 July 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[NJDevs4978]

A perfect comparison to the Flyers are the NY Jets. They have had some success in the past, but haven't won sh!t in a while. They also crave the spotlight. This is all coming from a Jets fan

Has: Of course offer sheets are legal, but it is an unspoken no-no. There's a reason why they don't happen very often. I think this shines a bad light on the Flyers and Holmgren deal or not

Like the Oilers with Vanek or the Sharks with Hjalmarsson, forcing the Hawks hand with Niemi?

Offer sheets don't happen all that often because:

A) You need the player to agree
B) Teams are generally going to match barring something insane or cap busting
C) Yes, there is a bit of unspoken mutually assured destruction feared towards your own players. It's not quite the blackball material that you and others make it out to be though.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 19 July 2012 - 08:34 AM.

[Daniel]

If the Preds don't match, I wonder if they put in a complaint to the league that they should get four firsts instead of the 2 first, second and third. While the CBA amendment was supposed to be the final word on long-term contracts, very clearly it contemplated long-term deals to UFAs. So now you have the Flyers giving out a ton of upfront money, not only to massage the cap, but to lower the compensation you have to send the other way.

[SMantzas]

If the Preds don't match, I wonder if they put in a complaint to the league that they should get four firsts instead of the 2 first, second and third. While the CBA amendment was supposed to be the final word on long-term contracts, very clearly it contemplated long-term deals to UFAs. So now you have the Flyers giving out a ton of upfront money, not only to massage the cap, but to lower the compensation you have to send the other way.

They'd get four firsts because it's over 7 mill

[Daniel]

They'd get four firsts because it's over 7 mill

Nope, it's $8.4 million.

My link

[squishyx]

If the Preds don't match, I wonder if they put in a complaint to the league that they should get four firsts instead of the 2 first, second and third. While the CBA amendment was supposed to be the final word on long-term contracts, very clearly it contemplated long-term deals to UFAs. So now you have the Flyers giving out a ton of upfront money, not only to massage the cap, but to lower the compensation you have to send the other way.

The AAV hit is 7.1m, so it's well under the threshold for 4 first round picks anyway.

Edit: you posted the 2012 numbers.

Edited by squishyx, 19 July 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[Z-Man]

Lots of Weber talk down here today, obviously.

It was reported that Poile met with Weber last week and basically told him that they weren't going to have another Suter situation, so if he wasn't interested in an extension, they would trade him.

Well with reports now that SJ, NY, Detroit and Philly were all in talks for a trade, obviously Shea did not want to stay.

Now you have a situation where a player might not want to stay in Nashville, and if they match the offer sheet he's due some ungodly amount of money over the first year. No way Nashville matches the offer, pays him $20, $30 or $40 million for one year, then has to trade a player who didn't want to stay in the first place.

Like others have said, the deal is actually more cap friendly than Suter's 13 year, $98 million deal. But the Preds will have a real tough time shelling out that kind of upfront money.

[squishyx]

This is a good contract for Nashville to match, it locks up their captain forever at a reasonable cap hit. Even with all the supposed money upfront, I'm sure the team could just borrow for a season or two to make payroll. It might sting for the next couple years but eventually they will be paying very little for his services to balance it out.

[Daniel]

Lots of Weber talk down here today, obviously.

It was reported that Poile met with Weber last week and basically told him that they weren't going to have another Suter situation, so if he wasn't interested in an extension, they would trade him.

Well with reports now that SJ, NY, Detroit and Philly were all in talks for a trade, obviously Shea did not want to stay.

Now you have a situation where a player might not want to stay in Nashville, and if they match the offer sheet he's due some ungodly amount of money over the first year. No way Nashville matches the offer, pays him $20, $30 or $40 million for one year, then has to trade a player who didn't want to stay in the first place.

Like others have said, the deal is actually more cap friendly than Suter's 13 year, $98 million deal. But the Preds will have a real tough time shelling out that kind of upfront money.

Plus they can't trade him for a year if they match, unless something is worked out in the new CBA.

This is a good contract for Nashville to match, it locks up their captain forever at a reasonable cap hit. Even with all the supposed money upfront, I'm sure the team could just borrow for a season or two to make payroll. It might sting for the next couple years but eventually they will be paying very little for his services to balance it out.

Someone's gotta agree to lend you the money. Don't know you can just assume that there will be someone willing to do that.

[Triumph]

The Flyers would forfeit their next 4 1st round picks in this deal. I bet Holmgren doesn't even realize that, though.

[Martyisth3b3st]

The AAV hit is 7.1m, so it's well under the threshold for 4 first round picks anyway.

Edit: you posted the 2012 numbers.

DF118 posted this earlier addressing the rules for compensation, don't know if his source is legit or not but...

1. What's the compensation? The average value is just 7.14M, doesnt that mean it's only 2 firsts, a 2nd, and a 3rd?
A: No, as per CBA 10.4, the term used in an offersheet calculation is the lower of the term of the contract and five years. 100M/5 = 20M. 20M > 8.4M. Compensation is four first round picks.

[squishyx]

Someone's gotta agree to lend you the money. Don't know you can just assume that there will be someone willing to do that.

The NHL for starters, when they advanced the Devils some money recently they said it wasn't uncommon. We don't know the exact details of Weber's contract but if he is getting 30% of a 14 year deal in the first year, then at some point the contract has to be awesome to balance it out, so the Preds probably don't need a lot of time.

Now on the other hand if the rumors about them wanted to trade Shea are true, then they probably will take the picks, but if you don't want Weber on your team for that cap hit then you probably don't want a very successful franchise.