256 replies to this topic

[NJDevs4978]

Why would Nashville want to help the Flyers out after this? I'd let the Flyers rot and use their picks elsewhere.

Nashville still needs players from 'somewhere', hell they still need to spend money one way or the other to get to the floor.

[DaneykoIsGod]

This talk of Philly frontloading the contract with gigantic bonuses makes this offer pretty obvious "spirit of the cap" circumvention. I mean, if the whole point of a cap was to keep the financial haves and have-nots on a level playing field when it comes to attracting/keeping talent, then this gratuitous use of salary bonuses to price out a team that doesn't have big-market bucks on hand most definitely pisses all over the cap's spirit.

[Devil Dan 56]

Good contract? They have to give Weber $41 million over two calendar years.

Each insane contract like this only makes me more determined to make this joke of a league pry the first rounder out of Lou's cold, dead hands.

I'm now expecting Lou to refuse to give up the pick. Then, when the final year to give up the pick comes, he walks to the stage when the Devils were supposed to be picking, brushes whatever GM is there out of the way, and makes a selection while Bettman stares in bewilderment.

[Devils731]

This talk of Philly frontloading the contract with gigantic bonuses makes this offer pretty obvious "spirit of the cap" circumvention. I mean, if the whole point of a cap was to keep the financial haves and have-nots on a level playing field when it comes to attracting/keeping talent, then this gratuitous use of salary bonuses to price out a team that doesn't have big-market bucks on hand most definitely pisses all over the cap's spirit.

It doesn't violate the spirit because the spirit is now well defined, before the Kovy contract the spirit was vaguely defined, which led to the NHL and NHLPA arguing over what the spirit was. Now we know what violates the spirit and the NHL and NHLPA agree that this doesn't. The contract is obviously silly and is made in such a way as to benefit/harm with the cap, but it does so within the defined spirit.

[lucifer91]

This talk of Philly frontloading the contract with gigantic bonuses makes this offer pretty obvious "spirit of the cap" circumvention. I mean, if the whole point of a cap was to keep the financial haves and have-nots on a level playing field when it comes to attracting/keeping talent, then this gratuitous use of salary bonuses to price out a team that doesn't have big-market bucks on hand most definitely pisses all over the cap's spirit.

Exactly that! I don't give a rats ass about that joke of an amendment. If Owners/GMs can still do these insane signing bonuses, than your amendment isnt working.

[squishyx]

Nashville still needs players from 'somewhere', hell they still need to spend money one way or the other to get to the floor.

Right, so they take their 4 1st rounders and use them elsewhere. They need to spend 13m to hit floor, RFA's Kostitsyn and Wilson will take up almost half that and then they either sign a few FA's to overpriced 1 year deals, or use the picks with a different team.

[squishyx]

This contract takes Weber until he is 40 and in his last 3 years pays him 1m each. Kovy's original contract took him until he was 44 and paid him 3.5m over the last 6 years. One is cap circumvention, the other is not.

Don't forget, this year we are paying Kovalchuk 11m (and the next 4 years get worse) for a cap hit for 6.6m... and this is the contract that the league accepted.

[Devil Fan]

Weber, Suter and Rinne couldn't stop a Phoenix team and I assume He won't make a huge difference in Philly during the playoffs, especially Rinne is a better goalie than Bryz. Take the picks, Poile.

[NJDevs4978]

This contract takes Weber until he is 40 and in his last 3 years pays him 1m each. Kovy's original contract took him until he was 44 and paid him 3.5m over the last 6 years. One is cap circumvention, the other is not.

Don't forget, this year we are paying Kovalchuk 11m (and the next 4 years get worse) for a cap hit for 6.6m... and this is the contract that the league accepted.

And neither contract violated any rules. Funny how the spirit of the law only applies to us, and in a big way. Kovy didn't get a dime up front. Thank goodness he was a FA two years ago and not now.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 19 July 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[DaneykoIsGod]

It doesn't violate the spirit because the spirit is now well defined, before the Kovy contract the spirit was vaguely defined, which led to the NHL and NHLPA arguing over what the spirit was. Now we know what violates the spirit and the NHL and NHLPA agree that this doesn't. The contract is obviously silly and is made in such a way as to benefit/harm with the cap, but it does so within the defined spirit.

The "spirit" is now well-defined in terms of what was violated with the Kovy (and Luongo, Pronger, etc.) contract(s). They closed that loophole and forced GMs to find a new one, and find a new one they did. Just like an amendment needed to be made to address spirit violations with back-end, small-money years, a new amendment is now clearly needed to address front-end, big-bonus years.

Something as vague as "spirit" can't be defined in one shot. Though, in the conspiracy theorist part of my brain, I'm thinking that because this is Philly nothing will happen.

[Devils731]

And neither contract violated any rules. Funny how the spirit of the law only applies to us, and in a big way.

Because the spirit is narrowly defined now, before it was barely defined at all. The league told the GMs those contracts were getting out of hand by opening up the "investigations" into the Hossa and Luongo(I believe) contracts. The Devils gambled and lost, but the league had sent the signals out that they were unhappy with the deals and the Devils made the deal that was the most ridiculous.

Now with the "spirit" defined, the league would lose if it tried to challenge this contract.

[ZeroGravityFat]

Dmitry Chesnokov ‏@dchesnokov
My friend is wondering if he will now have a Weber Surcharge in his Comcast bill hidden somewhere.

[squishyx]

And neither contract violated any rules. Funny how the spirit of the law only applies to us, and in a big way.

There is a rule that says you can't circumvent the cap. Article 26 of the CBA. There is no rule that says you can't screw over a small market team with signing bonuses. Maybe their should be? Idk, I think it's hard to argue the Devils contract wasn't a violation of the rules, I just disagreed with the penalty (they should have just tossed the contract).

[Eztarget]

Why would Nashville want to help the Flyers out after this? I'd let the Flyers rot and use their picks elsewhere.

I don't think they want to help them out. The Preds will want to save face and keep their fans interested. The Flyers have front loaded this deal with a lot of signing bonuses and the big thing about them is that they are payable regardless of a work stoppage. Which means if there is another lockout then the Preds would HAVE to pay out that money. The Preds do not have Comcast's checkbook backing them and instead rely on gate receipts to pay their players. That means within one calendar year they will have to pay out a LOT of money to one guy. It is in their best interest to work out a trade and get some players in return to help them meet the CAP floor, keep their team competitive, and keep their fans happy (between NASCAR events).

[Devils731]

The "spirit" is now well-defined in terms of what was violated with the Kovy (and Luongo, Pronger, etc.) contract(s). They closed that loophole and forced GMs to find a new one, and find a new one they did. Just like an amendment needed to be made to address spirit violations with back-end, small-money years, a new amendment is now clearly needed to address front-end, big-bonus years.

Something as vague as "spirit" can't be defined in one shot. Though, in the conspiracy theorist part of my brain, I'm thinking that because this is Philly nothing will happen.

The "spirit" is about artificially lowering the cap hit, which Kovy's contract did enormously. The league set out rules to make sure those contracts couldn't get as crazy out of hand as they did and this contract doesn't violate those rules, so by that "spirit" the contract is fine.

Prior teams have tried to jack up front ends of contracts to make sure RFA contracts aren't matched. Since the league never specifically banned the practice, even after the fact, in the next CBA's then they're obviously ok with them.

There is basically no chance a judge would overturn this deal with the explicit rules now in place.

[Eztarget]

This talk of Philly frontloading the contract with gigantic bonuses makes this offer pretty obvious "spirit of the cap" circumvention. I mean, if the whole point of a cap was to keep the financial haves and have-nots on a level playing field when it comes to attracting/keeping talent, then this gratuitous use of salary bonuses to price out a team that doesn't have big-market bucks on hand most definitely pisses all over the cap's spirit.

I agree but Minnesota just did it with Suter/Parise and the fact that the CBA is up do you really think the league is going to go after teams right now?

[Daniel]

This contract takes Weber until he is 40 and in his last 3 years pays him 1m each. Kovy's original contract took him until he was 44 and paid him 3.5m over the last 6 years. One is cap circumvention, the other is not.

Don't forget, this year we are paying Kovalchuk 11m (and the next 4 years get worse) for a cap hit for 6.6m... and this is the contract that the league accepted.

The amendment to the CBA makes any comparison apples and oranges. And the league clearly wasn't going to accept Kovy's deal without the amendment.

Whether the Weber offer sheet goes against the "spirit" of the CBA is irrelevant at this point. Initially, the league argued, the possibility of long-term front loaded was not an intended or contemplated result. Later, however, the league had the opportunity to specifically address that concern and came up with definite boundaries. They'd be hardpressed to argue to an arbitrator "we wuz robbed" a second time, no matter how favorable to the league he might be.

And again, the Flyers are not coming out of this unscathed. The cap is likely going down and they're losing four first round picks in the process. All it takes is an injury plagued season and Bryz to perform like he did in the playoffs, and one of those picks can be in the top ten.

[devilsrule33]

Because the spirit is narrowly defined now, before it was barely defined at all. The league told the GMs those contracts were getting out of hand by opening up the "investigations" into the Hossa and Luongo(I believe) contracts. The Devils gambled and lost, but the league had sent the signals out that they were unhappy with the deals and the Devils made the deal that was the most ridiculous.

Now with the "spirit" defined, the league would lose if it tried to challenge this contract.

The league was also under pressure by many GMs to punish the Devils. They let Lou off the hook in 2006 with the Mogilny LTIR business and I believe the suspension of Malahkov, which pissed off many. If those don't happen, maybe the penalty isn't as harsh.

[squishyx]

I don't think they want to help them out. The Preds will want to save face and keep their fans interested. The Flyers have front loaded this deal with a lot of signing bonuses and the big thing about them is that they are payable regardless of a work stoppage. Which means if there is another lockout then the Preds would HAVE to pay out that money. The Preds do not have Comcast's checkbook backing them and instead rely on gate receipts to pay their players. That means within one calendar year they will have to pay out a LOT of money to one guy. It is in their best interest to work out a trade and get some players in return to help them meet the CAP floor, keep their team competitive, and keep their fans happy (between NASCAR events).

I understand the argument that the Pred's don't have the disposable income to weather any kind of labor war. I'm not sure I'd risk it but hey assuming that's the case, you have 4 additional 1st round picks and you only need about 6-7m in cap space after you lock up your other RFA's. You can use that trade bait with other teams, or sign FA's to overpriced 1 year deals, or wait to see if the floor is lowered rather then helping out the team that just stole your captain by muscling you out of the market. As you note the Flyers are in cap trouble with all their defense, I'd let them sweat it out and solve their own problem. I think Nashville loses more "face" if they make a deal with Philly.

[Triumph]

Don't forget that the Kovalchuk contract as it is now has a lower cap hit than it would have under the new rules. That might not sound like a big deal now, but it would've been a big deal when the Devils were less than $10,000 from the cap.