1718 replies to this topic

[DevsMan84]

Hopefully that's the case.

And hopefully they will cut that crap out sooner rather than later. I want hockey, not a dick measuring contest by a bunch of people in suits.

[Triumph]

I don't think anyone expected there to be absolutely no days lost, so saying September would have been early is a little unrealistic. When we can still salvage an 82 game season, I call that early. In the last lockout, these sorts of offers weren't made for another 6 months.

Who cares about the last lockout - different head of the PA, totally different way of running things, and probably 70% of the PA turned over in that time.

My point is that if you don't want to miss days, and you consider saving the entire season important, you make offers to that end.

And your second statement about asking players who rarely hear no to take paycuts when the NHL is at record revenues just shows how out of touch the players are with reality. The owners aren't lying when they say that most teams can't make money and that the current system is unsustainable. By offering the 50/50 deal, the owners put a lot of their cards out on the table, and I think they expected the same from the players. The 50/50 offer was in no way great for the players, but it was a legitimate starting point for serious negotiations. For the players to essentially spit on that shows a lack of willingness from the players to settle on a reasonable deal that can work for both sides. That's not how you do negotiations when something really matters to you (ie, your fans and the sport you play).

What? The owners are lying. If they established revenue sharing, this wouldn't be the case. Notice how the NHL's offer doesn't do all that much in that regard. Notice how the salary floor is still in place - it's just lower than where it is. Are Phoenix and Florida profitable with a $40M salary floor? No. And that floor would only go up. Their revenues would not.

The NHL's issue is that a luxury tax serves the league a lot better. But we're not going to get that, not after what they gave up to get the cap in 2004. Notice who's negotiating today - Leopold, Edwards, Jacobs, Leonsis. You think these men made money or lost money during the last CBA?

NHLPA seems to be acting petulantly in this process. The NHLPA refused to give an offer, forcing the NHL to counter their own offer, then the NHLPA has apparently presented 3 offers that don't have anything do with what the NHL has been offering. It doesn't seem to me that the NHLPA is seriously negotiating towards a solution if my outside impression matches what's happening.

You're going on Bettman's word here, when it's in his interest to storm out and claim he's not interested in negotiating on those deals, leaving the NHL deal on the table as the only 'legitimate' one. You have to wait and see what was in the PA offers.

[MadDog2020]

I don't think anyone expected there to be absolutely no days lost, so saying September would have been early is a little unrealistic. When we can still salvage an 82 game season, I call that early. In the last lockout, these sorts of offers weren't made for another 6 months.

And your second statement about asking players who rarely hear no to take paycuts when the NHL is at record revenues just shows how out of touch the players are with reality. The owners aren't lying when they say that most teams can't make money and that the current system is unsustainable. By offering the 50/50 deal, the owners put a lot of their cards out on the table, and I think they expected the same from the players. The 50/50 offer was in no way great for the players, but it was a legitimate starting point for serious negotiations. For the players to essentially spit on that shows a lack of willingness from the players to settle on a reasonable deal that can work for both sides. That's not how you do negotiations when something really matters to you (ie, your fans and the sport you play).

. Yes, but you have to understand something: Donald Fehr is doing the negotiating. And Donald Fehr doesn't give a high flying fvck about hockey fans, or the game of hockey. At all. Just like he didn't care about baseball fans and the game of baseball. At all. Donald Fehr cares about two things: money and winning. That all, and that's it. Which is why I punched my desk when I heard the PA hired that rat fvck. I knew this would fvcking happen.

[Triumph]

. Yes, but you have to understand something: Donald Fehr is doing the negotiating. And Donald Fehr doesn't give a high flying fvck about hockey fans, or the game of hockey. At all. Just like he didn't care about baseball fans and the game of baseball. At all. Donald Fehr cares about two things: money and winning. That all, and that's it. Which is why I punched my desk when I heard the PA hired that rat fvck. I knew this would fvcking happen.

Yeah, as opposed to the owners, who love the game of hockey so much that they want us to observe how true the phrase 'Absence makes the heart grow fonder' is.

[DevsMan84]

I am anxious to see what the details are of these three offers.

If they are even released...

[Satans Hockey]

Yeah, as opposed to the owners, who love the game of hockey so much that they want us to observe how true the phrase 'Absence makes the heart grow fonder' is.

Neither of them give a sh!t about us or the game of hockey. That's the most disgusting thing to come out of all this, we all knew it was true over the years anyway but it's a lot easier to ignore that fact when they aren't saying it straight to our face like they have been during this process.

[enjoythesilence]

"I wish I had better news." - Gary Bettman

- Me

grade a bullsh!t. fuvking grade a backwards ass bullsh!t

[Daniel]

. Yes, but you have to understand something: Donald Fehr is doing the negotiating. And Donald Fehr doesn't give a high flying fvck about hockey fans, or the game of hockey. At all. Just like he didn't care about baseball fans and the game of baseball. At all. Donald Fehr cares about two things: money and winning. That all, and that's it. Which is why I punched my desk when I heard the PA hired that rat fvck. I knew this would fvcking happen.

Can we stop with this whining about "not caring about the fans." Even if none of the owners or players would give you a nickel if you were lying on the street starving, they're all well aware of where their money ultimately comes from. It isn't in the owners' or players' interests to have low television ratings or empty arenas.

[Chuck the Duck]

They did, but any reasonable observer should conclude that they were trying to do that, which makes a person think about their motives all along. The players didn't win a PR battle in baseball, did they? Absolutely not - but they avoided a salary cap and made a lot more $.

This isn't baseball. The public was outraged over that strike and the loss of the 1994 World Series. It was the lead story on the newscasts every night. Moreover, a large majority of team owners were losing way too much money to let it keep going. Therefore, the owners eventually caved. In hockey, the money just isn't there for 22 of the 30 teams to cave into the player's demands and, quite frankly, nobody in the US outside us core die hard fans gives a sh!t about the NHL to put pressure on the owners and players to get this resolved. Hell, the NHL lockout has only gotten like 42 seconds of coverage on ESPN since September 15.

The players have no leverage here and they, along with the fans, are going to lose again when this gets resolved (and the players take a deal largely based upon the one they just rejected), probably sometime in September of 2013.

Edited by Chuck the Duck, 18 October 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[DevsMan84]

Neither of them give a sh!t about us or the game of hockey. That's the most disgusting thing to come out of all this, we all knew it was true over the years anyway but it's a lot easier to ignore that fact when they aren't saying it straight to our face like they have been during this process.

The best part about this is that when a deal is finally struck we know that once the new CBA expires we will be right back here like this with another lockout.

I really am expecting a lockout for every single time a CBA expires. Only hockey could do this.

[NJDevs4978]

Yeah, as opposed to the owners, who love the game of hockey so much that they want us to observe how true the phrase 'Absence makes the heart grow fonder' is.

Like I said, they can all **** themselves.

And yes the owners should have offered 'some' concession to the players to at least give them a carrot to accept 50-50 with all the other nonsense (five-year contracts, pushing FA back to 28-8, etc)...but offering something that isn't any kind of improvement is a total joke. Either offer a non 50-50 deal with just about everything else in it, or offer the 50-50 deal with some player improvements. You don't just throw a hissy fit and walk away, be a ****ing adult.

[Amberite]

Yeah, as opposed to the owners, who love the game of hockey so much that they want us to observe how true the phrase 'Absence makes the heart grow fonder' is.

You're right, the owners suck too, but at least the owners tried to make an effort with the 50/50 offer in order to try to get out of this lockout. Again, it wasn't a great offer but it was more than good enough for the owners and players to start negotiating. I think the NHL even said that they had factored in 10 days of negotiations in order to salvage an 82 game season. Tell me whatever you want about the previous lockout and about who made money and who didn't. What happened back then doesn't matter for the same reasons you told me - it was back then. What I see right now in front of me is a good base point of negotiations offered by the owners, and an unrealistic counter-proposal by the players which only serves to keep the lockout in place. Simply put, the owners put forth SOME effort and offered some concessions, while the players are singing the same tired song.

Edited by Amberite, 18 October 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[NJDevs4978]

Can we stop with this whining about "not caring about the fans." Even if none of the owners or players would give you a nickel if you were lying on the street starving, they're all well aware of where their money ultimately comes from. It isn't in the owners' or players' interests to have low television ratings or empty arenas.

No, but they all arrogantly think they can pull this bull**** every six years and the fans will always come back because they came back once. Ultimately, fans are going to have to be the ones to end this vicious labor cycle when they get a voice. The way baseball fans did after '94 (attendance dropping 20%, all kinds of backlash toward the players, etc).

The best part about this is that when a deal is finally struck we know that once the new CBA expires we will be right back here like this with another lockout.

I really am expecting a lockout for every single time a CBA expires. Only hockey could do this.

There's no reason to expect any different until owners and players are made to feel the fans' wrath.

[MadDog2020]

Yeah, as opposed to the owners, who love the game of hockey so much that they want us to observe how true the phrase 'Absence makes the heart grow fonder' is.

. Where the hell did I absolve the owners of anything? They're a$$holes too. I was responding directly to Amberite, who basically said the players should negotiate differently if they truly want to play. I merely pointed out who is steering the boat for the players.

[Daniel]

No, but they all arrogantly think they can pull this bull**** every six years and the fans will always come back because they came back once. Ultimately, fans are going to have to be the ones to end this vicious labor cycle when they get a voice. The way baseball fans did after '94 (attendance dropping 20%, all kinds of backlash toward the players, etc).

Again, they're well aware that's a possibility. Arrogance has nothing to do with it.

[NJDevs4978]

Again, they're well aware that's a possibility. Arrogance has nothing to do with it.

Bettman's own words a few weeks ago, they're confident the fans will come back because we have 'the greatest fans in the world'.

I hope it's not too late to get a sth refund, I was going to let them just keep it and get a credit but now I'm becoming convinced there'll be no season again, so I'll probably wind up asking for a refund once this deadline passes.

[Chuck the Duck]

The best part about this is that when a deal is finally struck we know that once the new CBA expires we will be right back here like this with another lockout.

I really am expecting a lockout for every single time a CBA expires. Only hockey could do this.

The players are right in trying to fix the inequity between the large market and small market teams. If revenue sharing doesn't get fixed so we aren't in the same position 6-10 years from now, you will be right and there will be another lockout. I firmly believe that the revenues should be split 50/50 but, at the same time, true revenue sharing needs to take place between the NHL clubs.

[MadDog2020]

Can we stop with this whining about "not caring about the fans." Even if none of the owners or players would give you a nickel if you were lying on the street starving, they're all well aware of where their money ultimately comes from. It isn't in the owners' or players' interests to have low television ratings or empty arenas.

. I'm not whining. I'm stating a fact. Neither side ever cares about the fans in sports labor situations. Its just the way it is. I've accepted it, because it's not gonna change, it doesn't matter what sport it is. Fans bitch and moan about not coming back to whatever sport- and some don't. But over time, the majority of fans forget about these things and still spend money on the NHL, or the NBA, or the NFL. This is what both sides count on, because they pretty much know it to be true. Which affords them the luxury of not giving a sh!t. They know sports fans are addicts who need their fix.

[DevsMan84]

The players are right in trying to fix the inequity between the large market and small market teams. If revenue sharing doesn't get fixed so we aren't in the same position 6-10 years from now, you will be right and there will be another lockout. I firmly believe that the revenues should be split 50/50 but, at the same time, true revenue sharing needs to take place between the NHL clubs.

Oh that def needs to be fixed, no question there. That is the one point that I do agree with the players on.

However, with hockey, the NHL and NHLPA, they will find a way or reason to bitch about at the next CBA neogiations and we will be right back here complaining about different issues.

I just pray that I will be eating my own words here when the next CBA expires and they actually get a new one going without a lockout or strike.

[95Crash]

I don't know why, but I'm still optimistic a deal can get done soon.

Just because the players tried to get a little more for themselves in this latest meeting doesn't mean they won't come back down closer to where the owners stand in the next meeting.

Like LeBrun said, it's all posturing.