1718 replies to this topic

[Devs1965]

Didnt the PA make 0 offers/proposals for like a month. Then when the league made the 50/50 proposal last week, then the PA made 3 proposals, which were immediately shot down? While Bettman svcks, the Fehr twins don't know how to negotiate and are not in it to save the season. I hate everyone involved in this. Both sides are not willing to negotiate as they are afraid it would show weakness. F-em all.

I am starting to feel the same way both sides are in a pissing match and most of both sides are only concerned with who blinks first.
screw em! Wake me up when its over!

[Triumph]

Didnt the PA make 0 offers/proposals for like a month. Then when the league made the 50/50 proposal last week, then the PA made 3 proposals, which were immediately shot down? While Bettman svcks, the Fehr twins don't know how to negotiate and are not in it to save the season. I hate everyone involved in this. Both sides are not willing to negotiate as they are afraid it would show weakness. F-em all.

The Fehr twins don't know how to negotiate? Fehr was the head of the MLBPA for 25 years, how many labor stoppages were there in that time?

All you have to do is go up the thread and read what I said a week ago. This is inevitable. The 82 game season was done once Bettman walked out of the last negotiation claiming the PA won't talk on their terms. And in fact, the 82 game season was done with ages ago when the NHL decided it was going to lock the players out (I would say 2010 but that might be pushing it). We'll get a plenty long season in, longer than I would have thought if you'd asked me 6 months ago.

Edited by Triumph, 24 October 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[SMantzas]

The Fehr twins don't know how to negotiate? Fehr was the head of the MLBPA for 25 years, how many labor stoppages were there in that time?

All you have to do is go up the thread and read what I said a week ago. This is inevitable. The 82 game season was done once Bettman walked out of the last negotiation claiming the PA won't talk on their terms. And in fact, the 82 game season was done with ages ago when the NHL decided it was going to lock the players out (I would say 2010 but that might be pushing it). We'll get a plenty long season in, longer than I would have thought if you'd asked me 6 months ago.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but what is this based on? You know they won't talk for another week, and even then, I doubt anyone budges this early

[Triumph]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but what is this based on? You know they won't talk for another week, and even then, I doubt anyone budges this early

The budging already happened. It will just take time for both sides to acknowledge it. Both sides think the other is ready to crack, which means that one side actually is. However, each side is now trying to spin it that they are not ready to crack, which is why you will see a lot of scare tactics via the media controlled by the owners (TSN guys) and media controlled by the players (Larry Brooks, a couple of others). It's the storm before the calm - a compromise will appear to both sides and they'll get down to it. I said CBA by December 1st and I still think that is conservative.

[SMantzas]

From what I've gathered the union seems fehrly (ha ha) divided. I think some players are adamant about getting a favorable deal, while some just want to play. If I were Bettman, I would take it a step further and cancel November now. He needs to try to crumble the union and not be so focused on Fehr or PR

[Triumph]

From what I've gathered the union seems fehrly (ha ha) divided. I think some players are adamant about getting a favorable deal, while some just want to play. If I were Bettman, I would take it a step further and cancel November now. He needs to try to crumble the union and not be so focused on Fehr or PR

That will just strengthen their resolve. Why cancel games that could be played? That makes them less likely to come to a deal, which is ultimately what you need. The NHL knows it cannot afford another missed season.

There are always going to be players who want to play now because NHL careers are short. And yeah, some guys have already lost money that they won't get back, but they could lose even more if they cave now.

[NJDevs4978]

That will just strengthen their resolve. Why cancel games that could be played? That makes them less likely to come to a deal, which is ultimately what you need. The NHL knows it cannot afford another missed season.

There are always going to be players who want to play now because NHL careers are short. And yeah, some guys have already lost money that they won't get back, but they could lose even more if they cave now.

From your lips to god's ears. Unlike you I don't have as much faith that the NHL 'knows it can't afford another missed season', intelligence and reason are not two things I associate with Bettman and the hard-line owners. Or Fehr and some of the players.

We'll know by Thanksgiving, if the Winter Classic gets canceled it's game over for 2012-13.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 24 October 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[Devil Dan 56]

I understand all the posturing and refusal to be the first to blink, but at this point, I kind of just want my season ticket money back. They've really soured me on the whole thing now that we've blown a month of the season away. I'll always love the game, and I'll always go to games, but I'm not sure I'll ever want to dump this much money on them again.

It's a weird feeling. I finally got to the point where I could add season tickets into my personal budget a couple of years ago, and now the two sides have pretty much disgusted me. Maybe I'll feel different when a deal is reached and there's an opening day to focus on, but I can imagine they will DEFINITELY be losing some fans out of this.

Edited by Devil Dan 56, 24 October 2012 - 04:02 PM.

[Triumph]

From your lips to god's ears. Unlike you I don't have as much faith that the NHL 'knows it can't afford another missed season', intelligence and reason are not two things I associate with Bettman and the hard-line owners. Or Fehr and some of the players.

We'll know by Thanksgiving, if the Winter Classic gets canceled it's game over for 2012-13.

That's totally absurd. The sides are way too close for there to be a canceled season, Winter Classic or no. You do realize that the NHL will make money from a shortened season, right?

[NCDevsFan]

You mean all those games I have been watching on the NHL network are just replays from previous seasons?

[Chuck the Duck]

I know a lot of this is posturing, and you can't rely upon anything Bettman says, but this makes things sound really bad going forward. Sure sounds like the owners have thrown the gauntlet down and told the NHLPA that, if they don't negotiate off of the owner's last offer, then there is nothing to be discussed. This sucks.

http://espn.go.com/n...-82-game-season

[DJ Eco]

You mean all those games I have been watching on the NHL network are just replays from previous seasons?

[NJDevs4978]

That's totally absurd. The sides are way too close for there to be a canceled season, Winter Classic or no. You do realize that the NHL will make money from a shortened season, right?

They won't make nearly as much money or have as much buzz as they would with a Winter Classic. There's no reason for them to give more concessions in late January than they would in November. The only way there's a season after November is if the players cave and I doubt Fehr's lets that happen.

You say they're close, but they've only discussed HRR and its debatable whether they're close there. Judging by the NHL's 'final' offer they're not close on anything else.

[Triumph]

They won't make nearly as much money or have as much buzz as they would with a Winter Classic. There's no reason for them to give more concessions in late January than they would in November. The only way there's a season after November is if the players cave and I doubt Fehr's lets that happen.

You say they're close, but they've only discussed HRR and its debatable whether they're close there. Judging by the NHL's 'final' offer they're not close on anything else.

It's not debatable. They are very close - 3 million per season per team. That's a bridgeable gap.

The players did not hire Fehr to have them lose another season. There have to be people in the union who know what happened last time. They hired him to get some money back from the owners. Remember, the NHL had record revenues with player salaries at 57% of revenue - they are the ones risking a lot. You underestimate just how awful it would be for the league to not play a season.

It makes sense for each side to concede more as each side risks more by not conceding - that's how this is supposed to work.

[NJDevs4978]

It's not debatable. They are very close - 3 million per season per team. That's a bridgeable gap.

The players did not hire Fehr to have them lose another season. There have to be people in the union who know what happened last time. They hired him to get some money back from the owners. Remember, the NHL had record revenues with player salaries at 57% of revenue - they are the ones risking a lot. You underestimate just how awful it would be for the league to not play a season.

It makes sense for each side to concede more as each side risks more by not conceding - that's how this is supposed to work.

I'm not underestimating how bad another lost season would be, I think you're underestimating how blinded both sides are by their own ego, and the fact the league did recover from the last lockout. Don't assume that's not a factor in risking another lost season.

[MadDog2020]

I'm not underestimating how bad another lost season would be, I think you're underestimating how blinded both sides are by their own ego, and the fact the league did recover from the last lockout. Don't assume that's not a factor in risking another lost season.

. Yeah, I want to be hopeful as well... But we're talking about the NHL and the NHLPA. Common sense and logic don't apply to these people.

[Triumph]

I'm not underestimating how bad another lost season would be, I think you're underestimating how blinded both sides are by their own ego, and the fact the league did recover from the last lockout. Don't assume that's not a factor in risking another lost season.

They were closer a week ago than the NHL and NHLPA ever were in 2004-2005. The NHL loses big time if it loses a season - what does it have to gain? Is it really going to get a significantly better deal? I don't think so. You're believing the posturing. I've stopped believing it.

[aylbert]

I think a deal will be done... but I think the union will cave more than the NHL.
Losing a season is bad for both parties, but ultimately, I think the NHL fares 'better' than the common player would in that scenario.

You'll see a breaking in ranks if it gets to that point...

The owners from the very beginning seem set on 50/50...
The players seem very set on no rollbacks, etc.

I think in the end you'll see both. Fehr right now is calling it a 12.5% paycut for players... implying all teams spend to the cap. As long as the NHL allows for some way to set the cap as 50% of HRR, and not rollback salaries or allow contracts to be written off without compensation... I think you'll see them agree. Either through diminishing cap exemptions (ie first year you can exceed the cap by 10% with existing contracts only, 5% 2nd, etc, 3rd year - regular cap) With contracts being resolved through attrition, or regular buyouts, etc.

[Triumph]

Fehr's implication is not that all teams spend to the cap - the cap and floor are determined by the midpoint. If everyone spends to the cap, escrow likely takes back salary unless the NHL beats last year's revenue by a significant margin.

The owners are going to get 50/50, just not right away. As Fehr has pointed out, yes, the NFL and NBA went to 50/50, but no one's paychecks were cut. Everyone got what their salary said.

[NJDevs4978]

They were closer a week ago than the NHL and NHLPA ever were in 2004-2005. The NHL loses big time if it loses a season - what does it have to gain? Is it really going to get a significantly better deal? I don't think so. You're believing the posturing. I've stopped believing it.

I'm not as concerned about the public posturing as I am the people involved and their track records, from Bettman and the owners constantly using lockouts to get what they want, to Fehr's history of labor strife and intractibility in baseball. You literally couldn't have two worse people in charge with so much on the line for the league.