Considering the owners have made all of two real offers and the players one, I don't think 'either' side has negotiated in good faith, really. If this was the players endgame though, why wouldn't they just get this started earlier? I guess they had to play this out long enough to show the moderates that the NHL was intractable since decertification needs to be voted on.
Lockout 2012-2013 (Hockey's back!)
Started by Dead, Aug 31 2012 03:58 PM
1718 replies to this topic
#821
NJDevs4978
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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:45 AM
"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns
The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03
The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03
#822
Daniel
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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:46 AM
I'm pretty sure this has woken up the owners. Up until this point they haven't really been fair, given in to any concessions. The owners aren't really negotiating in good faith, borderline in my opinion.
I doubt it. After seeing what happened with the NFL, the NHL owners definitely knew it was something in the NHLPAs toolkit. The NHL owners, or most of them, unlike the NFL are willing to call the bluff. If they were prepared to fold up shop in 2005 when decertification wasn't in the cards, imagine what they'd do now.
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Hello fellow American. This you should vote me. I leave power. Good. Thank you, thank you. If you vote me, I'm hot. What? Taxes, they'll be lower... son. The Democratic vote is the right thing to do Philadelphia, so do.
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#823
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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:47 AM
I doubt it. After seeing what happened with the NFL, the NHL owners definitely knew it was something in the NHLPAs toolkit. The NHL owners, or most of them, unlike the NFL are willing to call the bluff. If they were prepared to fold up shop in 2005 when decertification wasn't in the cards, imagine what they'd do now.
Decertification doesn't really help the owners either though, since the cap/linkage would go bye-bye if they lost in court, as would the ability of at least 2/3 of the league to compete. It would be mutually assured destruction for all but the wealthiest markets and players.
Edited by NJDevs4978, 23 November 2012 - 12:48 AM.
"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns
The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03
The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03
#824
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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:51 AM
Decertification doesn't really help the owners either though, since the cap/linkage would go bye-bye if they lost in court, as would the ability of at least 2/3 of the league to compete. It would be mutually assured destruction for all but the wealthiest markets and players.
Exactly. Unlike an NFL franchise, owning a hockey team is not a licesnse to print money. In other words, the people who own half of the teams in the league will say, I don't need to own a hockey team that badly.
I collect spores, molds and fungus.
Hello fellow American. This you should vote me. I leave power. Good. Thank you, thank you. If you vote me, I'm hot. What? Taxes, they'll be lower... son. The Democratic vote is the right thing to do Philadelphia, so do.
How do you spot risk? How do you avoid risk? And what makes it so risky?
#825
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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:54 AM
Yes I know it's much more than pre2005 (that is just short hand for basically no rules at all). And otherwise, you're missing my point. Decertification is indeed a nightmare for eighty percent of the league. So much so that without labor price fixing, they cannot survive, or could only survive playing in a B league, or being the Washington Generals to teams like the Rangers and Leafs, the exact same way that most English and Spanish soccer teams are complete jokes when compared to the big boys like Man U and Real Madrid. Decertification would be a pyrric victory for the players, and would be the end for teams like the Devils. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to get $15 million a year from the Rangers if you're Corey Perry (if they could throw $9 milion a year at Bobby Holik ten years ago, $15 mill per year is what a team that can pay as much as it wants would pay for Perry). Otherwise you'll get the $100k salary that a team like Florida could afford to pay you now that all of the other talented players are playing elsewhere.
If you don't believe me, please tell me how Man U has won more than half of the premier league championships over the past twenty years? Hint, it isn't because its management is good at sabremetrics.
I don't know how revenues are generated in English soccer. In the NHL right now, national TV revenues are shared even though some teams clearly generate almost nothing and some teams generate lots of money. But England is different than the US and Canada - English cities are much closer together. It'd be like if the entire NHL were concentrated in the US Northeast.
So yeah, a super league would probably form, but it would not mean the end for the Devils at all, much as how there are still many, many soccer clubs in England despite the fact that Man U is dominant. Furthermore, I don't think many NHL owners are vanity owners - among top teams, the Wings and Rangers are owned by people who would lose money to win a championship, but I don't see many others.
All this is moot - the NHL will never let it get to decertification if the gap is less than $1M per season per team, like it is now.
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#826
Zubie#8
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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:03 AM
EDIT
Beat me to it.All this is moot - the NHL will never let it get to decertification if the gap is less than $1M per season per team, like it is now.
Edited by Zubie#8, 23 November 2012 - 01:04 AM.
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#827
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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:15 PM
With everything now cancelled through Dec. 14, the best-case scenario for the NHL is a shortened schedule of approximately 60 games per team.
per TSN
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410123
per TSN
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410123
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Is we have Kovy?
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#828
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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:42 PM
Not really related but just met Daly at Belissimos in Little Falls. Tried to make conversation, not at interested in talking about it...
#829
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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:30 AM
Not really related but just met Daly at Belissimos in Little Falls. Tried to make conversation, not at interested in talking about it...
Can't blame him.
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#830
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:10 PM
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NHL and NHLPA have agreed to allow U.S. federal mediators to get involved in the labor dispute.
Interesting. Is this binding? I suppose not.
#831
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:11 PM
I'm assuming then bringing in a mediator is a good thing no?
#832
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:14 PM
A third party mediating? That is a very much needed step in my opinion. Either side can't even agree on the basic points of their negotiations.
#833
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:19 PM
Mediation is good but it appears to be non binding so it may be useless as well. My hope would just be the mediator is able to get the 2 sides face to face more often.
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#834
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:23 PM
It may not help, but it literally can't hurt. There's only potential upside to this.
"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns
The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03
The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03
#835
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:31 PM
This whole process is so frustrating, I'd like to put them all in a cage and last 1 standing wins, another lost season and I might start to thin of the NHl like i do baseball, which basically means not at all....
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#836
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:52 PM
Good. With a mediator in place, maybe they can agree on what kind of lunch they'd like to order in slightly less than 6 hours.
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#837
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:19 PM
Not to ruin any optimism, but they brought in mediators back in '04-05. Multiple times, IIRC.
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#838
Triumph
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:21 PM
Not to ruin any optimism, but they brought in mediators back in '04-05. Multiple times, IIRC.
You are correct, but it was much later in the process.
Even so, mediators won't help here. What's there to mediate when one side refuses to compromise in any way?
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#839
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:22 PM
'04-05 they were much further apart philosophically and otherwise. And I believe the first time they broached mediation was just days before the season ended, wtf was it going to do then? At least now they have time to let the process run its course.
lol at maintaining it's 'one' side that refuses to compromise. When the PA comes up with a fully linked 50-50 system then I'll buy that comment. All they did last week was try to package a favorable proposal differently.
You are correct, but it was much later in the process.
Even so, mediators won't help here. What's there to mediate when one side refuses to compromise in any way?
lol at maintaining it's 'one' side that refuses to compromise. When the PA comes up with a fully linked 50-50 system then I'll buy that comment. All they did last week was try to package a favorable proposal differently.
"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns
The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03
The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03
#840
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:08 PM
lol at maintaining it's 'one' side that refuses to compromise. When the PA comes up with a fully linked 50-50 system then I'll buy that comment. All they did last week was try to package a favorable proposal differently.
Nothing like buying the league's drivel hook line and sinker. Why is 50-50 fair, and why should the system be fully linked, and why should the PA have to make a full offer that the league accepts? It's called a negotiation. If the league doesn't like something in the PA's offers, it should counter. Instead it runs out of the room telling anyone who will listen that Fehr doesn't represent the players' interests, that he refuses to negotiate, and people believe it.
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