1718 replies to this topic

[Devils731]

Nothing like buying the league's drivel hook line and sinker. Why is 50-50 fair, and why should the system be fully linked, and why should the PA have to make a full offer that the league accepts? It's called a negotiation. If the league doesn't like something in the PA's offers, it should counter. Instead it runs out of the room telling anyone who will listen that Fehr doesn't represent the players' interests, that he refuses to negotiate, and people believe it.

Isn't that how negotiations started? League gave offer, players refused it, say NHL is being unfair, no nhlpa counter.

Then we wait a couple weeks and owners make another offer since players refuse. Nhlpa comes back with 3 bare bones offers, addressing almost nothing the owners had touched on, and the players hadn't even taken the time to run numbers on.

Sounds like you've bought the nhlpa "drivel" that they're working hard against an unfair partner.

[NJDevs4978]

Nothing like buying the league's drivel hook line and sinker. Why is 50-50 fair, and why should the system be fully linked, and why should the PA have to make a full offer that the league accepts? It's called a negotiation. If the league doesn't like something in the PA's offers, it should counter. Instead it runs out of the room telling anyone who will listen that Fehr doesn't represent the players' interests, that he refuses to negotiate, and people believe it.

And you're buying the PA spin because you're ridiculously pro-player. I never used the word 'fair' in my last post, all I said was that neither side has compromised at all and neither has, they only both claim they have.

The players haven't moved off de-linkage - which is a waste of time anyway since the last lockout was entirely about cost certainty, the owners aren't giving up linkage. The owners haven't moved off contract lengths. Neither side has really moved on HRR although the players' 50-50 non-linked offer was clever PR and looked a lot better than it really was, especially with the guarantee that the players would never lose money.

The owners demonize Fehr and the players destroy Bettman. Both sides are guilty of the same tactics and yet you only pound on one. It's just like politics really, where each side only sees the other's flaws and not that their side does the same thing.

[Triumph]

Isn't that how negotiations started? League gave offer, players refused it, say NHL is being unfair, no nhlpa counter.

Then we wait a couple weeks and owners make another offer since players refuse. Nhlpa comes back with 3 bare bones offers, addressing almost nothing the owners had touched on, and the players hadn't even taken the time to run numbers on.

Sounds like you've bought the nhlpa "drivel" that they're working hard against an unfair partner.

The NHLPA is in the difficult position of negotiating against the league, knowing full well that any concession they make in any offer will be included, or increased, in subsequent league offers. I agree that the 3 offers thing was not a great move, but the NHLPA knows the NHL's position from watching the NBA and the NFL go through this last year, so they understand how it works - the league gives very little in concessions and tries to wait the players out, while accusing them of not negotiating and risking the season. NBA and NFL players won some concessions but not really any significant financial ones. The NHLPA has not been forthright about full offers because it understands that the NHL only wants a deal in early November if it's completely on their terms. And that, on its face, is ridiculous.

The NHL has to pretend it doesn't have all the power to get a deal done.

4978: Just stop posting if you think both sides haven't moved on HRR. They've moved a ton, although much of the league's movement has been a fiction based off their absurd first offer.

Edited by Triumph, 26 November 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[NJDevs4978]

4978: Just stop posting if you think both sides haven't moved on HRR. They've moved a ton, although much of the league's movement has been a fiction based off their absurd first offer.

The 57-43 first offer and the owners walking out of last week's meeting inside an hour were their two biggest PR blunders by far. Even they knew 57-43 the other way was a fantasy. 50-50 wasn't so much a compromise on their part as it was coming back to reality (not to mention their best PR move to date), at least on that issue...though it's still a net gain for them so I wouldn't characterize it as them moving. But the players haven't come anywhere near a real 50-50 yet either. On paper they've moved a little, but whether they've actually moved is debatable because of the whole de-linked thing.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 26 November 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[Triumph]

The 57-43 first offer and the owners walking out of last week's meeting inside an hour were their two biggest PR blunders by far. Even they knew 57-43 the other way was a fantasy. 50-50 wasn't so much a compromise on their part as it was coming back to reality, at least on that issue...though it's still a net gain for them so I wouldn't characterize it as them moving. But the players haven't come anywhere near a real 50-50 yet either. On paper they've moved a little, but whether they've actually moved is debatable because of the whole de-linked thing.

You're just not reading the right people, it seems.

http://www.theglobea...article5530468/

Yes, of course that won't be a final offer, but the NHL could negotiate off it. Now they're just hiring mediators so they can have sham negotiations for the next week until the December 5th BoG meeting - that's when the temperature will really be taken and we'll see if the NHL wants a season. I still think they do, but they're doing a good job of pretending they don't care either way.

[Zubie#8]

Apparently the mediator assigned to this case was removed due to problems with his twitter. Cant make this stuff up,

[redruM]

if its nonbinding then its useless, I'm so sick of this crap!!

I want my frickin HOCKEY!!

[devlman]

NOW they try mediation? November 27, after countless games have been cancelled. Brilliant.

[Daniel]

if its nonbinding then its useless, I'm so sick of this crap!!

I want my frickin HOCKEY!!

It may prove not to result in a deal, but mediation can be helpful so long as both sides are interested in an agreement, rather than making a statement. It proved helpful ending the MLB strike.

Having an objective voice in the room is a positive step.

[chrisg19]

Gotta give the players credit for sticking together here. The third and fourth line guys, you know the guys who will only play the NHL average of 3 seasons. They show tremendous character to stick together with the Ovechkins, and Crosbys of the league. Sacrificing probably 1/3 of what they will ever make for a cause they won't benefit from. Heard an interesting stat on NHL Radio. 240 members of the 2004-05 players association never played another NHL game when the NHL finally returned. That is nearly 1/3 of the Players Association. Solidarity amongst the guys who are about to suffer that same fate is mind boggling.

[Triumph]

Gotta give the players credit for sticking together here. The third and fourth line guys, you know the guys who will only play the NHL average of 3 seasons. They show tremendous character to stick together with the Ovechkins, and Crosbys of the league. Sacrificing probably 1/3 of what they will ever make for a cause they won't benefit from. Heard an interesting stat on NHL Radio. 240 members of the 2004-05 players association never played another NHL game when the NHL finally returned. That is nearly 1/3 of the Players Association. Solidarity amongst the guys who are about to suffer that same fate is mind boggling.

This stat drives me up a wall, and Bruce McCurdy did a great job explaining why: http://blogs.edmonto...of-nhl-careers/

Guys at the bottom of the totem pole understand their place - obviously someone like Stephen Gionta should be livid about this lockout. But there aren't enough of them and the agreement's not for them and they know that. Making noise about the lockout now is a good way to get teammates angry at you, and guys at the fringes realize that that stuff counts when it comes to making the roster.

Edited by Triumph, 27 November 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[NJDevs4978]

A bunch of those 240 guys probably would have retired or been replaced anyway.

Tri's right about Gionta, especially since he had a one-year deal this year that converts back to two-way next year.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 27 November 2012 - 12:50 PM.

[DJ Eco]

Gotta give the players credit for sticking together here. The third and fourth line guys, you know the guys who will only play the NHL average of 3 seasons. They show tremendous character to stick together with the Ovechkins, and Crosbys of the league. Sacrificing probably 1/3 of what they will ever make for a cause they won't benefit from. Heard an interesting stat on NHL Radio. 240 members of the 2004-05 players association never played another NHL game when the NHL finally returned. That is nearly 1/3 of the Players Association. Solidarity amongst the guys who are about to suffer that same fate is mind boggling.

Agreed! Which is why I was telling people to go easy on Krys Barch for his (probably drunken) rant last month.

[njd3b1ink]

@TSNBobMcKenzie: Sounds as if there's no traction or progress coming out of the mediation session. Official statements to follow, no doubt.

@TGfireandice: RT @Real_ESPNLeBrun: Source also says no more meetings with mediators planned

Edited by njd3b1ink, 29 November 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[njd3b1ink]

This is looking pretty bad for the possibility of a half season. I think january 1st is really the latest they can start. To get that start up they need to get this done in the next 2-3 weeks. Doesnt look good. Ive been saying the whole lockout that it will be a half season and there is no way the owners would lose another full season, but im starting to think that might happen.

[NJDevs4978]

lol even I didn't think it would take all of 'two' days with the mediators for this thing to blow up.

Still think this ain't coming down to the last minute Tri? At this point nothing concrete is going to happen until the BOG meeting next week where a drop-dead date will likely be floated.

This is looking pretty bad for the possibility of a half season. I think january 1st is really the latest they can start. To get that start up they need to get this done in the next 2-3 weeks. Doesnt look good. Ive been saying the whole lockout that it will be a half season and there is no way the owners would lose another full season, but im starting to think that might happen.

They were willing to start in mid-February last time and they did start in mid-January in '95 so I don't think the drop-dead date will be that early, though it likely won't be as late as mid-February this time either.

[Zubie#8]

Pierre LeBrun @Real_ESPNLeBrun
Should be getting statements from both sides within the hour. This is easily the low point of the lockout.

Edited by Zubie#8, 29 November 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[NJDevs4978]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Daly's statement confirms no progress made, mediation over. ``We are disappointed that the mediation process was not successful,'' Daly said


Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
Daly: “After spending several hours with both sides over two days, the presiding mediators concluded that the parties remained far apart.."

lol...the No Hockey League is still at it.

[DevilMinder]

So...Oh forget it, there is no more jokes to be made. I guess the season is done for in about two weeks.

Edited by DevilMinder, 29 November 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[DevsMan84]

To say this sucks is an understatement and no real surprise.

Both sides can eat it at this point. With every passing day I am learning that I can live without NHL hockey....again.