1718 replies to this topic

[Satans Hockey]

True, but it was the way players were able to still get paid under the old cba. The owners just want to fvck the players.

It's a stretch to call it being fvcked by the owners. The majority of the players are so out of touch with reality that they don't even have a clue what the average family has to go through to just get by anymore. The owners and players are a joke and the hell to them both if this garbage keeps getting dragged out.

[NJDevs4978]

I don't know why you continue to believe what journalists are reporting. Bettman had a huge win sewn up here - the question is, how much does he want this win? Fehr's going to see how much he wanted it. Because right now what's leaked out about the deal the players were going to sign, everything about it sucks relative to the last CBA. Why should the union take that deal other than 'we want/need to play?'

So when Fehr's constantly late for meetings, doesn't propose real offers and finds a million ways to stall that's constructive to getting a deal done?

The NHL wants a deal now, the players themselves thought all along the best deal would come in December...well now it's December and they're still stalling, to what exactly? The deal's not getting any better, the only things that have changed since the October proposal are leaving the FA age and arbitration untouched and offering more make whole money over a longer term.

The only way this deal gets better after this weekend is if this goes nuclear into the courts with decertification and whatever else they want to try. It's not getting better in a negotiation. 50/50 is still similar/better than what other major sports get. FA at 27 is the best of the four major sports if I'm not mistaken. Even the contract limits are still better than the NBA (4/5 compared to 5/7) and NFL's non-guaranteed deals. If they want to cry poverty they're only going to make it worse for themselves PR-wise and in the final deal when it's all said and done.

Fehr wants a MLB-like system, the owners want an NBA-like system. The only way Fehr's going to win that battle is in the courts, and that's if the union doesn't off him first.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 06 December 2012 - 05:46 PM.

[Triumph]

It's a stretch to call it being fvcked by the owners. The majority of the players are so out of touch with reality that they don't even have a clue what the average family has to go through to just get by anymore. The owners and players are a joke and the hell to them both if this garbage keeps getting dragged out.

I can assure you that however out of touch the players are, the owners are more so. This has nothing to with what people have to do to get by. It has to do with being fairly compensated for exceedingly rare talents.

So when Fehr's constantly late for meetings, doesn't propose real offers and finds a million ways to stall that's constructive to getting a deal done?

It takes two sides to get a deal done.

The NHL wants a deal now, the players themselves thought all along the best deal would come in December...well now it's December and they're still stalling, to what exactly? The deal's not getting any better, the only things that have changed since the October proposal are leaving the FA age and arbitration untouched and offering more make whole money over a longer term.

Yeah, they only got more money and better terms. Remember in October when people said the deal isn't getting any better? They were wrong. And they'll be wrong again - if the PA continues to stall, they will get a 'better' offer. They will end up with less money, but they will end up with a more equitable offer.

The only way this deal gets better after this weekend is if this goes nuclear into the courts with decertification and whatever else they want to try. It's not getting better in a negotiation. 50/50 is still similar/better than what other major sports get. FA at 27 is the best of the four major sports if I'm not mistaken. Even the contract limits are still better than the NBA (4/5 compared to 5/7) and NFL's non-guaranteed deals. If they want to cry poverty they're only going to make it worse for themselves PR-wise and in the final deal when it's all said and done.

Again, you don't know the issues. HRR is more limiting than revenue calculations in other sports, so right there, NHL players make less. FA at 27 is the best of the four major sports, but part of that has to do with sport structure - MLB and the NFL have almost 0 18 or 19 year olds while the NHL usually has at least 10 or 15 these days, and it goes from there.

Fehr wants a MLB-like system, the owners want an NBA-like system. The only way Fehr's going to win that battle is in the courts, and that's if the union doesn't off him first.

The union hired him for exactly this. It's brinkmanship - if Fehr can squeeze a little more out of the owners here, he's done his job and can go off into the sunset. Bettman would've had a PR win and a $$$ win - if Fehr is being a hardliner like is being suggested by journalists, he's telling Bettman - you can win the PR battle by looking like the good guys while I 'ruin' the deal by actually asking for real concessions, or you can add more incentives to it to actually get us to sign it.

[DJ Eco]

Evidently Bettman is surprised by the popularity of the lockout

http://www.theonion....l-lockou,29921/

FYI, The Onion is a satirical paper meant as a joke

[NJDevs4978]

Yeah, they only got more money and better terms. Remember in October when people said the deal isn't getting any better? They were wrong. And they'll be wrong again - if the PA continues to stall, they will get a 'better' offer. They will end up with less money, but they will end up with a more equitable offer.

The union hired him for exactly this. It's brinkmanship - if Fehr can squeeze a little more out of the owners here, he's done his job and can go off into the sunset. Bettman would've had a PR win and a $$$ win - if Fehr is being a hardliner like is being suggested by journalists, he's telling Bettman - you can win the PR battle by looking like the good guys while I 'ruin' the deal by actually asking for real concessions, or you can add more incentives to it to actually get us to sign it.

Wait a minute, you mocked every concession that had nothing to do with HRR or contract length and now the players won something that has nothing to do with either and is only status quo from the last CBA? If your definition of 'better' is more equitable that's perfectly legitimate (even if we agree to disagree over what's equitable) but financially it's not better at all other than a little more Make Whole money farther down the road that doesn't come close to covering what the players lost in these last three months.

Funny how fairness only applies to the owners when for YEARS the players have been getting ridiculously slanted offers in 'their' favor. Granted because of the owners' stupidity but you act as if this were the '70's with MLB players fighting the reserve clause. Contract limits affect an average of one player, maybe two on every roster and they're only losing so much now because for two decades the system's been ridiculously pro-player, particuarly the '94-04 CBA.

There's no way anyone's getting a 'PR win' out of this, both sides are pathetically clawing for high ground that only exists in Neverneverland.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 06 December 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[Zubie#8]

This.

Damien Cox @DamoSpin
Players have lost $517 million in pay, which now exceeds the $500 m they were looking for in "make whole." The math is getting tougher

[Triumph]

Wait a minute, you mocked every concession that had nothing to do with HRR or contract length and now the players won something that has nothing to do with either and is only status quo from the last CBA? If your definition of 'better' is more equitable that's perfectly legitimate (even if we agree to disagree over what's equitable) but financially it's not better at all other than a little more Make Whole money farther down the road that doesn't come close to covering what the players lost in these last three months.

The owners have lost plenty of money here too, which seems to be passed over. I recognize they are billionaires, but you can't have it both ways - you can't say 'oh, that money doesn't matter to them' - if money doesn't matter that much to them, why are they fighting over so little?

Funny how fairness only applies to the owners when for YEARS the players have been getting ridiculously slanted offers in 'their' favor. Granted because of the owners' stupidity but you act as if this were the '70's with MLB players fighting the reserve clause. Contract limits affect an average of one player, maybe two on every roster and they're only losing so much now because for two decades the system's been ridiculously pro-player, particuarly the '94-04 CBA.

Hire better GMs. NHL's GMs are, as a group, incredibly bad. MLB doesn't seem to have this problem with owners losing tons of money - feels like a lot of teams there make a profit. Strangely there isn't a salary cap there. The owners feel like absentee landlords for their NHL teams - they don't know anything about how to run them, they figure the guy they've hired is good enough, when it turns out he's an idiot. UFA age under the old CBA was 31 goddamn years old, and yet teams lined up for the opportunity to sign players past their prime to enormous contracts.

The owners sign off on every one of those deals, whether explicitly or implicitly. Are you really against two people agreeing to a contract? Apparently so.

There's no way anyone's getting a 'PR win' out of this, both sides are pathetically clawing for high ground that only exists in Neverneverland.

The NHL will get it tonight.

[NJDevs4978]

The owners have lost plenty of money here too, which seems to be passed over. I recognize they are billionaires, but you can't have it both ways - you can't say 'oh, that money doesn't matter to them' - if money doesn't matter that much to them, why are they fighting over so little?

Some owners like NY/Toronto/etc are losing a lot of money by not playing, and some are actually losing less money by not playing than they would be by playing. That's why the system still needs tweaking and why enough owners are dug in the sand to block any deal they don't want.

It would help if they had a comprehensive revenue sharing system like baseball, that's the only reason so many teams are 'profitable' there, then again baseball has weasels like Loria who continually sell off their players and don't compete just so they can make a profit.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 06 December 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[NJDevs4978]

I'm only slightly amused that the players are now complaining Bettman wasn't there for their latest joke of an offer. So he's supposed to take any of your offers seriously when you guys were crying for mediators all day?

Edited by NJDevs4978, 06 December 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[njd3b1ink]

I'm only slightly amused that the players are now complaining Bettman wasn't there for their latest joke of an offer. So he's supposed to take any of your offers seriously when you guys were crying for mediators all day?

does anyone actually know what was offered by the players?

[NJDevs4978]

Fehr's going through it now...surprisingly it isn't the usual fire and brimstone, 'this is how we got here' press conference. The PA did propose contract length of 8 years, among other things. Didn't catch most of it since I joined it mid-stream.

Now they even got off the kick of that poison pill of a five-year CBA offer (they offered eight years with an opt-out after six).

Edited by NJDevs4978, 06 December 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[njd3b1ink]

From what don fehr is saying they have agreements in areas and are apparently close. If thats the case then why did the owners/bettman not attend the meeting. Today has been tremendously confusing to keep track of.

[NJDevs4978]

From what don fehr is saying they have agreements in areas and are apparently close. If thats the case then why did the owners/bettman not attend the meeting. Today has been tremendously confusing to keep track of.

Three hours ago the PA requested mediators, obviously the league got annoyed at one too many stall tactics by Fehr and walked out.

[Triumph]

Oh look, unless Fehr's lying, it's their ridiculous stance on contract lengths and variability (because apparently they can't hire smart enough GMs) that's keeping them apart.

[Colin226]

Wow if we are this close that is so awesome.. Everyone put on your red and black gear for good luck!

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

Three hours ago the PA requested mediators, obviously the league got annoyed at one too many stall tactics by Fehr and walked out.

Really? Fehr is responsible for everything?

NHL just refuses to budge on contract length. Walking out is about sending a hard line. They figure the NHLPA will cave since most players don't have contracts over 5 years, ignoring that the long term "cap circumventing" deals enable teams to offer other players contracts and spend over the cap.

Edited by halfsharkalligatorhalfman, 06 December 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[NJDevs4978]

I'm stunned he actually admitted that contract lengths are on the table. And that the players offered a longer than five-year CBA. Those were supposedly two big obstacles. I still don't trust Fehr not to have put some other poison pill in there that he conveniently left out of the public statement (just like Bettman's 50-50 offer which hosed the players in every other way), and I'm not sure if they agreed on HRR yet when Fehr said they didn't discuss 'transition' yet but overall this was a much better press conference than I feared it would be.

I still want to know why they requested mediators three hours ago if they made this offer now, was internal pressure mounting on the Fehrs enough for this kind of about-face?

Edited by NJDevs4978, 06 December 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[njd3b1ink]

In my opinion contract lengths are one of the biggest problems with the league right now. Teams like the flyers can offer 3-4 lifetime 100+m contracts in one summer. I know the players that were offered said contracts didnt end up there. But the way the system is now a wealthy team can do this several times while a team like the preds were forced into doing it once and most likely cant get any big peices to their team for a long time.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

I'm stunned he actually admitted that contract lengths are on the table. And that the players offered a longer than five-year CBA. Those were supposedly two big obstacles. I still don't trust Fehr not to have put some other poison pill in there that he conveniently left out of the public statement (just like Bettman's 50-50 offer which hosed the players in every other way), and I'm not sure if they agreed on HRR yet when Fehr said they didn't discuss 'transition' yet but overall this was a much better press conference than I feared it would be.

Yeah last time he left out that the NHLPA proposal had insurance against shrinking revenues which is a pretty big deal. There's very likely something in there he's not mentioning.

[NJDevs4978]

Really? Fehr is responsible for everything?

NHL just refuses to budge on contract length. Walking out is about sending a hard line. They figure the NHLPA will cave since most players don't have contracts over 5 years, ignoring that the long term "cap circumventing" deals enable teams to offer other players contracts and spend over the cap.

Would you take an offer seriously if just three hours ago your opposite negotiator said mediators were needed again?