1718 replies to this topic

[NJDevs4978]

It's always the other guy that's greedy.

Basically, which is why the decidedly pro union slant of this board mystifies me as much as the decidedly pro owner slant on HF. Both sides are equally guilty of the same nonsense.

[Triumph]

Both sides are plenty guilty of playing tricks on the other, but only one side is demanding across the board wage cuts when revenues are higher than ever.

[DevsMan84]

Also just because the players may have gotten the shorter end of the stick in the last CBA deal doesn't automatically put them in the right in this deal.

This goes for any CBA negotiation

[NJDevs4978]

Both sides are plenty guilty of playing tricks on the other, but only one side is demanding across the board wage cuts when revenues are higher than ever.

Revenues are different than profits, and how many teams are actually profiting. I don't necessarily believe the owners any more than you do over how many teams are profiting and how many are losing money.

I think actions speak louder than words in this case, if the season does get canceled, the problems are real. If the owners have a bunch of last minute concessions then there aren't.

[Triumph]

I still fail to see the advantage of a 'fake' drop deadline. If it gets proven to be fake then there'll never be any incentive for the PA to negotiate against a deadline again. The only time the owners can provide any real pressure is the 'first' drop dead date, so it better be the last.

Either way, it's a disgusting game of chicken. I hope Bettman does tell them to **** themselves on the 10th if they honestly want to play Russian Roulette.

I didn't see this before, but that's incredibly silly. If you have a fake deadline, what happens is if Fehr's willing to negotiate past it, you toss him a few nickels, get an agreement, and get a 42 game season going. If Fehr wants to play hardball after that you can tell him the season's over with, but the advantage of the fake drop deadline is that maybe you get a deal beforehand that's more favorable than the one you would give afterwards. But the deadline certainly looks fake to anyone who's paying attention.

[Triumph]

Revenues are different than profits, and how many teams are actually profiting. I don't necessarily believe the owners any more than you do over how many teams are profiting and how many are losing money.

Teams spend their money on all kinds of stupid nonsense. Toronto can't spend on players so it has 5 assistant GMs. If the NHL wants to negotiate as a unit, maybe it should consider sharing more revenues such that more teams can be profitable.

I think actions speak louder than words in this case, if the season does get canceled, the problems are real. If the owners have a bunch of last minute concessions then there aren't.

The problems aren't real. Even if they were, most of the owners are billionaires who can afford to lose money for spite, if it came down to that. Plus unless the targets shift, there are no last minute concessions. There's like 8 issues on which they're divided, and the only one that involves actual money is the pension issue.

[mouse]

The thing with Bettman and the owners is that in 2004 they did this and got EVERYTHING they wanted and all the players got was that extra 7% of 50/50. The system the NHL built was supposed to bring stability and bla bla bla bla.

This is one of many reasons I have a bigger problem with Bettman. Also, the league under his tenure has had more work stoppages than any other league in the same time period, and while I'm not researching this, I'm guessing any other major American league ever. Much as the players are greedy, they're no more greedy than any other pro athletes, yet the NHL is the only league to miss a full season, the only league to miss they playoffs since '94, and has missed games three times since '94, more times than the NHL, NBA, and MLB combined (same amount if you include the '94 baseball strike).

Finally, and this issue applies to all commisioners, the commisioner at one point was appointed by the owners, but worked for the game. That means guys like Roselle and Stern (even though they were a$$holes sometimes) had intelligent plans for the long term strength of their sports, and were willing to stand up to owners who were too shortsighted or greedy to make mature decisions. Those days are over, even Stern is more and more the owners' lap dog, and it's incredibly frustrating. Bettman is also the worse, because he ignores many of his own owners, and seems to spend more effort on working the press (badly) than he does solving the league's problems. The biggest issue in the league is revenue distribution, yet Bettman's afraid to stand up to Jacobs, so he attacks the players, who are inevitably greedy, which results in missed games.

[DevsMan84]

This is one of many reasons I have a bigger problem with Bettman. Also, the league under his tenure has had more work stoppages than any other league in the same time period, and while I'm not researching this, I'm guessing any other major American league ever. Much as the players are greedy, they're no more greedy than any other pro athletes, yet the NHL is the only league to miss a full season, the only league to miss they playoffs since '94, and has missed games three times since '94, more times than the NHL, NBA, and MLB combined (same amount if you include the '94 baseball strike).

Finally, and this issue applies to all commisioners, the commisioner at one point was appointed by the owners, but worked for the game. That means guys like Roselle and Stern (even though they were a$$holes sometimes) had intelligent plans for the long term strength of their sports, and were willing to stand up to owners who were too shortsighted or greedy to make mature decisions. Those days are over, even Stern is more and more the owners' lap dog, and it's incredibly frustrating. Bettman is also the worse, because he ignores many of his own owners, and seems to spend more effort on working the press (badly) than he does solving the league's problems. The biggest issue in the league is revenue distribution, yet Bettman's afraid to stand up to Jacobs, so he attacks the players, who are inevitably greedy, which results in missed games.

I may be wrong, but I think the MLB had quite a number of work stoppages in the 70's and 80's.

[roomtemp]

I may be wrong, but I think the MLB had quite a number of work stoppages in the 70's and 80's.

Looking it up there were 8 only 3 of those were strikes that caused missed games. 2 that missed a good amount of games too in 81 and of course 94

[SterioDesign]

This is one of many reasons I have a bigger problem with Bettman. Also, the league under his tenure has had more work stoppages than any other league in the same time period, and while I'm not researching this, I'm guessing any other major American league ever. Much as the players are greedy, they're no more greedy than any other pro athletes, yet the NHL is the only league to miss a full season, the only league to miss they playoffs since '94, and has missed games three times since '94, more times than the NHL, NBA, and MLB combined (same amount if you include the '94 baseball strike).

Finally, and this issue applies to all commisioners, the commisioner at one point was appointed by the owners, but worked for the game. That means guys like Roselle and Stern (even though they were a$$holes sometimes) had intelligent plans for the long term strength of their sports, and were willing to stand up to owners who were too shortsighted or greedy to make mature decisions. Those days are over, even Stern is more and more the owners' lap dog, and it's incredibly frustrating. Bettman is also the worse, because he ignores many of his own owners, and seems to spend more effort on working the press (badly) than he does solving the league's problems. The biggest issue in the league is revenue distribution, yet Bettman's afraid to stand up to Jacobs, so he attacks the players, who are inevitably greedy, which results in missed games.

Thats true and that's because Bettman is "strictly" business and not for the game. We all know that

Edited by SterioDesign, 04 January 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[DevilMinder]

LOL, this is too much now.

@SpectorsHockey
Gary Bettman angers players, slows talks by saying some GMs would like to 'dismantle' teams http://nyp.st/WixAMk via @nypost

[Triumph]

In other words, some GMs, knowing they're in a win-now business and that their owner is a fool, signed a bunch of contracts to attempt that, didn't do so, and are now crying poor. Hahaha. I wish this article were by someone less bought off than Brooks so I could believe everything in it.

[Daniel]

This is one of many reasons I have a bigger problem with Bettman. Also, the league under his tenure has had more work stoppages than any other league in the same time period, and while I'm not researching this, I'm guessing any other major American league ever. Much as the players are greedy, they're no more greedy than any other pro athletes, yet the NHL is the only league to miss a full season, the only league to miss they playoffs since '94, and has missed games three times since '94, more times than the NHL, NBA, and MLB combined (same amount if you include the '94 baseball strike).

Finally, and this issue applies to all commisioners, the commisioner at one point was appointed by the owners, but worked for the game. That means guys like Roselle and Stern (even though they were a$$holes sometimes) had intelligent plans for the long term strength of their sports, and were willing to stand up to owners who were too shortsighted or greedy to make mature decisions. Those days are over, even Stern is more and more the owners' lap dog, and it's incredibly frustrating. Bettman is also the worse, because he ignores many of his own owners, and seems to spend more effort on working the press (badly) than he does solving the league's problems. The biggest issue in the league is revenue distribution, yet Bettman's afraid to stand up to Jacobs, so he attacks the players, who are inevitably greedy, which results in missed games.

The reason why sports commissioners at some point "worked for the game" was because there were no players' unions and no free agency. In baseball at least, the owners were basically able to agree among themselves that a player was forever bound to one team so long as the owner wanted him around. There were no labor issues for the commissioner to deal with. When players' unions came around, the owners needed to look to someone to negotiate CBAs on their behalf. For whatever reason, they chose their commissioners. In the case of the NHL, if it weren't Bettman negotiating the business terms, it would be some kind of consultant and/or fancy law firm. The end result would be the same.

It's a cliche, but professional sports is a business, plain and simple. These negotiations are as mundane as labor dispute between Verizon and labor unions. A union worker who works for Verizon wants as much as he can possibly get, while Verizon wants as much as it can get. That a cable technician makes a lot less money than a professional athlete is neither here nor there.

[DaneykoIsGod]

Tom Gulitti @TGfireandice 2m

Players ask for compliance buyouts. NHL agrees to 2. PA apparently upset now GMs would use buyouts to shed contracts they regret.Makes sense

Edited by DaneykoIsGod, 04 January 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[NJDevs4978]

I didn't see this before, but that's incredibly silly. If you have a fake deadline, what happens is if Fehr's willing to negotiate past it, you toss him a few nickels, get an agreement, and get a 42 game season going. If Fehr wants to play hardball after that you can tell him the season's over with, but the advantage of the fake drop deadline is that maybe you get a deal beforehand that's more favorable than the one you would give afterwards. But the deadline certainly looks fake to anyone who's paying attention.

All of which they should, in theory be doing this week. Of course everything has to be protracted with the NHL and NHLPA.

Looks fake to who, Fehr and the PA hard liners? I haven't seen it mentioned in the media yet other than tweets intimating the PA is skeptical of the drop dead date. Yeah and Fehr also told MLB players the World Series would never be canceled, how did that work out?

[NJDevs4978]

Tom Gulitti @TGfireandice 2m

Players ask for compliance buyouts. NHL agrees to 2. PA apparently upset now GMs would use buyouts to shed contracts they regret.Makes sense

lol TG. Of course it makes perfect (non)sense when you're considering who we're talking about here.

If that conversation ever did happen and Bettman was being truthful (lol) I'd bet money on that loon Holmgren being one. He loves to change over his team as is and has a couple of horrendous deals.

[SterioDesign]

Tom Gulitti @TGfireandice 2m

Players ask for compliance buyouts. NHL agrees to 2. PA apparently upset now GMs would use buyouts to shed contracts they regret.Makes sense

lol

[Devils731]

adater ‏@adater
(1/2)On "bait and switch" charges:league says HRR language given to players on Dec. 27, and players acknowledged it with follow-up questions


adater ‏@adater
(2/2) on 12-29 and 1-1, rendering bait-and-switch charges, to league, as bogus attempt at redo on disclaimer vote

[newarkdev01]

adater ‏@adater
(1/2)On "bait and switch" charges:league says HRR language given to players on Dec. 27, and players acknowledged it with follow-up questions


adater ‏@adater
(2/2) on 12-29 and 1-1, rendering bait-and-switch charges, to league, as bogus attempt at redo on disclaimer vote

This stuff just gets crazier. I honestly everyone needs to get off the testosterone pills and look at this at what it is, a business. Of course some GMs and owners would love to blow up their teams or get a redo, thats how the sports business works. The reality is still the same, to throw away a half year of revenue for either side over egos or a small difference in CAP or escrow or pensions is just plain stupidity.

[Brick Pig]

It's a cliche, but professional sports is a business, plain and simple. These negotiations are as mundane as labor dispute between Verizon and labor unions. A union worker who works for Verizon wants as much as he can possibly get, while Verizon wants as much as it can get. That a cable technician makes a lot less money than a professional athlete is neither here nor there.

This is true if you own or work for the business in question, but from the perspective of the customer there is a difference: When Verizon workers go on strike, my phone still works. When the NHL is locked out, I don't see my team play.

I don't deny that it's a business, and I completely understand that both sides want the best deal they can get for themselves. But when virtually your entire business model is based on getting fans' butts in seats (either in the arena or in front of their TVs), then you need to find a way to get a product in front of those fans in a timely fashion.