Jump to content

Photo

2013 Yankees Season


  • Please log in to reply
220 replies to this topic

#101 thefiestygoat

thefiestygoat

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,190 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:25 AM

True George could be the Yankees worst enemy at times and it's amazing how he nearly destroyed what ended up being something very special. But I'll say this - His heart was always in the right place - Win. Nothing else matters.

 

Unfortunately his son Hal cares more about marketing and revenue $$$$ than putting a winning team on the field. Then Hal has the nerve to lie to us as if we are dumb. It's offensive.


  • 0

RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award


#102 Daniel

Daniel

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,599 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:58 AM

True George could be the Yankees worst enemy at times and it's amazing how he nearly destroyed what ended up being something very special. But I'll say this - His heart was always in the right place - Win. Nothing else matters.

 

Unfortunately his son Hal cares more about marketing and revenue $$$$ than putting a winning team on the field. Then Hal has the nerve to lie to us as if we are dumb. It's offensive.

 

I think you're being unfair to Hal and the rest.  He definitely pulled out the check book for Texeira, Arod, and Sabathia, all guys that were instrumental in winning the World Series.  Yeah, there's the $189 number next year, but the penalty for not being in compliance next year is enormous, to the point that even George might have been concerned.  And I don't think George would have wanted to pull out the wallet for Darvish, consdiering his experience with Irabu.  On the other hand, George may very well have acted on impulse over this past offseason and dropped a ton of money on Josh Hamilton.  We've seen how far spending like George has gotten the Angels. 

 

The Yankees' big problem is the lack of anything that resembles an adequate farm system. I don't really blame anyone for that.  Drafting and prospect evaluation in baseball is 90 percent luck.  And eventually, you can't keep signing the big free agents, even if you don't really have a budget.  IF you want Mark Texeira, you have to sign him long term, which means you can't get Prince Fielder. 

 

It's largely the lack of any exciting young players that has kept me from caring.  I'm at the point that I would rather watch a Tuesday night matchup between the Devils and the Panthers, as opposed to a hypothetical World Series game 7 between the Yankees and Dodgers. 

 

EDIT:  I'll also add that the presence of Sterling makes listening to a game on the radio a non-starter if I have anything to say about it.  That the Yankees manageement apparently loves this guy shows absolutely zero respect to the fanbase, much more than any player personnel decision does.


Edited by Daniel, 27 September 2013 - 12:05 PM.

  • 0
Posted Image
I collect spores, molds and fungus.
Hello fellow American. This you should vote me. I leave power. Good. Thank you, thank you. If you vote me, I'm hot. What? Taxes, they'll be lower... son. The Democratic vote is the right thing to do Philadelphia, so do.
How do you spot risk? How do you avoid risk? And what makes it so risky?

#103 Colorado Rockies 1976

Colorado Rockies 1976

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,230 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:10 PM

True George could be the Yankees worst enemy at times and it's amazing how he nearly destroyed what ended up being something very special. But I'll say this - His heart was always in the right place - Win. Nothing else matters.

 

Unfortunately his son Hal cares more about marketing and revenue $$$$ than putting a winning team on the field. Then Hal has the nerve to lie to us as if we are dumb. It's offensive.

 

George was completely out of control in the 80s...he had turned the Yankees into a complete farce, with the constant meddling and "I must win now at all costs!" mantra.  They had several eye-friendly won-lost seasons (George would often try to defend himself by crying, "But we won more games than anyone else in the 80s!"), but only made the playoffs in '80 and '81.  The Yankees finally had that bottoming-out period in 1989-92, where they went 288-359 over four seasons, and articles were being written almost daily about bad George Steinbrenner was for the Yankees, how no one wanted to go to Yankee Stadium anymore...right up until he was suspended.  That announcement was made during a Yankees game (I remember it clearly...Dave LaPoint was on the mound for the Yankees). 

 

The one guy I've always respected above all as a Yankee fan is my uncle...he's now 56 or so, and I remember the late 80s/early 90s being really hard on him.  My uncle has exactly three interests as far as I know:  all forms of pub grub, golf (watching and playing), and the Yankees.  That's it.  The Yankees' losing was making him insane.  But he still kept going to the games (he'd take me with him), still kept watching, still knew everything about every player on the team...he's as hardcore as a fan can get. 

 

Three great memories I have watching baseball with him:

 

1985:  The Blue Jays and Yankees were in a pennant race (Blue Jays would go 99-62 that season, Yanks were 97-64), and some guy was actually holding up a big "Go Blue Jays!" and parading around the lower deck of Yankee Stadium.  I've never seen so much beer, food, trash, and got knows what else thrown at one person...the ushers finally took him away, but not before more crap found its way hurled onto him.  As he was being led towards the concourse, some Yankee fan got a hold of the sign, tore it in half, handed it back to him, and said "Now go fvck yourself wid it!"  Only in NY.  As a 15-year-old who was growing up in bumblefvck at the time, I remember thinking "Wow...damn"

 

1987:  Jays and Yanks again.  Al Leiter had just recently been called up, and was already being compared to Ron Guidry.  He knocked down George Bell and struck him out.  Bell was plenty pissed and hit what seemed like a 600-foot home run off Leiter his next time up.  Jimmy Key started for the Jays (he went 17-6 that season and led the AL in ERA at 2.76), and left in the 6th with the bases loaded (2 runs in 5 innings).  A portly rookie left-hander came in and got a pop-up and a double play (I think) to get out of the jam without giving up a run.  That portly lefty was David Wells.

Box score from the game:   http://www.baseball-...198709200.shtml

Had it wrong, Wells came and got a double play, then a strikeout to end the inning.  Oh well, I was close.  Was only 26 years ago.

 

1996:  My uncle could throw a tantrum and lose it as quickly as anyone.  The Yanks were down 3-0 after the first inning to the Seattle Mariners, and veins were already popping in my uncle's forehead (along with bulging eyes).  I remember saying, "Geez, mellow out, it's still early, you've got Pettitte going."  Well, other than a HR to A-Rod in the 6th, Pettitte didn't give up another hit the rest of the way (only allowed 3 hits total in a CG effort), and the Yankees banged out 16 hits and 10 runs and won handily.  Needless to say my uncle felt kind of stupid for losing it after one half-inning.

Box score from the game:   http://www.baseball-...199608190.shtml


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 27 September 2013 - 12:22 PM.

  • 0
THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#104 nmigliore

nmigliore

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,209 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:24 PM

 

 

The one guy I've always respected above all as a Yankee fan is my uncle...he's now 56 or so, and I remember the late 80s/early 90s being really hard on him.  My uncle has exactly three interests as far as I know:  all forms of pub grub, golf (watching and playing), and the Yankees.  That's it.  The Yankees' losing was making him insane.  But he still kept going to the games (he'd take me with him), still kept watching, still knew everything about every player on the team...he's as hardcore as a fan can get. 

 

 

Sounds a lot like the Mets' version of myself. They haven't been competitive since 2008 yet I still watch every game possible, attend 5-7 games a year, and flip out when anything stupid happens (if not as severely as I did back in the 2007-2008 days, for those that remember my posts here then :P). I can't wait to see the day the team is competitive again. In this case, with your uncle, I bet he was feeling like he was in Heaven with their dynasty run, and the sad/eye-gauging earlier years he put up with only made it that much better.


  • 0
LETS GO METS
LETS GO DEVILS

"Take all that clubhouse [expletive] and all that, throw it out the window. Every writer in the country has been writing about that [expletive] for years. Chemistry don't mean [expletive]."

- Jim Leyland

#105 Colorado Rockies 1976

Colorado Rockies 1976

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,230 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:12 PM

Sounds a lot like the Mets' version of myself. They haven't been competitive since 2008 yet I still watch every game possible, attend 5-7 games a year, and flip out when anything stupid happens (if not as severely as I did back in the 2007-2008 days, for those that remember my posts here then :P). I can't wait to see the day the team is competitive again. In this case, with your uncle, I bet he was feeling like he was in Heaven with their dynasty run, and the sad/eye-gauging earlier years he put up with only made it that much better.

 

You've mellowed out a LOT nmig...you're a much different guy that you were back then. 

 

I think your post sums us both up...we may not always agree on player value and how it should be measured, but we're both equally passionate about our baseball team, no matter how many reasons they try to give us not to be, which I why I like talking baseball with you even if we're disagreeing...if I had a dime for every time my wife said "Why are you watching the Mets AGAIN...don't they suck?"  The Mets and the Wilpons can make me SO mad at times, but I don't think I could ever be beaten down into true apathy...I'll still watch and still keep looking for the silver linings to build on.  My uncle was the one I was happiest for when the Yankees won in '96...I think he almost needed it at that point, lol.   


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 27 September 2013 - 01:45 PM.

  • 0
THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#106 thefiestygoat

thefiestygoat

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,190 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:57 PM

I think you're being unfair to Hal and the rest.  He definitely pulled out the check book for Texeira, Arod, and Sabathia, all guys that were instrumental in winning the World Series.  Yeah, there's the $189 number next year, but the penalty for not being in compliance next year is enormous, to the point that even George might have been concerned.  And I don't think George would have wanted to pull out the wallet for Darvish, consdiering his experience with Irabu.  On the other hand, George may very well have acted on impulse over this past offseason and dropped a ton of money on Josh Hamilton.  We've seen how far spending like George has gotten the Angels. 

 

I don't think I am being unfair at all. Yes, they pulled out the checkbook in 2009 but here is my problem with the $189 austerity plan and other thoughts:

1. This is something they should've prepared for many years in advance. Not just panicked into it. If you are going to do something like this, you have to have a clear plan in place. I would have no problem with getting under the luxury tax if it was down with some thought.

2. Don't tell us putting a "championship caliber" team on the field is the main priority when it isn't.

3a. If you are going to do this, then actually abide by your own rules. Last offseason they said they wouldn't give out multiple year deals to the likes of Russell Martin, Nick Swisher, or Nate Schierholtz - intentionally downgrading the team. Fine. But then don't go and acquire Ichiro, Wells, and Soriano who are on the books thru 2014. It makes no sense at all.

3b. I'm all for not throwing money around. It should be done responsibly which Hal and Levine have no concept of. So Swisher's 4/$56 was too much - ok - but Cashman's first choice was to sign Schierholtz who ended up on the Cubs for 1 year $2.25M. Hal and Levine override him and sign Ichiro for 2 years $13M, despite Schierholtz being the much better player. The Yankees let Martin walk with no replacement for him at all over a few couple million which shouldn't be a huge deal to a team like the Yankees.

3c. Just how bad has Ichiro been at the plate? He's having the 14th worst season by a Yankees RF (min 550 PA) at the plate in team history. Stewart? He's having the 3rd worst season by a Yankees C (min 300 PA) at the plate in team history. The Yankees have gotten the 25th best production at RF and C in MLB this year. Martin and Schierholtz would've been big upgrades that wouldn't have been cumbersome to the 2014 austerity plan.

4. The Yankees seem real hesistant about Japan ever since Igawa (which I admit was one of Cashman's mistakes). They are heavily scouting Masahiro Tanaka but I doubt they win the bid - nor would I mind, just like I didn't mind they didn't get Darvish. Until the bidding process gets revamped, I won't get on them for not spending money on Japanese players. Unfortunately, the new amateur international free agent restictions in the last CBA really hurt what was one of the areas the Yankees usually did well at. They can't even spend that much money there if they want to which is a bit frustrating.

 

5. Forbes (which I know isn't gospel but gives an idea) has the Yankees 2013 revenue at $471M. So it's not like Hal is going poor even after he pays out the necessary expenses.
 

 

The Yankees' big problem is the lack of anything that resembles an adequate farm system. I don't really blame anyone for that.  Drafting and prospect evaluation in baseball is 90 percent luck.  And eventually, you can't keep signing the big free agents, even if you don't really have a budget.  IF you want Mark Texeira, you have to sign him long term, which means you can't get Prince Fielder. 

 

EDIT:  I'll also add that the presence of Sterling makes listening to a game on the radio a non-starter if I have anything to say about it.  That the Yankees manageement apparently loves this guy shows absolutely zero respect to the fanbase, much more than any player personnel decision does.

I agree the dismal farm system is a huge problem. It has been for some time and it's not necessarily drafting which I agree involves a lot of luck. One thing that concerns me is the pitching development. Sure the Yankees have a lot of success with college arms (as they should) but they haven't down so well with high school arms. Whether it's keeping guys healthy or having the right coaches or some combo, I don't know. But after a decade plus of not having much success, I think it's time for the whole minor league system on the executive and coaching level to be re-evaluated. At some point Damon Oppenheimer and Mark Newman need to be analyzed in comparison to executives in other organizations. I'm not trying to claim I know the answers, but I think if you go year by year and look at everything, it's clear something needs to change.

 

Fortunately, while we may be stuck with Sterling with the move to WFAN, it seems like there is a *chance* Suzyn will be replaced. I hope it happens.


  • 0

RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award


#107 thefiestygoat

thefiestygoat

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,190 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:13 PM

CR76: I may have born in 1988 but I was made aware from a young age what a nutcase George could be. I'm not overlooking his faults but in my opinion, I believe that in his heart, he always felt like he was trying to help the team win - even when he unknowingly stood in the way of that. At least he wanted to win. Hal is clearly a business man and not a fan of the team.

Those are cool memories you have with your uncle. The first Jays fan one reminds me of my last time at the old stadium, RF bleachers by the black seats. Two Jays fans walk in and practically all hell broke loose until security came and got them out of there. It's a shame the new stadium has no character or atmosphere now for the most part.

 

Below rant isn't aimed at anyone here, just fans in general all over the country.

 

I know you weren't necessarily trying to imply this (just saying this in general) but I feel like Yankees fans my age get unfairly stereotyped. Yes we have been extremely fortunate to see this much success in a short time and we are grateful and recognize that. But it's almost like you automatically get this reaction like "Oh, you're a twenty-something Yankees fan? You're spoiled and entitled. You're not a real fan." It gets frustrating. I watch almost every game of the year, spend what I can to get to games, follow the entire farm system box scores every night. Yet to the majority of baseball fans, I'm not a "real" fan just because I haven't seen an extended run of bad seasons.

 

I'm not saying all twenty-something Yankees fans are die-hards, the Yankees fanbase has a ton of bandwagoners, but there are those of us who are fanatical but automatically get lumped in as being lesser fans.


Edited by thefiestygoat, 27 September 2013 - 04:18 PM.

  • 0

RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award


#108 Colorado Rockies 1976

Colorado Rockies 1976

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,230 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:20 PM

feisty, re:  Steinbrenner, it got to the point where just about every Yankee fan couldn't take him anymore just before his temporary exile...he wasn't seen as some lovable "I just wanna win" swell guy.  When his suspension was announced during the game, the fans in attendance greeted the news with rousing cheers.  His suspension was the best thing for both him AND the Yankees.  The Yankees were able to hang onto their prospects for a change, and when Steinbrenner came back, he was a calmer, more reasonable version of himself. 

 

You, like other Yankee fans around your age, have clearly been fortunate...making the playoffs year after year after year like the Yankees have is a very hard thing to pull off in MLB.  You've basically known nothing but success for your entire baseball existence, and you root for a franchise that not only seems to have more resources than almost everyone else, they actually USE them to try to put the very best product on the field.  Obviously, for any franchise, the party doesn't go on forever.  I'm not going to claim, as a Mets fan, that I have the market cornered on suffering...there always fans who have it worse.  The Pirates just ended a streak of 20 straight losing seasons.  The Cubs are, well, the Cubs, though their fans seem to like the lovable loser thing that goes with being a Cubs fan.

 

I think where some of the younger Yankee fans rub other fans the wrong way is when they start using words like "suffering" when their team actually didn't make the playoffs for one season...or when they bitch about having "only $189 million" to spend on players.  Such fans can't help when they were born, and fans in your age bracket have known nothing but winning and spending...I can only imagine what's like for a Pirate fan around the same age, who, until this season, has known nothing but futility and penny-pinching.  Of course, not all younger Yankee fans are bandwagoners by default (and I'm not implying that you are), and teams that win as much as the Yankees have for as long as they have will attract their share of fair-weather fans, in all age brackets.  And a lot of those guys (and females...at the risk of sounding sexist, they can be the worst offenders) can barely name half the Yankee roster, but claim to be die-hards, and they can be annoying as hell.     


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 27 September 2013 - 06:23 PM.

  • 0
THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#109 Daniel

Daniel

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,599 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 07:31 PM

feisty, re: Steinbrenner, it got to the point where just about every Yankee fan couldn't take him anymore just before his temporary exile...he wasn't seen as some lovable "I just wanna win" swell guy. When his suspension was announced during the game, the fans in attendance greeted the news with rousing cheers. His suspension was the best thing for both him AND the Yankees. The Yankees were able to hang onto their prospects for a change, and when Steinbrenner came back, he was a calmer, more reasonable version of himself.

You, like other Yankee fans around your age, have clearly been fortunate...making the playoffs year after year after year like the Yankees have is a very hard thing to pull off in MLB. You've basically known nothing but success for your entire baseball existence, and you root for a franchise that not only seems to have more resources than almost everyone else, they actually USE them to try to put the very best product on the field. Obviously, for any franchise, the party doesn't go on forever. I'm not going to claim, as a Mets fan, that I have the market cornered on suffering...there always fans who have it worse. The Pirates just ended a streak of 20 straight losing seasons. The Cubs are, well, the Cubs, though their fans seem to like the lovable loser thing that goes with being a Cubs fan.

I think where some of the younger Yankee fans rub other fans the wrong way is when they start using words like "suffering" when their team actually didn't make the playoffs for one season...or when they bitch about having "only $189 million" to spend on players. Such fans can't help when they were born, and fans in your age bracket have known nothing but winning and spending...I can only imagine what's like for a Pirate fan around the same age, who, until this season, has known nothing but futility and penny-pinching. Of course, not all younger Yankee fans are bandwagoners by default (and I'm not implying that you are), and teams that win as much as the Yankees have for as long as they have will attract their share of fair-weather fans, in all age brackets. And a lot of those guys (and females...at the risk of sounding sexist, they can be the worst offenders) can barely name half the Yankee roster, but claim to be die-hards, and they can be annoying as hell.


I remember street vendors selling "George must go" t-shirts outside the stadium. Then there was Sparky Lyle's book, "The Year I Owned The Yankees", which opens with security dragging George out of the stadium kicking and screaming.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
  • 0
Posted Image
I collect spores, molds and fungus.
Hello fellow American. This you should vote me. I leave power. Good. Thank you, thank you. If you vote me, I'm hot. What? Taxes, they'll be lower... son. The Democratic vote is the right thing to do Philadelphia, so do.
How do you spot risk? How do you avoid risk? And what makes it so risky?

#110 thefiestygoat

thefiestygoat

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,190 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 12:26 PM

Trust me, I've heard all about Steinbrenner from back in the day from older fans. I'm not trying to say he was loved or anything but I think in his rich boy, egotistical soul, he cared about the team just as much as he did making money and fueling his ego. Hal's very intelligent, but he is a businessman and I don't get the impression he is much of a fan.

My problem has nothing to do with "They are only spending $189M!" and I hope it isn't coming across like that. It has to do with they never came up with a plan to get there. Levine should have let A-Rod go in 2007 then if they wanted this plan in place in 2014. Don't re-sign CC when he opted out in 2011 and go with a shorter term/less money option. I'm not complaining about spending or lack thereof - I'm complaining about a serious lack of direction.

I'm all for spending more responsibly. Hell, let Cano walk since it's not like they have pieces to put around him before he really hits his decline. I'm all for a complete rebuild and having losing seasons if it takes that.  I just want to know there is a plan. If they want to stay under the luxury tax threshold forever that would be fine with me. But they need to create a plan so they can do that and be competitive more often than not.

I don't think it's necessarily young Yankee fans that "rub people the wrong way." I mean, of course a lot do since we've seen such success but in general being a Yankee fan of any age is usually met with instant hate. It is annoying in a way too since the Yankees pretty much support all these small market teams through revenue sharing and road attendance - and a lot of those owners pocket the money instead of building their franchises yet the Yankees are the bad guys. Plus MLB makes a fortune off the luxury tax which is 95% from the Yankees. Love or hate the Yankees, they do rake in $$$$ for MLB.


  • 0

RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award


#111 Colorado Rockies 1976

Colorado Rockies 1976

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,230 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:44 PM

Really depends on the particular Yankee fan, as far how he's received by others goes.  Yes, a lot of them are brash, cocky, and kind of annoying...and towards Mets fans, they can be patronizing and condescending.  Part of that comes from the Mets organization...they've done a LOT to give Yankee fans fodder.

 

Just out of curiosity, when did Hal first express a desire to start reducing payroll to less-then-luxury tax levels?  He may not have known he was going to go in that direction in 2007. 

 

And yeah, can't say I would want Cano back at $305 million...Cano at anything long-term has disaster written all over it.  He's already going to be 31 years old at the end of this season, but some team will probably make a $250ish million mistake.

 

I couldn't agree more that the owners who don't try to do everything within their financial power to put the best team on the field possible are more offensive than what the Yankees do.  Yeah, sometimes it's frustrating that a perfectly mediocre GM like Brian Cashman can buy his way out of his mistakes where other teams have to live with their disastrous contracts, but the Yankees at least are always trying.  I've been screaming forever that MLB needs a cap with a ceiling AND a floor...some of these owners need to start putting that money into the on-field product instead of their pockets.     


  • 0
THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#112 thefiestygoat

thefiestygoat

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,190 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:45 PM

What an amazing way for Pettitte to end his career, complete game victory in Houston! Really happy for him!


  • 0

RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award


#113 thefiestygoat

thefiestygoat

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,190 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:59 PM

Just out of curiosity, when did Hal first express a desire to start reducing payroll to less-then-luxury tax levels?  He may not have known he was going to go in that direction in 2007. 

 

And yeah, can't say I would want Cano back at $305 million...Cano at anything long-term has disaster written all over it.  He's already going to be 31 years old at the end of this season, but some team will probably make a $250ish million mistake.

I want to say the 2014 plan came out in reports in December 2011 but I can't say that for sure. It's a fair point that he may not have known this would be something they would need to aim for in 2007. I just wish it was something they gave more than 2-3 years to prepare for considering the albatrosses they already had and state of the farm.

I'm so conflicted on Cano. He's a homegrown star and I want him to finish with the Yankees. Plus, he's by far their best offensive player and there aren't any guys in the minors, especially in the upper levels, that can come and make a big impact soon. Part of me wants them to retain him even though they probably won't be contenders for a few years and that would eat up the best years he has left. In a way that would be illogical. The other part of me says to play hardball and really go short in years in an offer and risk losing him to a higher bidder.

So I suppose one part of me says to go as high as 8/$192M and the other part says to go 6/$156 take it or leave it (which I think he would leave it).

 

 

I couldn't agree more that the owners who don't try to do everything within their financial power to put the best team on the field possible are more offensive than what the Yankees do.  Yeah, sometimes it's frustrating that a perfectly mediocre GM like Brian Cashman can buy his way out of his mistakes where other teams have to live with their disastrous contracts, but the Yankees at least are always trying.  I've been screaming forever that MLB needs a cap with a ceiling AND a floor...some of these owners need to start putting that money into the on-field product instead of their pockets.   

I used to be 100% against a salary cap but now I'd be interested in it - especially a floor. I'm not sure of how it would work logistically - if it could even work, but I think it's worth exploring at some point.


  • 0

RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award


#114 NJDevs4978

NJDevs4978

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,009 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:03 PM

Essentially there is a salary cap now, it only affects a handful of teams at most though including the Yankees :P

 

They need an actual floor to deal with the Lorias and Houstons of the world too though.


Edited by NJDevs4978, 28 September 2013 - 10:03 PM.

  • 0
"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#115 thefiestygoat

thefiestygoat

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,190 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:11 PM

I didn't want to make a mega post which is why I am splitting this up. If Cano walks, one guy I'd be interested in trading for is 2B Howie Kendrick from Anaheim. No idea if the Angels would move him but he'd be a nice fit in terms of talent and financial flexibility.

 

2014: $9.35M (Age 30)
2015: $9.5M (Age 31)
2016: FA (Age 32)

Career: .293/.330/.430 .137 ISO .340 BABIP .330 wOBA 106 wRC+ 10.2 BsR 35.9 Off 36.3 Def 20.3 WAR

Last 3 Years
2013: 120 G 504 PA .301/.339/.443 .143 ISO .343 BABIP .339 wOBA 118 wRC+ -4.0 BsR 6.2 Off 3.5 Def 2.8 WAR
2012: 147 G 594 PA .287/.325/.400 .113 ISO .347 BABIP .316 wOBA 102 wRC+ 1.6 BsR 3.1 Off 6.3 Def 3.0 WAR
2011: 140 G 583 PA .285/.338/.464 .179 ISO .338 BABIP .349 wOBA 123 wRC+ 3.1 BsR 18.8 Off 16.0 Def 5.7 WAR

 

-------------------

 

The Yankees have a lot of flexibility to gain or lose depending on if/how long A-Rod is suspended. His luxury tax number is $27.5M but his bonus for 660 HR's (6 away) knocks that figure up to $33.5M. Also, the $189M threshold is really more like $177M since each team’s portion of the league’s player benefits gets factored into it. The benefits are expected to jump from $10.8M to about $12M for 2014.


  • 0

RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award


#116 Colorado Rockies 1976

Colorado Rockies 1976

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,230 posts

Posted 01 October 2013 - 06:37 AM

I want to say the 2014 plan came out in reports in December 2011 but I can't say that for sure. It's a fair point that he may not have known this would be something they would need to aim for in 2007. I just wish it was something they gave more than 2-3 years to prepare for considering the albatrosses they already had and state of the farm.

I'm so conflicted on Cano. He's a homegrown star and I want him to finish with the Yankees. Plus, he's by far their best offensive player and there aren't any guys in the minors, especially in the upper levels, that can come and make a big impact soon. Part of me wants them to retain him even though they probably won't be contenders for a few years and that would eat up the best years he has left. In a way that would be illogical. The other part of me says to play hardball and really go short in years in an offer and risk losing him to a higher bidder.

So I suppose one part of me says to go as high as 8/$192M and the other part says to go 6/$156 take it or leave it (which I think he would leave it).

 

I used to be 100% against a salary cap but now I'd be interested in it - especially a floor. I'm not sure of how it would work logistically - if it could even work, but I think it's worth exploring at some point.

 

Re:  Cano, I think 6/$156 would be the way I would go...put it Robinson's hands...either you really want to be a Yankee or it doesn't mean that much to you...no one should have to be sold on staying with the Yankees.  I understand that, if your team is about to go through a rebuild, you want to give your fans a reason to come to the ballpark, so of course letting Cano go could be costly short-term.  And the Yankees SHOULD probably go through some kind of rebuild, even though it doesn't need to be a full tear-down...you can only stave it off by going the FA route for so long...eventually you have to suck it up and bring young talent from within up through the farm...young talent that hopefully gives you their best years, as opposed to always having to shop for older talent that likely already turned in their best years for someone else.  And I hate when people say "You can't do a rebuild in NY."  That always sells NY fans short...they're not stupid...they're not going to line up to buy (expensive) tickets to watch a team of faded veterans just because some of them used to be big names.  They'll get behind a partial or full rebuild, provided there's a clear plan in place, and the team is honest with them in what they're trying to accomplish. 

 

Problem with a guy like Cano, who's not known for being a hustler, is that if the Yankees do go through two or three seasons of irrelevance while they re-tool, I can see Cano becoming a major malcontent.  He wants to go to the highest bidder, fine...but he could find himself in a Texas Rangers/ARod situation if he does, and then bitch and cry when he's not smart enough to see that the reason his team is limited in what it can do is because he's making an insane amount of coin. 


  • 0
THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#117 Hi, I'm VALUE!

Hi, I'm VALUE!

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,508 posts

Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:53 AM

Just in case anyone you know was planning on watching the Kitten Bowl this year...John Sterling will be doing PBP for it.


  • 0
VOTE CRASHER FOR LADY BYNG 2011!

2008 NJDevs Fantasy Football Champion
Co-winner of the 2008-2009 UnderdogX Signature Award (Internet awards = serious business)


Devils Head Coach = More turnover than the Defense Against the Dark Arts post.


"congratulations, Value. Maximum Value was, apparantly, gaurenteed." -Martysb3tt3r

I will not remove this line from my signature until everyone alive realizes that
THE INTERNETS ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS KTHXBYE~!

#118 thefiestygoat

thefiestygoat

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,190 posts

Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:20 PM

NYDN: Yankees plan to keep scout Damon Oppenheimer despite talk of changes in baseball operations department

 

 

The Yankees are expected to make some changes in the upper levels of their baseball operations department this winter, but it appears that Damon Oppenheimer won't be one of them.

 

According to a source, Oppenheimer will continue in his position as the team's amateur scouting director. The 50-year-old has one year remaining on his contract.

 

Not really happy about this but I suppose they'll give him another chance with 1 year remaining on his deal. I was going through his draft history and outside of a great 2006, Oppenheimer and his scouts haven't done a great job. Sure the draft is a crapshoot but even some of his picks like Bichette Jr. and even more so Culver got immediate WTF! reactions from analyst and other scouts when they happened.

 

Now I suppose the Yankees think the minor league incompetence has more to do with development and not scouting so I expect Mark Newman will get the axe. Don't know why they are waiting so long into the offseason to do it though.

 

I'll be upset if the Yankees don't do something to improve their player scouting and development. It's been pretty bad for awhile now.

 

-----------------

NY Post: Changes coming to MLB bids for Japan players

 

 

The MLB Commissioners Office and Nippon Professional Baseball are closing in on a posting agreement that the sides are optimistic will be in place by Nov. 1, two sources told The Post.

The best pitcher in Japan, Masahiro Tanaka, is expected to be posted this offseason, and the Yankees are likely to be aggressive in trying to win the post.

There had been speculation the system would undergo radical changes, with perhaps even the teams with the three highest posting bids all gaining the rights to negotiate with the players. I have been told there will be alterations in the process, but still only one team will win the post and have exclusive negotiating rights.

It is possible, as a way to give the player more power to chose his destination, he might get to pick a singular team from, say, the top two or three bidders.

 

Besides Tanaka the Yankees have been linked to Korean RP Seung-Hwan Oh who is likely to be posted. He shouldn't command that much in terms of a bid and contract. The Yankees have also been linked to international free agents, Korean SP Suk-Min Yoon (avoid! - not a standout in Korea and shoulder problems) and Cuban SP Odrisamer Despaigne (very little info available).
 


  • 0

RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award


#119 thefiestygoat

thefiestygoat

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,190 posts

Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:19 PM

Yankees are going to offer Cano and Kuroda qualifying offers. For some insane reason, they are "unsure" about offering one to Granderson. You either get him at a decent price ($14.1M) if he accepts, or you get a draft pick back if he signs elsewhere. Seems like a win-win scenario that the Yankees are trying to make into a loss.

 

Yankees re-sign Jeter and in the process give themselves less room to work with under the luxury tax threshold of $189M (really $177M). Jeter's tax number is now $12.81M instead of $10.75M if he was to pick up his option.

 

I have a spreadsheet going with different scenarios and salary projections for free agents. Really what it comes down to is this: If A-Rod isn't suspended the entire year, the Yankees won't be competitive. A-Rod's tax hit of $33.5M pretty much restricts them from signing any free agents outside of Cano.

 

As much as I think MLB overstepped their boundaries with A-Rod and he shouldn't be suspended for the whole year, I hope he does get suspended for that time. Hopefully it happens early enough in December for the Yankees then to go out and plug any of their numerous wholes.


  • 0

RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award


#120 Derek21

Derek21

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,854 posts

Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:33 AM

Of course they should tender an offer to Granderson. Guarantees compensation. I think they held onto Hughes and Joba for a similar reason. Though I wonder who will sign them. Probably NL teams I'd imagine that are good with reclamation projects. The Giants perhaps?

 

Regarding the offseason, I'm more in a wait and see mode. I wouldn't go more than 7 years for Cano. Take it or leave it. I'd imagine he'll re-sign. They should probably be in on McCann. Can't compete without a starting catcher. They'll have to add a starter. Not sure about re-signing Kuroda, who's getting up there and showed signs of wearing down. I want to see what Phelps can do in the rotation. The wildcard is Pineda. It'd be much easier if he was healthy. You never have enough arms.

 

Regarding Steinbrenner, I'm 36 and remember those 80's teams well. Donnie Baseball will always be my favorite. For that 5-year stretch, no one was better. The Hitman did it all. AL MVP. Batting title. Gold Glove. Those were fun teams with Rickey leading off and Willie second, Mattingly third and Winfield cleanup. Pags at the hot corner. Butch Wynegar. Bobby Meacham. Claudell Washington. Even Ken Griffey before he teamed with his son in Seattle. They never had enough pitching. There was Guidry and Rags. That was it. I still remember as a kid seeing Drabek in Spring Training and thinking he was going to be good. Then, they went and traded him to the Pirates for <gulp> Rick Rhoden. I couldn't believe it. Same team traded Jay Buhner to the Mariners for Ken Phelps. They also gave away McGriff. Al Leiter got ruined by Dallas Green letting him throw like 150 pitches. Then, he was dealt to the Jays for Barfield. It took a lot of time before he recovered and became a quality starter. Leiter still tells that story to this day.

 

I wasn't spoiled. I went to games with my Uncle Murray and watched them lose to the Jays. Then the whole Winfield/George/Spira debacle and Mike Witt. It just deteriorated. The only thing that saved the Yankees was baseball suspending The Boss. It allowed the organization to rebuild the farm system. The beginning of the 90's was a train wreck. But I loved going to The Stadium from Staten Island. Hopped the 74 to the Ferry with my buddy Ivan then walked to Bowling Green and took the 4. Tickets were so cheap. Even though they sucked, it was a fun time to go see them. Kevin Maas came up in September 1990 and went off. Classic. Then they traded Roberto Kelly to the Reds for Paul O'Neill and things got rolling. A kid named Bernie Williams took over center field. They signed Spike Owen and eventually Wade Boggs and Jimmy Key. Those additions taught them how to prepare on and off the field. And how to win. Almost forgot Black Jack McDowell. The original flip off pre-Theo Fleury at MSG.

 

What else do I remember? Scott Sanderson. Matt Nokes. Rich Monteleone. Steve Farr. Steve Howe. Pascal Perez. Melido Perez. Wayne Tolleson. Randy Velarde. Mike Blowers. Bob Geren. Danny Tartabull signing that contract in response to the Mets signing Bobby Bonilla. He was supposed to be the savior. I still think to this day they gave him that contract based on a meaningless game the prior year where he hit an opposite field grand slam in the 9th off Farr. My favorite memory is still the Memorial Day game in 1991 when Mel Hall hit a game-winning three-run homer to beat the Red Sox. I think it was off Jeff Reardon. We were in the right field upper deck. And I still recall seeing some angry Red Sock fan get into an argument and drunk. He was tossed out. Haha. I always look back on it and think that was a good omen. Barfield hit a homer and Hall I think had 2 including the walk off. Maas got on when he drilled one off Reardon and then Hall won it. Ivan was so nuts, we waited outside by the press box for Boston to come out so he could heckle Boggs. And our older friend Stu, who was a diehard Mets fan wound up waiting in the garage and he was sitting on his car. :lol: He must've been waiting forever.

 

I wouldn't trade my childhood for anything. Those were great days. Fun times. And sitting behind the plate where some clown named Fuzzy (think Rangers MSG-yep that guy) and a bunch of other bookies kept score of each game. There was this one guy whose signature was to yell, "Heeeeeeeee struck him OUT!," every time someone K'd. Downright hilarious. There was OId-Timer's Day when it was still great to go without it costing an arm and a leg. We went to one versus the Angels and I think another against the A's. Reggie's former teams though Oakland was really it.

 

I love baseball. But I really loved it back then. Then everything changed. The Expos died the strike year basically. Mattingly had to wait one more year for the playoffs and if not for Edgar Martinez and Griffey, Jr. rounding those bases like a sprinter, he wins MVP of that series. I remember being heartbroken watching it at my FDU dorm. But knew it was gonna happen. Nobody was better than Ken Griffey, Jr. What a player. I also remember a kid named Mariano Rivera escaping a bases loaded 0 out jam in that series. May have been the same game before Showalter went to McDowell over his closer Wetteland. Maybe we should've known on Mariano. It was his cousin Ruben who got all the ink including that crazy Daily News Sunday cover that proclaimed The Next Mantle?!?!?!?! Funny how it turned out.

 

After the strike, it all went to sh!t. There's '96 and everything else. Winning the way they did over Atlanta from 0-2 down with Torre telling the classic story of how he told George they'd win all 3 in Atlanta and close it out. Wow. The other years were easier. That '96 team was special. Before they won with Jeter and Pettite and Bern Baby Bern, they had fan fests during the winter. Usually at the Javits Center. We went twice. I remember getting O'Neill in '94 when he won the batting title. I told him to kick butt. He was cool too. Very personable. Funny thing is I had him that same year on my Micro League roster along with Jeff Bagwell. Needless to say, I won the championship. That strike still irks me because I really wanted to see that Yankee team in October and the Expos. Who knows how it would've turned out. Don't forget Matt Williams had 43 homers. Then it ended. Brutal.  

 

One other note. The year Buck took over, the Yankee theme became Twisted Sister's "We're Not Gonna Take It." They used to play it before every home game. And those were the days when they were on MSG with Dewayne Stats with Sterling and Kay on WABC. It was better being a fan.


  • 0

"The greatest trick Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

 

Hasan, Brian and I blog at New York Puck. Devils, Islanders, Rangers and Sabres.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users