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#161 NJDevs4978

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 12:02 PM

It's mind boggling to me that the Yankees can't wait to overpay FA's from every other team but when it comes to their own guys they try to wrestle for every nickel and dime they could get. They give Ellsbury $150-170 million without blinking and act like it's an inconvenience to go over $160 million for Cano.
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#162 Hi, I'm VALUE!

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 12:23 PM

It's mind boggling to me that the Yankees can't wait to overpay FA's from every other team but when it comes to their own guys they try to wrestle for every nickel and dime they could get. They give Ellsbury $150-170 million without blinking and act like it's an inconvenience to go over $160 million for Cano.

 

...except they were going to do 7/175 for Cano. 

 

I completely get why they stayed away from a 10 year deal, but it was clear that Cano wanted to be paid and paid well over being a Yankee.  He got his money, and I wish him all the best and thank him for the years of service to the Yankee franchise.

 

I highly doubt they can be as unlucky in 2014 as they would be in 2013 with regards to man-games lost.  They just need one more pitcher (rumors that Kuroda will be back for 1/16) that will give their rotation some reliability and ability to stay in games..


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#163 thefiestygoat

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 01:16 PM

I wish Cano the best in Seattle, except when he plays the Yankees of course.

I never wanted Cano to leave but I'm glad the Yankees didn't give him 10/240. Even 7/175 which I could get behind would've been a big stretch. Sucks in the short term but gives them a lot more flexibility in the long term.

I loved the McCann signing. The Ellsbury signing to me is questionable depending on what else they do. It only makes sense if they continue to spend to improve the team in the short term. They lost Cano now but if they go out and get Choo, Tanaka, Garza, and maybe bring back a guy like Reynolds, then I'll be happy with it. They just brought back Kuroda which is a huge plus.


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#164 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 11:01 PM

Yanks get Beltran:

 

http://espn.go.com/n...45-million-deal

 

Hope he shows more of a pulse for you guys than he did as a Met.  BB-to-K ratio has been going in the wrong direction lately, but he should be solid as a part-time fielder and DH, who'll get plenty of ABs.


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#165 nmigliore

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 11:03 PM

Many Mets fan will hate to see Beltran in a Yankee uniform, and this will just add fuel to the flames of the morons that never appreciated his Met tenure, but honestly, I rather see him go there than Kansas City. If he went to KC then he probably goes into the HoF as a Royal. At least now the Beltran/Met HoF dream lives on, especially since this deal almost certainly takes Beltran to the end of his career. 

 

I think Yankee fans starving for offense will enjoy Beltran (10th highest wRC+ among qualified OF since 2011, 12th last season), although considering the lack of defensive value and age, it does seem like they paid a premium price to sign him. 


Edited by nmigliore, 06 December 2013 - 11:59 PM.

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#166 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 11:15 PM

You were pretty critical of him as a Met too nmig, until you discovered sabes.  Don't forget that. 

 

Yeah, he's probably going into the Hall (not too many CFs who put up his career power numbers, even if he's not a CF anymore).  He's going to have over 425 HRs and 1500 RBI by the time he's done.  I don't really care if he goes in as a Met...there was never really much of a connection with him, the Mets, and the fans.  There was much more of one with Piazza (after he signed...the fans were tough on him that first year, when he first came over in the trade). 


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 06 December 2013 - 11:16 PM.

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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#167 ghdi

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 11:17 PM

It's mind boggling to me that the Yankees can't wait to overpay FA's from every other team but when it comes to their own guys they try to wrestle for every nickel and dime they could get. They give Ellsbury $150-170 million without blinking and act like it's an inconvenience to go over $160 million for Cano.

 

You're looking at it in the wrong light. 

 

Cano took a deal worth $240 Million total. For $280M total, the Yankees get McCann, Beltran, & Ellsbury. The crux of the Yankees argument was the years. Cano got his ten year deal.


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#168 NJDevs4978

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 12:16 AM

You're looking at it in the wrong light. 

 

Cano took a deal worth $240 Million total. For $280M total, the Yankees get McCann, Beltran, & Ellsbury. The crux of the Yankees argument was the years. Cano got his ten year deal.

 

They could have offered 8-200 before FA and at least shown the same 'effort' they did for other teams' FA's...dare him to take every last dollar.  When the difference is like $70-80 million there's really no choice, you're taking every dollar in that case.  Just like CC by the way when he became a Yankee.  

 

It's not the first time they've done this either...they gave CC/Texiera/Burnett the house no questions asked but when it came to Jeter they wound up in protracted negotiations.  Same with Pettite when he went to Houston.  Same with Bernie Williams before the Red Sox forced the Yankees' hand, or Posada before the Mets forced the Yankees' hand.  They throw Fort Knox at everyone else's guys but turn uber cold-blooded business mode on their own.

 

And Beltran...oy, like Evan Roberts tweeted at least he finally accomplished his lifelong goal of being a Yankee :rolleyes:


Edited by NJDevs4978, 07 December 2013 - 12:30 AM.

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The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#169 '7'

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 01:18 AM

Not sure what to make of Beltran to the Yankees...it will either be a rousing success or epic failure. Nothing in between.

 

37 years old at the start of the season, they will play him a lot at DH which should preserve his body. But he has a ton of MLB miles on him already, and he's always got a nagging thins or a gimpy that. He missed a ton of time in 09 and 10 but has played a lot since then. Still I would worry about the bottom falling out on a player like him. Sometimes you get a guy too late in his career

 

And yes the Yankees will dress him up and arrange the press conference perfectly. And he'll talk about how he's always wanted to be a Yankee, and the tradition and history and all that, and their will be a subtle scripted shot at the Mets. But ultimately his style and attitude will sort of rub the Yankee fan the wrong way just as it did the tri state area Met fan. All cut from the same cloth...I just don't think he will endear himself to Bronx fans.


Edited by '7', 07 December 2013 - 01:20 AM.

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#170 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:08 AM

Beltran's getting well-paid, but the expectations are going to be much lower this time around.  When the Mets signed him, it was to be the cornerstone, the guy to build around, one of the main faces (if not THE face) of the franchise...the fact that he really wanted to be a Yankee in the first place (and his lousy first season as a Met) didn't do much to endear him to Met fans early on...clearly that's not going to be an issue this time around.  With the Yankees, all he's gotta do is be solid and stay healthy, and the fans will be happy...no one is asking him to be what he was in his prime...all he has to do is blend in, which much more conducive to the kind of guy Beltran is. 

 

With the Mets, something was clearly missing that can't be measured in numbers, but nmig and guys who share his viewpoint see nothing beyond sabes when it comes to him, so they think he walked on water as a Met.  Like I've always said, as a Met, he never felt as good as his numbers suggested he was.  In a way I think it's too bad he didn't stay in Houston...I think he could've been a conquering hero there, a guy who would've been revered, and I think his personality was better suited to that kind of market.    

 

The things to worry about for this coming season are a dropping walk rate (which has led to a lower OB%) and uptick in strikeouts (which has led to a worse BB-to-K ratio than we're used to seeing from Beltran). 


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#171 nmigliore

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:01 AM

The biggest issue with Beltran at this point is that he's become a very one-dimensional player, offering no positive value on the bases and being a big negative in the field (since 2011, his -40.4 defensive runs ranks 7th worst among qualified outfielders), which isn't a shock given his chronic knee issues and age.

 

I assume the Yanks will use split his duties between RF and DH, but even if he staves off decline at the plate (Yankee Stadium can help in that regard), it's hard to see him doing much better than +2 WAR, and then who knows what he'll be like in 2015 and 2016. This is why I think Yanks fans who just consider the hitting part of the game and ignore defense/positional value will enjoy him, but the more saber-slanted folks may be down on this deal. 


Edited by nmigliore, 07 December 2013 - 10:25 AM.

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#172 CarterforPresident

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 07:24 PM

As much as I hate Carlos he still pound home runs and RBIs for you guys
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#173 thefiestygoat

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 06:27 AM

I very much preferred Choo over Beltran but I'm just glad that they are spending money again and not punting the season like they did a year ago. Looks like the lost revenue caused Hal to wake up. So while Beltran wasn't my ideal candidate, I can't complain. Those declining BB/K rates scare the hell out of me and years 2 and 3 project pretty grim though. But perhaps he continues to defy the aging curve, we'll see. While his defense is atrocious, at least having Ellsbury and Gardner in the field should help cover some ground. Ellsbury can shade towards right, Gardner towards center to take some of the burden off Beltran. It's nice knowing that the Yankees are going to be fielding legitimate major leaguers in RF and C this year.

Really thrilled they brought Kuroda back again. Hopefully they can take care of him a bit early on in the year so he doesn't end up fading in the 2nd half like the past 2 years (through no fault of his own, he's gone above and beyond imo). I'm blindly optimistic in Sabathia being better this year than he was last year. Still need at least another SP, not sure if they go FA which has a mediocre group this year or trade.

 

I think we can safely throw out the idea of staying under the luxury tax for 2014. By my rough calculations they are around $169,600,000 (pre-bonus tax number) and $176,410,000 (max tax number) with A-Rod. Take away A-Rod and those change to $136,100,000 and $142,910,000 but the roster is still far from full.


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#174 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 10:28 AM

The Yankees ALWAYS spend money.  Yankee fans can't ever complain from that standpoint. 


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#175 Mike Brown

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 11:45 AM

We need to DFA Vernon Wells.  At this point there is no room for him on the roster.  My ideal lineup is this.

 

C: McCann

1B: Teixeira

2B: ???

3B: ???

SS: Jeter

LF: Gardner

CF: Ellsbury

RF: Ichiro and Soriano platoon

DH: Beltran


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#176 thefiestygoat

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 02:36 PM

The Yankees ALWAYS spend money.  Yankee fans can't ever complain from that standpoint. 

Simply not true. How do you explain last offseason then? They let Russell Martin walk over $3M when they had no replacement. They let Swisher walk when they had no replacement. Sounds like being cheap and punting the season to me.

 

2013 Yankees C: .213/.287/.298 .266 wOBA 61 wRC+ (26th overall) 0.9 WAR (23rd)
2013 Yankees RF: .251/.292/.343 .280 wOBA 70 wRC+ (30th!) 0.2 WAR (25th)

 

Yeah, the Yankees usually spend money, but it's clear that Hal was more concerned about the bottom line than winning games last year. That's not debatable. I truly believe that if it wasn't for the lost playoff revenue and sharp decreases in attendance and tv ratings last year, that Hal would still be talking about this luxury tax sh!t and trying to pull wool over our eyes about "fielding a championship caliber team."


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#177 thefiestygoat

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 02:54 PM

We need to DFA Vernon Wells.  At this point there is no room for him on the roster.  My ideal lineup is this.

 

C: McCann

1B: Teixeira

2B: ???

3B: ???

SS: Jeter

LF: Gardner

CF: Ellsbury

RF: Ichiro and Soriano platoon

DH: Beltran

I can't wait for Wells to get DFA'd. Some GM out there will probably want Ichiro based on his name rather than his actual ability. Yankees won't get anything in return but maybe they won't need to eat too much of his $6.5M. Richardson and Almonte provide enough cover in AAA if they need an OF when injuries hit. I think Beltran and Soriano rotate between RF/DH. Yankees seem in on Infante and I hope they can get him for around 3/30ish.

DH: Beltran/Soriano
C: McCann
1B: Teixeira
2B: Infante
SS: Jeter
3B: Reynolds (shouldn't cost too much)
LF: Gardner
CF: Ellsbury
RF: Beltran/Soriano

Bench
C Cervelli
2B/3B Johnson
SS Ryan
OF Almonte/Richardson


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#178 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 03:54 PM

Simply not true. How do you explain last offseason then? They let Russell Martin walk over $3M when they had no replacement. They let Swisher walk when they had no replacement. Sounds like being cheap and punting the season to me.

 

2013 Yankees C: .213/.287/.298 .266 wOBA 61 wRC+ (26th overall) 0.9 WAR (23rd)
2013 Yankees RF: .251/.292/.343 .280 wOBA 70 wRC+ (30th!) 0.2 WAR (25th)

 

Yeah, the Yankees usually spend money, but it's clear that Hal was more concerned about the bottom line than winning games last year. That's not debatable. I truly believe that if it wasn't for the lost playoff revenue and sharp decreases in attendance and tv ratings last year, that Hal would still be talking about this luxury tax sh!t and trying to pull wool over our eyes about "fielding a championship caliber team."

 

Your team still spends a hell of a lot more than most teams though.  Most of the other MLB teams' fans would kill to have a payroll anywhere near what the Yankees spend year in and year out.  CC not having a CC year, Jeter and Texiera missing most of the season, and assorted other injuries had lot more to with the Yankees not winning as much as expected as them "punting the season".  The Yanks can only buy their way out of so much...they use their resources to fill positions where needed (like they did with McCann and Ellsbury), and deserve credit for doing that, but it's heard to buy your way out of so many players (especially pricey ones) being hurt, especially in-season. 


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#179 Daniel

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 04:53 PM

Your team still spends a hell of a lot more than most teams though. Most of the other MLB teams' fans would kill to have a payroll anywhere near what the Yankees spend year in and year out. CC not having a CC year, Jeter and Texiera missing most of the season, and assorted other injuries had lot more to with the Yankees not winning as much as expected as them "punting the season". The Yanks can only buy their way out of so much...they use their resources to fill positions where needed (like they did with McCann and Ellsbury), and deserve credit for doing that, but it's heard to buy your way out of so many players (especially pricey ones) being hurt, especially in-season.


And in the end, their showing was respectable enough. I'm actually somewhat excited to see what the Yanks can do this year.


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#180 thefiestygoat

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 06:18 PM

Your team still spends a hell of a lot more than most teams though.  Most of the other MLB teams' fans would kill to have a payroll anywhere near what the Yankees spend year in and year out.  CC not having a CC year, Jeter and Texiera missing most of the season, and assorted other injuries had lot more to with the Yankees not winning as much as expected as them "punting the season".  The Yanks can only buy their way out of so much...they use their resources to fill positions where needed (like they did with McCann and Ellsbury), and deserve credit for doing that, but it's heard to buy your way out of so many players (especially pricey ones) being hurt, especially in-season. 

I think you are confusing what I'm arguing and we aren't even close to being on the same page. I'm talking about the 2013 offseason, nothing to do with year to year payroll.

My point is that last offseason, Hal went cheap and intentionally put a bad product on the field. That's a fact. There is no disputing this. Probably the 1st time in the Steinbrenner family era where they intentionally made an effort to downgrade the roster.

A team like the Yankees with the resources they have should never nickel and dime and lie to the fanbase the way they did. It's insulting. If they want to go cheap, that's their right, just don't say things like "championship caliber team" is your goal.

With that said, as I mentioned before, and posted an article to back it up, Hal clearly learned from his mistake. He loses a lot more money from rushing into austerity mode and missing the playoffs and losing attendance and TV revenue than he does from getting under the tax threshold.

Staying under the tax threshold is an attainable goal, one that they are moving towards in future years by no longer giving out bad 10 year deals like what Cano got. I have no problem staying under the tax threshold. I support it infact. It's just not something you can rush into. It requires a change in philosophy and I think them letting Cano walk is proof that they are going to start being more responsible from here on out.

Also, it's not even like I wanted the Yankees to go on a huge spending spree last offseason. I just wanted them to re-sign their guys (Swisher and Martin). Letting Martin walk over $3M when you had no replacement is just petty. With Teixeira's health, Swisher would've been great not only for RF but for 1B which along with RF and C they got pretty much no production from at all.

 

Injuries were an excuse. Even if those guys stayed healthy they were still intentionally punting the season by choosing Ichiro/Wells, Stewart/Cervelli, Overbay over Schierholtz, Martin, and Swisher like Cashman wanted. With a roster constructed around old guys, it's not like any of the injuries outside of Granderson's were surprising.

It's all in the past now. I'm happy that they have learned from their mistakes and are re-committed towards putting the best team they can on the field.


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RIP Pat Burns -- RIP Alexander Vasyunov and Lokomotiv Yaroslavl

My New Jersey Devils Prospect Blog
Winner of the 2008 Sergei Brylin Award for Most Underrated Poster
Co-Winner of the 2011 Scott Bertoli Award for Best Minor League Poster, Winner of the 2012 Scott Bertoli Award





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