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#461 Triumph

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:54 PM

Well from our point of view it may be a respectable prospect pool but when you look around to what others teams have coming their way... Its really not much saddly. Of course you never know for sure but our prospect pool is surely not ranked too high compared to a good chunk of the league. Picking late and our first rounders not developping as wed like for so long is starting to hurt.

 

Who cares about prospect pools?  Players drafted from 2008 on by NJ who have a good chance to be respectable NHLers:  Henrique, Loktionov, Josefson, Gelinas, Urbom, Merrill, Larsson, Matteau, Severson, and whoever NJ takes in this draft 9th overall (assuming that's where they end up).  Then you've got a host of other decent-ish guys.  Just because there's an arbitrary definition of prospect that silly sites adhere to and that NJ never ranks at the top, that doesn't concern me at all.  The Wings were constantly ranked near the bottom of prospect sites in the early 2000s, along with the Devils, and both teams haven't really slowed down.  Meanwhile teams like Florida are constantly near the top and never go anywhere.

 

NJ already made it through their roughest patch prospect-wise - between 2001 and 2007, the bona fide NHLers they drafted were:  Zach Parise, Travis Zajac, and Mark Fayne.  Two 1st line players and a solid D, but nothing else (I'll hear arguments for Bergfors, who I think had/has NHL talent but had other issues).  They augmented those with Clarkson, Greene, and Oduya, but it's still not a great haul.  These young players they have now look pretty darn good. 


Edited by Triumph, 29 May 2013 - 12:13 AM.

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#462 Marshall

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 02:34 AM

I knew what Mother Brain was, but had to google the connection to Justin Bailey. 

 

Also, perhaps reading too much into things, but on the Nashville website, their chief scout previews the "Top 5" prospects... Jones, MacKinnon, Barkov, Drouin. most interestingly, Lindholm rather than Nischuskinan.

 

http://predators.nhl...vid=DL|NSH|home

 

 

You'd be surprised yet you wouldn't be if Nashville steered clear of the highly touted Russian prospect.


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#463 Daniel

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:18 AM

Well from our point of view it may be a respectable prospect pool but when you look around to what others teams have coming their way... Its really not much saddly. Of course you never know for sure but our prospect pool is surely not ranked too high compared to a good chunk of the league. Picking late and our first rounders not developping as wed like for so long is starting to hurt.

Who cares about prospect pools? Players drafted from 2008 on by NJ who have a good chance to be respectable NHLers: Henrique, Loktionov, Josefson, Gelinas, Urbom, Merrill, Larsson, Matteau, Severson, and whoever NJ takes in this draft 9th overall (assuming that's where they end up). Then you've got a host of other decent-ish guys. Just because there's an arbitrary definition of prospect that silly sites adhere to and that NJ never ranks at the top, that doesn't concern me at all. The Wings were constantly ranked near the bottom of prospect sites in the early 2000s, along with the Devils, and both teams haven't really slowed down. Meanwhile teams like Florida are constantly near the top and never go anywhere.

NJ already made it through their roughest patch prospect-wise - between 2001 and 2007, the bona fide NHLers they drafted were: Zach Parise, Travis Zajac, and Mark Fayne. Two 1st line players and a solid D, but nothing else (I'll hear arguments for Bergfors, who I think had/has NHL talent but had other issues). They augmented those with Clarkson, Greene, and Oduya, but it's still not a great haul. These young players they have now look pretty darn good.


Not to mention the prospects you end up being able to trade for bona fide NHLers.




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#464 sundstrom

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:54 AM

Who cares about prospect pools?  Players drafted from 2008 on by NJ who have a good chance to be respectable NHLers:  Henrique, Loktionov, Josefson, Gelinas, Urbom, Merrill, Larsson, Matteau, Severson, and whoever NJ takes in this draft 9th overall (assuming that's where they end up).  Then you've got a host of other decent-ish guys.  Just because there's an arbitrary definition of prospect that silly sites adhere to and that NJ never ranks at the top, that doesn't concern me at all.  The Wings were constantly ranked near the bottom of prospect sites in the early 2000s, along with the Devils, and both teams haven't really slowed down.  Meanwhile teams like Florida are constantly near the top and never go anywhere.

 

NJ already made it through their roughest patch prospect-wise - between 2001 and 2007, the bona fide NHLers they drafted were:  Zach Parise, Travis Zajac, and Mark Fayne.  Two 1st line players and a solid D, but nothing else (I'll hear arguments for Bergfors, who I think had/has NHL talent but had other issues).  They augmented those with Clarkson, Greene, and Oduya, but it's still not a great haul.  These young players they have now look pretty darn good. 

 

loktionov wasn't drafted by NJ. and i think you could possibly add boucher to that list also.


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#465 Daniel

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:00 AM

loktionov wasn't drafted by NJ. and i think you could possibly add boucher to that list also.


Perhaps Scarlett also.
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#466 Triumph

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 04:14 PM

loktionov wasn't drafted by NJ. and i think you could possibly add boucher to that list also.

 

I'm aware of that, but he's 22/23 and a good player.  Not willing to add Boucher to the list because I've seen too many of these guys flop at the NHL level (or because I plum forgot about him when I wrote the list, could be one or the other)


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#467 Daniel

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:42 PM

On my ipad and can't post the link, but some pretty good tidbits from Lou on the draft from TG. Basically Lou said, it "doesn't take an Einstein" to figure out that the Devils want to draft young forwards. That and Lou admitting that the Devils don't really have the horses to trade into the top three. (They do have the horses to do it of course, Larsson, Merrill, etc, but aren't willing to do that). I think the fear is that it'll get to 9 and the defenseman available are all rated significantly higher than the forwards that are there. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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#468 SMantzas

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:51 PM


On my ipad and can't post the link, but some pretty good tidbits from Lou on the draft from TG. Basically Lou said, it "doesn't take an Einstein" to figure out that the Devils want to draft young forwards. That and Lou admitting that the Devils don't really have the horses to trade into the top three. (They do have the horses to do it of course, Larsson, Merrill, etc, but aren't willing to do that).I think the fear is that it'll get to 9 and the defenseman available are all rated significantly higher than the forwards that are there.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


I don't think Nurse, Ristolainen or Zadorov have necessarily separated themselves from guys like Shinkaruk, Domi or Zykov
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#469 Devils731

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:52 PM

On my ipad and can't post the link, but some pretty good tidbits from Lou on the draft from TG. Basically Lou said, it "doesn't take an Einstein" to figure out that the Devils want to draft young forwards. That and Lou admitting that the Devils don't really have the horses to trade into the top three. (They do have the horses to do it of course, Larsson, Merrill, etc, but aren't willing to do that). I think the fear is that it'll get to 9 and the defenseman available are all rated significantly higher than the forwards that are there. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

If the defenseman are much higher quality than the forwards at that point, I think the Devils would ask around to see if trading down makes sense.  One of Lou's quotes was about how deep the quality is in this draft.


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#470 Daniel

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:16 PM


If the defenseman are much higher quality than the forwards at that point, I think the Devils would ask around to see if trading down makes sense. One of Lou's quotes was about how deep the quality is in this draft.


Yeah, but you can't always get the right deal.

If we had only lost four more games.

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#471 Triumph

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:48 PM

On my ipad and can't post the link, but some pretty good tidbits from Lou on the draft from TG. Basically Lou said, it "doesn't take an Einstein" to figure out that the Devils want to draft young forwards. That and Lou admitting that the Devils don't really have the horses to trade into the top three. (They do have the horses to do it of course, Larsson, Merrill, etc, but aren't willing to do that). I think the fear is that it'll get to 9 and the defenseman available are all rated significantly higher than the forwards that are there. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

I don't think Merrill + 9th pick gets you into the top 3.


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#472 Daniel

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:04 PM


I don't think Merrill + 9th pick gets you into the top 3.


Understand, more meant to say that he could be the main part of some kind of package.



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#473 SterioDesign

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:57 PM

Who cares about prospect pools? Players drafted from 2008 on by NJ who have a good chance to be respectable NHLers: Henrique, Loktionov, Josefson, Gelinas, Urbom, Merrill, Larsson, Matteau, Severson, and whoever NJ takes in this draft 9th overall (assuming that's where they end up). Then you've got a host of other decent-ish guys. Just because there's an arbitrary definition of prospect that silly sites adhere to and that NJ never ranks at the top, that doesn't concern me at all. The Wings were constantly ranked near the bottom of prospect sites in the early 2000s, along with the Devils, and both teams haven't really slowed down. Meanwhile teams like Florida are constantly near the top and never go anywhere.

NJ already made it through their roughest patch prospect-wise - between 2001 and 2007, the bona fide NHLers they drafted were: Zach Parise, Travis Zajac, and Mark Fayne. Two 1st line players and a solid D, but nothing else (I'll hear arguments for Bergfors, who I think had/has NHL talent but had other issues). They augmented those with Clarkson, Greene, and Oduya, but it's still not a great haul. These young players they have now look pretty darn good.

Ah come on. Wo cares about prospects pool? Everyone in the organization does. Good Depth is everything, it gives you flexibility for callups and trades and its encouraging for the future. How often do we say " we dont have the assets to get this and this player" and its true that we dont. We have an old team with not a lot of guys with value and we have absolutely no offensive depth. Sure we have boucher but most team have a boucher in their prospects.

Edited by SterioDesign, 29 May 2013 - 10:09 PM.

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#474 Triumph

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:23 PM

Ah come on. Wo cares about prospects pool? Everyone in the organization does. Good Depth is everything, it gives you flexibility for callups and trades and its encouraging for the future. How often do we say " we dont have the assets to get this and this player" and its true that we dont. We have an old team with not a lot of guys with value and we have absolutely no offensive depth. Sure we have boucher but most team have a boucher in their prospects.

 

I don't care about Boucher.  I care that this team has a good outlook at center, lower-line wing, and defense.  And I don't care about prospect pools - I care about young players, period.  Just because Larsson spent 3 months as a 'prospect' doesn't make him any less good or important than someone who spends 2 years as a prospect and gets hyped up by his not being in the NHL (e.g. Granlund, Kuznetsov, etc.).  The Devils have good depth prospect-wise.  Their problem is that they don't have enough players aged 22-28 on their roster.


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#475 Chimaira_Devil_#9

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:37 AM

This is an interview with Lou Before the Draft Combine:

 

http://blogs.northje...ons_at_combine/

 

My favourite quotes:

 

“I’d say that if you had a preference and it was on an equal par it would be a scoring forward,” Lamoriello said. “It doesn’t take Einstein to think that one.”

 

New Colorado Avalanche head coach and VP of hockey operations Patrick Roy said Tuesday the team is looking into possibly trading the first overall pick. Lamoriello didn’t anticipate the Devils have a great chance of being involved in that discussion, though.

 

“From where we are, to move up they’d probably want our house,” Lamoriello joked.


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#476 SterioDesign

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:57 AM

I don't care about Boucher.  I care that this team has a good outlook at center, lower-line wing, and defense.  And I don't care about prospect pools - I care about young players, period.  Just because Larsson spent 3 months as a 'prospect' doesn't make him any less good or important than someone who spends 2 years as a prospect and gets hyped up by his not being in the NHL (e.g. Granlund, Kuznetsov, etc.).  The Devils have good depth prospect-wise.  Their problem is that they don't have enough players aged 22-28 on their roster.

 

you asked "who cared" obviously lots of people care about the team having a bright future with good youngsters coming their way so that they know who's coming up and who would be our future stars coming from our system and all. We wouldnt have to worry about our RW depth and having to throw the bank at a guy on free agency if we'd have good depth other than 3rd and 4th line kinda guy. Or top youngsters with "some value" that we could trade. Minny, Pittsburgh and Boston we're able to make some trades and even overpay to get what they wanted and got some decent guys in trade cause they had the depth and the prospects pool to afford it, and it won't hurt them that much to have sent away those guys. Boston who had 3 rookies in the playoffs and still winning? That was important too. Seriously i think youre just constantly trolling with your arrogant manners on purpose. As if its not important to have a good prospects pool, especially when most of your players are near retirements. Im sure players and managements would agree with me, at least looking at our forward depth.

 

So the real question is not "who cares about prospects pool". it's who cares that YOU don't care about it. like really.


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#477 Triumph

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:18 AM

you asked "who cared" obviously lots of people care about the team having a bright future with good youngsters coming their way so that they know who's coming up and who would be our future stars coming from our system and all. We wouldnt have to worry about our RW depth and having to throw the bank at a guy on free agency if we'd have good depth other than 3rd and 4th line kinda guy. Or top youngsters with "some value" that we could trade. Minny, Pittsburgh and Boston we're able to make some trades and even overpay to get what they wanted and got some decent guys in trade cause they had the depth and the prospects pool to afford it, and it won't hurt them that much to have sent away those guys. Boston who had 3 rookies in the playoffs and still winning? That was important too. Seriously i think youre just constantly trolling with your arrogant manners on purpose. As if its not important to have a good prospects pool, especially when most of your players are near retirements. Im sure players and managements would agree with me, at least looking at our forward depth.

 

So the real question is not "who cares about prospects pool". it's who cares that YOU don't care about it. like really.

 

I care about the team having good young players.  I don't care about 'prospect pools' - you cited that the Devils aren't 'ranked highly' in prospect lists.  Name a team with a better stable of D men drafted 2009 or later:  Gelinas, Urbom, Gedig, Merrill, Larsson, Scarlett, Severson.  

 

More what I'm getting at is that prospect lists are stupid (I just went to hockeysfuture and laughed my face off at how dumb some of their picks are).  Obviously the Devils should want good young players - they have those.  They have enough to make some sort of Kovalchuk type trade if they want to.  It looks like a very strong future on defense.


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#478 SterioDesign

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

I care about the team having good young players.  I don't care about 'prospect pools' - you cited that the Devils aren't 'ranked highly' in prospect lists.  Name a team with a better stable of D men drafted 2009 or later:  Gelinas, Urbom, Gedig, Merrill, Larsson, Scarlett, Severson.  

 

More what I'm getting at is that prospect lists are stupid (I just went to hockeysfuture and laughed my face off at how dumb some of their picks are).  Obviously the Devils should want good young players - they have those.  They have enough to make some sort of Kovalchuk type trade if they want to.  It looks like a very strong future on defense.

 

having good young players means having a good prospects pool, where do you think they come from ? lol if that was just a play on words just to get me going well thats pretty useless, yet once again you took LITERALLY what i said and not what the whole thing really meant . Do i have to say... "The devils doesnt have young potential top 6 offensive players except boucher, compared to most teams in the league?" Or "most teams have one or a few studs coming their way they are just waiting for him/them to be "Ready".

 

i mean its not rocket science, its not that black and white either but if some teams have a better / younger NHL team than NJ at this moment, and that they have studs coming their way. It's only looking bright for the future. We don't have that, our future is so damn uncertain its scary. Most of our top players are old and near retirement and theres no one to cover for them in our prospect pool. And where we actually have depth is at D and for some reasons they are not giving the kid their chances but stack the NHL with some horrible overpaid veterans.


Edited by SterioDesign, 30 May 2013 - 09:49 AM.

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#479 Daniel

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:30 AM

having good young players means having a good prospects pool, where do you think they come from ? lol if that was just a play on words just to get me going well thats pretty useless, yet once again you took LITERALLY what i said and not what the whole thing really meant . Do i have to say... "The devils doesnt have young potential top 6 offensive players except boucher, compared to most teams in the league?" Or "most teams have one or a few studs coming their way they are just waiting for him/them to be "Ready".

i mean its not rocket science, its not that black and white either but if some teams have a better / younger NHL team than NJ at this moment, and that they have studs coming their way. It's only looking bright for the future. We don't have that, our future is so damn uncertain its scary. Most of our top players are old and near retirement and theres no one to cover for them in our prospect pool. And where we actually have depth is at D and for some reasons they are not giving the kid their chances but stack the NHL with some horrible overpaid veterans.



First off, while I enjoy reading the HF individual prospect analyses, their team rankings seem to be a bit odd. They rank the Rangers pretty high, but if you look at their individual grades, I think the Devils ought to rank higher if you're just looking at the sum of the parts. So ultimately, as Tri noted, you can't really put any stock in superficial team rankings.

Otherwise, we get it, we'd all love to have young dynamic players. Unfortunately, more often than not, you have to stink for a while. The Kings had a lot of lean years, which helped them land Kopitar, Brayden Schenn (who turned into Richards), Jack Johnson (who turned into Carter), Doughty, and Dustin Brown. The Hawks were so awful at one point that their attendance was among the worst in the league. And we all know that the Penguins are the "lucky sperm club" of hocky teams.

But still, there's no magical formula. If being a young talented team is the key, Edmonton should at least be a playoff team. They actually haven't drafted any busts that I can think of with their high draft picks, yet they still stink. If the Devils all the sudden started a youth movement, and went down in the dumps, which would be more likely than not, you'd be saying more veteran leadership is required.

All in all, I would say the Devils' future is uncertain -- not bright, but not bleak either. Their defense is old on the whole, and has some weak links, but it's good enough that you can ease in the young defensemen over time. And, for all the belly aching, the Devils are still good defensively, whether you want to measure it by shots against or goals against.

At forward, I think you have at least five more years of Kovalchuk playing at a high level. Physically, he's a freak of nature, and doesn't have any of those debilitating nagging injuries that I know of. Zajac should be good for a while. Elias is old, but so are Datsyuk and Chara, just to name a few. If they hit the open market today, they'd get at least four year deals at $7million per year. Let me put it this way, who do you think is going to be better over the next three to four years, Elias or Courturier (or Zbenjiad, Strome, Yakupov, Granlund, Kreider, or any of those other players that are in the Hockey's Future top fifteen prospects)? If you knew the NHL were going to disband in five years, you would take Elias over ANYONE currently on one of those top prospect lists. Otherwise, there are enough depth type forwards of varying quality which can help the Devils at least tread water for the next few years.

In goal, it is what it is. I still maintain though that Marty was good enough when he wasn't hurt this year, and you can pick up another "good enough" type goalie with a little bit of luck.

Yes, it would be great to have a couple of forwards on the Hockey Future's top 50 list, regardless of how accurate you think those rankings and assessments are. And hopefully whoever we draft this year, will immediately be on that list. It just isn't necessary or sufficient to be a good team in the short, medium or even long term.

Sterio, I like you, but at times you sound like this teacher I had in high school who was also the swim team coach. He always noted that being the swim team coach was the easiest job in the world. All he did was sit there and say "swim faster". That's sort of what most sports fans are like.

Edited by Daniel, 30 May 2013 - 10:46 AM.

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#480 Daniel

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:48 AM

I'll also note another weird thing about the HF Top 50 prospect list is where they rank Merrill.  If you look at his individual assessment, they project him to be Ryan Suter, yet he's something like #50 if I recall correctly.  Seems like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.


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