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#201 nmigliore

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 10:49 PM

Meh, Geno only played like 10-15 snaps, can't really make much of his play.

 

Great that Sanchez had a strong final drive but preseason play isn't going to change my stance on him. There's a good 4 years worth of data and film that prove he's a terrible answer for a starting NFL QB. Geno may not turn out to be the answer himself either in the longrun, but at least the unknown factor is there and he represents far more upside than Sanchez.


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#202 nmigliore

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:58 AM

The Sanchize!

 

"Passer rating index," or Rate+, is a stat found on Pro-Football-Reference that hammers out a quarterback's passer rating into a score that's relative to all his fellow NFL quarterbacks that season. A Rate+ of 100 means he was completely average, higher is better, and lower is worse. Mark Sanchez's four years, in terms of Rate+, are below-average to terrible (75, 90, 92, and 77).

There are 119 instances of an NFL team starting the same guy at quarterback for four or more years (minimum 10 games per season). I found these guys' Rate+ over these seasons and then I stacked them all up.

 

mark3.png

 

http://www.sbnation....rk-sanchez-jets

 

#JustSayNoToMark 


Edited by nmigliore, 14 August 2013 - 09:58 AM.

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#203 '7'

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:10 AM

The Sanchize!

 

 

mark3.png

 

http://www.sbnation....rk-sanchez-jets

 

#JustSayNoToMark 

 

Not that I'm a huge Sanchez supporter...but if you do Terry Bradshaws first 4 years, he's actually worse than Sanchez. Also, Testaverde. He's so low because he was dragged down by a horrific Tampa team. 1993 and onward, he was a solid NFL QB with a brief flash of greatness here and there.

 

Phil Simms first 3 seasons were also very ugly. Sanchez-esque. But nobody really remembers that anymore

 

However, if Geno beats him outright in camp, the job should be his. But I feel if it continues to be close, they'll end up starting Sanchez and giving him 1 last shot at this thing with a leash much shorter than last years.


Edited by '7', 14 August 2013 - 10:18 AM.

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#204 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:19 AM

Wasn't going to comment in this thread until the Pats-Jets game, but this chart is interesting, in that it seems to be trying to take the era the QB played in out of the equation.  Still a tricky proposition, trying to do that though.

 

Interesting that 2 of the bottom 7 on have Super Bowl rings (Trent Dilfer and Doug Williams).

 

I don't know if this list is a great way to compare QBs...Drew Bledsoe had his warts, but I can't believe the names he's behind on this list.  The guy was NOT a below-average QB, no way, though he was definitely not good in the playoffs...his second-year numbers don't look great, from a YPA and TD-INT ratio standpoint, but that Pats team had NO running game, and it was ALL on him...he literally carried his team to 10 wins and a playoff appearance that season.  And Daunte Culpepper seems like he's way too high up there.  And Rich Gannon over Brady and Manning?! 

 

I think this is a little rough on Sanchez...he was thrown into service in his rookie year, and that tends not to go well, numbers-wise, so his numbers took a beating that year, but he played very well in the playoffs that season (and also his second).  Last year was a bad one, and I can understand why Jet fans and the franchise is down on him, but I don't think he's been as awful overall as this chart would lead one to believe. 


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#205 Daniel

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:24 PM

The Sanchize!

 

 

mark3.png

 

http://www.sbnation....rk-sanchez-jets

 

#JustSayNoToMark 

 

Any list that puts Trent Greene signicantly above Troy Aikman or John Elway doesn't have that much to tell you about anything.


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#206 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:41 PM

Wow I've never heard of Milt Plum and he's top five lol
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#207 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:45 PM

Any list that puts Trent Greene signicantly above Troy Aikman or John Elway doesn't have that much to tell you about anything.

 

Shows more about how the traditional QB rating system isn't the best way to compare QBs.  Elway's stats and ratings were always very pedestrian under Dan Reeves (they were light-years better with Shanahan).  And Aikman's numbers aren't spectacular either...he's one of those guys who fans that never saw him play will say "That's it?  C'mon, that guy wasn't that good!", when those who did see him play will say otherwise. 

 

nmig was just trying to make the point that Sanchez is a lousy QB...he probably didn't need a flawed chart to support it...he'll have plenty of agreement.  Still think the chart overstates Sanchez's "badness".

 

 

Wow I've never heard of Milt Plum and he's top five lol

 

I was thinking the same thing, lol.

And Drew Brees is on this list twice, both as way above average and as slightly above average.  I'm guessing one entry is for his SD seasons and one is for NO?


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#208 nmigliore

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:47 PM

This seems to have opened a can of worms that I didn't intend it to (and I completely understand the arguments said above, I don't find passer rating to be perfect by any means). Whatever. Probably foolish of me to even bother trying to reinforce the obvious.


Edited by nmigliore, 14 August 2013 - 12:58 PM.

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#209 nmigliore

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:52 PM

I was thinking the same thing, lol.

And Drew Brees is on this list twice, both as way above average and as slightly above average.  I'm guessing one entry is for his SD seasons and one is for N

 

Yeah. If you look at Milt Plum, you'll see he put great eye candy numbers with Cleveland before basically falling off dramatically as a Lion. But just because he had a great 4-5 year run doesn't mean he was a better QB than the names below him; dominant but short stretches of play by a QB with a particular team are going to be overrated on a list like this, but it's not meant to be a list of "Best QB's In Football History, ranked #1 and down". I think some folks are misinterpreting it as that. 


Edited by nmigliore, 14 August 2013 - 12:58 PM.

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#210 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:01 PM

Yeah. If you look at Milt Plum, you'll see he put great eye candy numbers with Cleveland before basically falling off dramatically as a Lion. But just because he had a great 4-5 year run doesn't mean he was a better QB than the names below him; dominant short peaks are going to be overrated on a list like this, but it's not meant to be a list of "Best QB's In Football History, ranked #1 and down". I think some folks are misinterpreting it as that. 

 

I agree, it is definitely NOT a "best to worst QB in football history" list, nor was I interpreting is as such.  I think it's more that there are guys whose on-the-field contributions aren't being accurately reflected.  And since this chart is based on a flawed stat to begin with (QB rating), it makes sense that the chart would show the same flaws.   

 

But yeah, as far as Sanchez goes, he's a guy who clearly has a mixed resume overall, trending towards downward.  Like '7' said, I think he gets one last shot (based on good playoff games and some big games here and there), but the leash is going to be VERY short this season.


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#211 Beezer34

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:54 PM

Not that I'm a huge Sanchez supporter...but if you do Terry Bradshaws first 4 years, he's actually worse than Sanchez. Also, Testaverde. He's so low because he was dragged down by a horrific Tampa team. 1993 and onward, he was a solid NFL QB with a brief flash of greatness here and there. Phil Simms first 3 seasons were also very ugly. Sanchez-esque. However, if Geno beats him outright in camp, the job should be his. But I feel if it continues to be close, they'll end up starting Sanchez and giving him 1 last shot at this thing with a leash much shorter than last years.

 

Sanchez has all the tools, and all the physical mechanics & attributes to be an above average quarterback in the NFL. What he’s lacking is the confidence.. and in sports, confidence is paramount.

The success that Sanchez had throughout his first 2½ seasons, aided heavily in his performance.. particularly late in games. When you’re so used to winning, you can become self-reliant in your ability, and natural instincts take over. There’s little-to-no doubt that enters your mind.. you go into every game thinking; “I got this, I’m gonna win this game!” Throughout MS’s first 51 regular-season\postseason games played, he posted a 32-19 record as a starter. 50 games worth of track-record is usually a good enough indicator to get a feel in what kind of an NFL QB you’re going to be. That doesn’t just happen by accident. However over the last 17 games, Sanchez has won only 5! He is in a MAJOR slump, and has gone from thinking; I’m gonna win this game.. to; “Oh sh!t, I’m gonna fvck up. We’re gonna blow this!” --That type of thought process, at this point in his career, may or may not be undone. It could take several years to get the type of confidence back that Sanchez had, and there are numerous things working against him to lean towards the side of him being “ruined” and too far gone from saving. It could possibly take going to another team, with less of a media frenzy than the NY area.

 

..still though, it’s remarkable to believe that going into his 5th season Sanchez is still only 26 years old. Not to mention having a very small sample size in college, which may be the reason why his development is taking longer than expected. As a fan, my support for Sanchez ends after this year. This is the last season he’ll have to prove himself, and after 5 years, I’m fine with that. Provided everyone remains somewhat healthy, he’s got decent enough receivers, an improved offensive line, and a legitimate quarterback coach & offensive coordinator. If it doesn’t happen this year, the Jets gave him every shot they could to help him regain himself.


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#212 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:08 PM

Sanchez has all the tools, and all the physical mechanics & attributes to be an above average quarterback in the NFL. What he’s lacking is the confidence.. and in sports, confidence is paramount.

The success that Sanchez had throughout his first 2½ seasons, aided heavily in his performance.. particularly late in games. When you’re so used to winning, you can become self-reliant in your ability, and natural instincts take over. There’s little-to-no doubt that enters your mind.. you go into every game thinking; “I got this, I’m gonna win this game!” Throughout MS’s first 51 regular-season\postseason games played, he posted a 32-19 record as a starter. 50 games worth of track-record is usually a good enough indicator to get a feel in what kind of an NFL QB you’re going to be. That doesn’t just happen by accident. However over the last 17 games, Sanchez has won only 5! He is in a MAJOR slump, and has gone from thinking; I’m gonna win this game.. to; “Oh sh!t, I’m gonna fvck up. We’re gonna blow this!” --That type of thought process, at this point in his career, may or may not be undone. It could take several years to get the type of confidence back that Sanchez had, and there are numerous things working against him to lean towards the side of him being “ruined” and too far gone from saving. It could possibly take going to another team, with less of a media frenzy than the NY area.

 

..still though, it’s remarkable to believe that going into his 5th season Sanchez is still only 26 years old. Not to mention having a very small sample size in college, which may be the reason why his development is taking longer than expected. As a fan, my support for Sanchez ends after this year. This is the last season he’ll have to prove himself, and after 5 years, I’m fine with that. Provided everyone remains somewhat healthy, he’s got decent enough receivers, an improved offensive line, and a legitimate quarterback coach & offensive coordinator. If it doesn’t happen this year, the Jets gave him every shot they could to help him regain himself.

 

Fair enough...I think you'll agree he won't get the FULL season though.  If they start 1-4 he's getting the hook unless the other options have been so underwhelming in practice.


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#213 Daniel

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:15 PM

Fair enough...I think you'll agree he won't get the FULL season though.  If they start 1-4 he's getting the hook unless the other options have been so underwhelming in practice.

 

Probably, although it isn't a stretch to say that he'll get his job back if the next guy struggles, which is a distinct possibility given how awful the supporting cast will likely be.  The Jets haven't invested that much in Geno Smith so as to completely cut bait on Sanchez, all other things being equal.


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#214 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:19 PM

Probably, although it isn't a stretch to say that he'll get his job back if the next guy struggles, which is a distinct possibility given how awful the supporting cast will likely be.  The Jets haven't invested that much in Geno Smith so as to completely cut bait on Sanchez, all other things being equal.

 

It's not so much that they've invested a lot in Geno, it's the fact Sanchez is going to receive A-Rod (Yankee version) levels of hatred at home if he even sneezes the wrong way.  I shudder to think at the reaction if he'd thrown that pick six to a DL's hands at home last weekend.  They can't have a poisonous atmosphere again the way they did for several weeks last year.


Edited by NJDevs4978, 14 August 2013 - 04:20 PM.

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-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#215 MantaRay

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:45 PM

I feel sorry Sanchez. He was developing nicely until Tannenbaum's mismanagement and Woody's insecutity's put him in a position to fail and establish some really bad habits. He needs a fresh start as a backup and find an organization that invests in developing players.
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#216 '7'

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:01 PM

I feel sorry Sanchez. He was developing nicely until Tannenbaum's mismanagement and Woody's insecutity's put him in a position to fail and establish some really bad habits. He needs a fresh start as a backup and find an organization that invests in developing players.

 

The Jets have been top 1/3rd in the NFL in developing players and identifying free agent talent since the late 90's or so, just look at our drafts, pro bowl selections, and all pro's. Sanchez has the same bad habits as he did weeks 1-4 in his rookie season. Ball security, poor job reading defenses. What's Sanchez excuse...they developed future hall of famers Mangold and Revis, they have multiple pro bowlers/all pro's every year. He has to take responsibility for something. Throwing pick 6's to D-lineman is not something the Jets need to "coach him up" from


Edited by '7', 14 August 2013 - 08:09 PM.

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#217 MantaRay

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 07:33 PM

That is just laughable. What have they developed or drafted in the past five years who was significant? Gholston? Hill? The best you've done in the Rex era was to steal former Ravens who we developed because the Jets can't.
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#218 '7'

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:01 PM

That is just laughable. What have they developed or drafted in the past five years who was significant? Gholston? Hill? The best you've done in the Rex era was to steal former Ravens who we developed because the Jets can't.

 

The Jets have had 4 losing seasons since 1996. That's all...that's because they draft well.

 

They drafted Shonn Greene who was solid and helped them to playoff wins

 

They drafted Kerley who has been a good receiver

 

They drafted Mo Wilkerson who has been very good (2nd team all pro last year)

 

The drafted Coples who had a great rookie season

 

Joe McKnight was 3rd in the NFL in kickoff return yardage last year

 

Matt Slauson was a solid 3 year starter at guard for us

 

manta...your entire shtick is hating on the jets since jumping on baltimores bandwagon. do some research before your anti jets diatribes. Nobody takes you seriously anymore.


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#219 NJDevs4978

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:05 PM

Well the 2000 draft they had so many top picks and because they hit on most of them it sustained the Jets for several years (Pennington, Ellis, Abraham) but their draft record has been spotty at times since.  Mangold and Revis were huge pluses - Dewayne Robertson and Gholston not so much.  The Parcells team was good for a few years based on FA signings - his drafts were a disaster for the most part - the Tannenbaum last few years were also based on win-now FA signings and draft trades, on balance the actual drafting's never been consistently great though.


Edited by NJDevs4978, 16 August 2013 - 08:07 PM.

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"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#220 '7'

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:11 PM

Well the 2000 draft they had so many top picks and because they hit on most of them it sustained the Jets for several years (Pennington, Ellis, Abraham) but their draft record has been spotty at times since.  Mangold and Revis were huge pluses - Dewayne Robertson and Gholston not so much.  The Parcells team was good for a few years based on FA signings - his drafts were a disaster for the most part - the Tannenbaum last few years were also based on win-now FA signings and draft trades, on balance the actual drafting's never been consistently great though.

 

but nobody is consistently great...look at how Pittsburgh whiffed in 2011. Or the Giants awful 2011 draft


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