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#641 Beezer34

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 11:37 AM

 

Now with Morningweg around (a legit offensive mind) it would be nice to have some weapons. The skill position players the last two years have been a joke. Where the QB thing hinders Rex the most is it affects the defense when they're constantly on the field, working with short fields and with basically zero margin for error.

 

 

Paradigm Shift!

 

When training-camp opened in August, the Jets starters were: Mark Sanchez, Santonio Holmes, Braylon Edwards, Jeff Cumberland, Nick Mangold, D’Brickashaw Ferguson, etc. The same nucleus from 2009. John Idzik couple that core with 1-year stop gaps: Josh Cribbs, Mike Goodson, Alex Green, Kellen Winslow, Greg Salas, David Nelson, and the rest of the castaways from the land of misfit toys.

Looking ahead; With the exceptions of Chris Ivory & Jeremy Kerley.. EVERYONE’S role is up in the air next season. (and yes, that includes younger players like Stephen Hill, Geno Smith & Bilal Powell) I can’t name 1 player who I can emphatically say will 100% be here next season. In fact, the Jets may pink-slip everyone.. and quite frankly I’D BE FINE WITH THAT! Idzik has his work cut-out for him here. We have no #1 WR.. no #2 WR. We have no #1 or #2 TE. We have no FB, no RT, no LG, but most of all.. we have no real QB. This is 2013. You need a QB to have a fighting chance in the NFL. Defense may win championships, but offense wins fvcking games. I for one am DONE with developing a QB! I don’t want to hear about Teddy Bridgewater, or Derek Carr, or Johnny Football. We’ve been “grooming quarterbacks” for the past 5 years. I AM DONE!!!!! If Rex is to remain head coach, then for God’s sake.. GIVE THIS MAN A FVCKING QUARTERBACK! Whether that’s Jay Cutler, or Michael Vick. Ben Roethlisberger.. Matt Schaub.. ANYBODY!! Seriously, I want a fvcking quarterback. We haven’t had a real QB since Brett Favre 6 fvcking years ago. --and as much as everyone wants to sh!t on that season, no one was complaining when the Jets were 8-3. When Favre was healthy, the Jets were rolling. When he tore his biceps tendon AND his right shoulder ligament, THAT’S when the season went to sh!t. Signing\Trading\Finding a bona`fide quarterback needs to be priority number one for the front office. The fans are done with Tim Tebow, Matt Simms, Geno Smith, Greg McElroy.. WE WANT A LEGIT STARTER. :angry: 


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#642 '7'

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:33 PM

exactly, that's why I laugh when lurking on Jets message boards and watching them dismiss the likes of Cutler and Schaub. Neither are perfect but are legit NFL starters. If one of them ever gets behind center for the Jets, Jets fans will marvel at how night and day it will become in comparison to Sanchez/Smith. Cutler doesn't need to managed and handled and protected. 

 

As for receiver...one will be drafted (maybe even with our first picks) and with a ton of cap space this off-season, I'd like to see them sign Jeremy Maclin. Kerley is coming back and I believe Hill will be given one last chance in camp

 

We need another O-Lineman as well, and I wouldn't hesitate taking the best one on the board in the 2nd round

 

With our 2 third round picks, I would take a playmaking tight end as well as a safety

 

Hopefully rounds 4 down we can find a Leon Washington type


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#643 Hi, I'm VALUE!

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:17 PM

Mike Evans may be your best choice in the mid-first round.  Sammy Watkins is also up there, but there are way too many teams above the Jets to feel comfortable about getting Watkins (and of all the years, I would not trade up; I suspect the Jets could benefit from bulk in picks in rounds 1-3).  Heck, you may be able to trade down and still get Evans + some picks.


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#644 Daniel

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:19 PM

exactly, that's why I laugh when lurking on Jets message boards and watching them dismiss the likes of Cutler and Schaub. Neither are perfect but are legit NFL starters. If one of them ever gets behind center for the Jets, Jets fans will marvel at how night and day it will become in comparison to Sanchez/Smith. Cutler doesn't need to managed and handled and protected. 

 

As for receiver...one will be drafted (maybe even with our first picks) and with a ton of cap space this off-season, I'd like to see them sign Jeremy Maclin. Kerley is coming back and I believe Hill will be given one last chance in camp

 

We need another O-Lineman as well, and I wouldn't hesitate taking the best one on the board in the 2nd round

 

With our 2 third round picks, I would take a playmaking tight end as well as a safety

 

Hopefully rounds 4 down we can find a Leon Washington type

 

The question ultimately comes down to whether Schaub or Cutler, and whatever weapons you want to give them, will put the Jets close to competing with the Patriots, Broncos (and, gasp! might I say Miami).  If not, you're at best a pretty good team that is in the playoff discussion, which I assume Jets fans don't want.

 

Schaub clearly regressed this year, while having a lot of weapons, so who knows whether he's the answer.  Cutler is a bit risky in that if you sign him, you're doing it for big money, and you're committed to him taking you to the promised land.  Cutler is definitely an improvement over what's there now, and Schaub might be.

 

Really, I think the Jets would be best served looking for a franchise QB through the draft until they get it right. 


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#645 NJDevs4978

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:41 PM

I think the opposite, if they do draft another QB they still need a stopgap type like Schaub or Vick, enough with this throw the guy in as a rookie then mold him into a game manager. I thought all along Geno needed to sit this year.
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#646 '7'

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:43 PM

The question ultimately comes down to whether Schaub or Cutler, and whatever weapons you want to give them, will put the Jets close to competing with the Patriots, Broncos (and, gasp! might I say Miami).  If not, you're at best a pretty good team that is in the playoff discussion, which I assume Jets fans don't want.

 

Schaub clearly regressed this year, while having a lot of weapons, so who knows whether he's the answer.  Cutler is a bit risky in that if you sign him, you're doing it for big money, and you're committed to him taking you to the promised land.  Cutler is definitely an improvement over what's there now, and Schaub might be.

 

Really, I think the Jets would be best served looking for a franchise QB through the draft until they get it right. 

 

that's a legit course of action, just keep trying...discard the geno's/sanchez's and keep looking until you've found a Luck or stumbled upon a Brees. But Jets fans I believe are tired of young QB's developing. 

 

Plus if they go the young QB route again this draft, the QB position will again lag behind as the rest of the team is built up. The Jets have a ton of cap space this year and an elite defensive line. They will spend money in the offseason shoring up what they need to shore up with free agents as well as the draft (plus they have an extra 3rd with the Revis trade) We don't want the QB position holding us back again as some rookie throws 25 picks and fumbles 8 times (well Cutler might throw 25 picks but 30 td's as well) as other parts of the team are ready to compete.


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#647 Daniel

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:53 PM

that's a legit course of action, just keep trying...discard the geno's/sanchez's and keep looking until you've found a Luck or stumbled upon a Brees. But Jets fans I believe are tired of young QB's developing. 

 

Plus if they go the young QB route again this draft, the QB position will again lag behind as the rest of the team is built up. The Jets have a ton of cap space this year and an elite defensive line. They will spend money in the offseason shoring up what they need to shore up with free agents as well as the draft (plus they have an extra 3rd with the Revis trade) We don't want the QB position holding us back again as some rookie throws 25 picks and fumbles 8 times (well Cutler might throw 25 picks but 30 td's as well) as other parts of the team are ready to compete.

 

Yeah, I definitely understand the frustration with the trial and error approach.  But that's the situation that virtually every team has found themselves in at one time or another. 

 

I think Cutler is a moot point anyway since he's probably going to re-sign with Chicago.


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#648 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:29 PM

that's a legit course of action, just keep trying...discard the geno's/sanchez's and keep looking until you've found a Luck or stumbled upon a Brees. But Jets fans I believe are tired of young QB's developing. 

 

Plus if they go the young QB route again this draft, the QB position will again lag behind as the rest of the team is built up. The Jets have a ton of cap space this year and an elite defensive line. They will spend money in the offseason shoring up what they need to shore up with free agents as well as the draft (plus they have an extra 3rd with the Revis trade) We don't want the QB position holding us back again as some rookie throws 25 picks and fumbles 8 times (well Cutler might throw 25 picks but 30 td's as well) as other parts of the team are ready to compete.

 

I think we all make the mistake of thinking rookies can't come right in and have some success (in the 80s and 90s, that was very true).  But we've seen, especially with all of the rule changes benefitting offenses, it doesn't necessarily have to be ugly four or five-win seasons for two or three years.  Look at Tannehill, Luck, RG III, Flacco, Newton...not like they completely dragged their teams down despite having no NFL experience.  Of course, it's all about drafting the RIGHT guy, and there's no guarantees...just saying the young QB route no longer equals instant irrelevance for the short-term.


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#649 MantaRay

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 06:49 AM

There are two recipes for success in establishing a franchise QB:

draft them, but don't rush them into the starting job: Aaron Rogers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees,Tony Romo.

2. Drafting a franchise QB should be the Final piece of the puzzle. First priority is the O-line, Running game, WR corps then QB. Mark Sanchez, Flacco (by accident ), Big Ben.

For every big splash picks like Andrew Luck, there are at least five failures.

Gino Smith suffered the same fate as Sanchez the last few years in NY: an inconsistent O-line and probably the weakest corps of WR in the game and a weak running game. A young QB should not be thrown to the wolves like this.
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#650 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 07:17 AM

Tony Romo was an undrafted player.

 

Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round, 199th overall.  Patriots flipped-flopped between taking Brady or Tim Rattay with that pick, before settling on Brady.

 

Just because they've become franchise QBs now doesn't mean they were envisioned as such when they were starting out in the NFL.  Scouts and teams don't let franchise QBs go undrafted or slip to 199th.  Brady got his chance out of dumb luck (Bledsoe, who WAS considered to be the indisputable #1 guy in NE at the time, got hurt), and Romo got his shot because Bledsoe was over the hill.  Both guys clearly made the very most out of their chances, but neither guy was signed to his team with the thinking "We've got a franchise QB here."  Romo was almost cut in 2004 (Dallas had signed Vinny Testaverde and traded a 3rd-rounder for Drew Henson), but Quincy Carter was cut instead, due to allegations of substance abuse. 

 

And teams have to draft the guy they think can be their franchise QB when he's available to them, regardless of the other pieces that may or may not already be in place.  I'm not talking about the Jets specifically here (Geno Smith is a little more of a lower-risk, possible high-reward, being a mid-round 2nd rounder), but you can't pass up a guy you think can be one of the NFL's best for years to come just because the team doesn't have all of its positions filled out.  If you truly feel like your young QB can be THAT good, you can fill in the pieces around him in the next few seasons, as he develops.  You WILL get guys like WR, RB, OL...if a QB is that good, high-profile players will want to sign with a team with a young, top-tier QB.  If you're a team picking in the upper first round without a decent QB on your roster and there's a guy there you feel like will be as close to a sure thing as possible, I don't think you say, "Well, we're not ready to take a guy like that yet."  You nab him, even sit him for a year if you have to, but you don't pass him up.  Drafts are very year-to-year...I think you have to act when you get your shot at a potential top-tier QB.         


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 20 December 2013 - 07:21 AM.

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It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#651 Beezer34

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 09:31 AM

Geno Smith suffered the same fate as Sanchez the last few years in NY: an inconsistent O-line and probably the weakest corps of WR in the game and a weak running game. A young QB should not be thrown to the wolves like this.

 

Bingo! I don’t know when this new craze started of instantly playing the kid you draft, but it’s silly. For some teams it may work, depending on the level of talent in the team\player, and other various circumstances. But for other teams it’s exactly what you said; “throwing a kid to the wolves” ..without any safety net. Even Eli (the number one overall pick) sat for most of his rookie season. What’s so wrong with sitting a rookie for a season or two? Jet fans are making it sound like it’s Geno or bust for the next 4 years. Am I the only one who views that point-of-view as insane??!
Hypothetically, let’s say the Jets trade their 1st round draft pick for Roethlisberger. You’re going to tell me it would kill Geno Smith’s career? It would destroy the psyche of a 23 year-old kid, to tell him: We’re going with Big Ben.. sit for a year and learn.

 

..if that’s the case, would you even want a QB who’s that mentally fragile on your team?


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#652 Daniel

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 10:11 AM

Bingo! I don’t know when this new craze started of instantly playing the kid you draft, but it’s silly. For some teams it may work, depending on the level of talent in the team\player, and other various circumstances. But for other teams it’s exactly what you said; “throwing a kid to the wolves” ..without any safety net. Even Eli (the number one overall pick) sat for most of his rookie season. What’s so wrong with sitting a rookie for a season or two? Jet fans are making it sound like it’s Geno or bust for the next 4 years. Am I the only one who views that point-of-view as insane??!
Hypothetically, let’s say the Jets trade their 1st round draft pick for Roethlisberger. You’re going to tell me it would kill Geno Smith’s career? It would destroy the psyche of a 23 year-old kid, to tell him: We’re going with Big Ben.. sit for a year and learn.

 

..if that’s the case, would you even want a QB who’s that mentally fragile on your team?

 

Things are a little different now in that the rules have changed to open up the passing game.  While it doesn't mean every rookie QB needs to have Russel Wilson's success immediately, a rookie QB needs to show some level of competence in his first season if you're going to have confidence that he's a franchise QB.  The QB also has to show improvement during the course of his first season.

 

Geno was just downright awful for a large stretch of games to the point that he looked like the worst QB in all of football, although perhaps it's unfair because the Jets gave him nothing to work with.  I'm not a scout, so I can't tell you whether his problems are correctable and whether he can be franchise QB in the next few years.  If the Jets aren't convinced of that, and they feel there's a QB available in the draft or free agency that can be better, I think they have to strike when they get the opportunity, especially if there isn't an impact player at another position available where they're drafting.  (To take an extreme example, if the Jets were in a position to draft a QB like Andrew Luck in this draft, it would be no-brainer to cut bait on Geno).    Fact is, most first round picks don't turn into much more than decent starters.  If you take a chance on a QB that fizzles out, especially now when you don't have to break the bank to sign him, it's not a giant set back.  The Vikings look like they have a bust with Christian Ponder.  But in the end, they're not really any worse for wear. 


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#653 MantaRay

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:04 PM

Tony Romo was an undrafted player.

 

Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round, 199th overall.  Patriots flipped-flopped between taking Brady or Tim Rattay with that pick, before settling on Brady.

 

Just because they've become franchise QBs now doesn't mean they were envisioned as such when they were starting out in the NFL.  Scouts and teams don't let franchise QBs go undrafted or slip to 199th.  Brady got his chance out of dumb luck (Bledsoe, who WAS considered to be the indisputable #1 guy in NE at the time, got hurt), and Romo got his shot because Bledsoe was over the hill.  Both guys clearly made the very most out of their chances, but neither guy was signed to his team with the thinking "We've got a franchise QB here."  Romo was almost cut in 2004 (Dallas had signed Vinny Testaverde and traded a 3rd-rounder for Drew Henson), but Quincy Carter was cut instead, due to allegations of substance abuse. 

 

And teams have to draft the guy they think can be their franchise QB when he's available to them, regardless of the other pieces that may or may not already be in place.  I'm not talking about the Jets specifically here (Geno Smith is a little more of a lower-risk, possible high-reward, being a mid-round 2nd rounder), but you can't pass up a guy you think can be one of the NFL's best for years to come just because the team doesn't have all of its positions filled out.  If you truly feel like your young QB can be THAT good, you can fill in the pieces around him in the next few seasons, as he develops.  You WILL get guys like WR, RB, OL...if a QB is that good, high-profile players will want to sign with a team with a young, top-tier QB.  If you're a team picking in the upper first round without a decent QB on your roster and there's a guy there you feel like will be as close to a sure thing as possible, I don't think you say, "Well, we're not ready to take a guy like that yet."  You nab him, even sit him for a year if you have to, but you don't pass him up.  Drafts are very year-to-year...I think you have to act when you get your shot at a potential top-tier QB.         

 

Romo, is probably a bad example, but he basically earned his way on the team.

 

Brady was drafted for a reason and he was forced into play (as was Flacco), but Brady had time to learn the system, as did Rogers.

 

While I agree that you have to take a shot when a player is available, you don't neccessarly have to destroy that asset before he is ready to play and also you surround him with the best opportunity to succeed.


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#654 NJDevs4978

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:23 PM

Problem with that reasoning is the # of rookie QB's that HAVE made an impact has multiplied in recent years.  Ryan and Flacco made the playoffs their rookie year.  So did Luck, RGIII and Wilson last year.  Even Sanchez made the playoffs as a rookie.  So the grading curve has been a bit more skewed in recent years.

 

That said, I thought Sanchez would have been best served in the long run by learning the NFL since he only had a year in college.  I didn't want to throw Geno in right away either because there just wasn't the infrastructure (players) around him to have him succeed.


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#655 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:23 PM

Romo, is probably a bad example, but he basically earned his way on the team.

 

Brady was drafted for a reason and he was forced into play (as was Flacco), but Brady had time to learn the system, as did Rogers.

 

While I agree that you have to take a shot when a player is available, you don't neccessarly have to destroy that asset before he is ready to play and also you surround him with the best opportunity to succeed.

 

Again, Brady was a what-the-hell, why not, it's only a 6th-rounder kind of pick.  He's made the pick look like a stroke of genius, but that's giving the Patriots too much credit for picking him.  Bledsoe was the man...on a big contract, he was only 29 years old when he got hurt...though it turned out the Pats were wrong, they thought it was the O-line that had become the problem in Bledsoe's last seasons.  It quickly became apparent that the problem was Bledsoe himself...Brady could read defenses much more quickly, and also made better decisions (Drew had a LOT of "WTF was THAT?!" decisions).  Maybe if Bledsoe had sucked for a full season, Brady would've gotten a shot, but I can tell you that the thinking was that Bledsoe was the franchise QB and was going to be for a long time, warts and all. 

 

I think it's a tough call for franchises when it comes to young QBs...I agree, of course you don't want your rookie getting sacked 70+ times and getting shell-shocked on a team with no chance to win...goes without saying (that probably ruined David Carr).  But unfortunately, most of the time you're in the position to draft franchise QBs because you're in a sorry state to begin with...which means your team has a lot of holes already.  Yeah, it's always preferable to let your crown jewel sit for a year or two as the team fills holes (hopefully on the OL)...but with some 1st-year guys enjoying some success recently, some teams (and their fanbases) are going to have trouble being patient...especially if the stopgap/temporary QB is not playing well.


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#656 CRASHER

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:13 PM

Its harder to sit rookies now because of the way the contract system is....you draft a guy you get three (maybe a 4th with an option) years to look at the guy and decide if he's worth it when it's time to pay the guy for real.....which is why most teams are tossing the rookies out there and seeing if they're worth it (especially the way QB salaries get instantly stupid in this league)....given the Jet scenario is about as no-win as it gets for a QB, but that's life in the NFL with their cap rules....


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#657 MantaRay

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:14 PM

Problem with that reasoning is the # of rookie QB's that HAVE made an impact has multiplied in recent years.  Ryan and Flacco made the playoffs their rookie year.  So did Luck, RGIII and Wilson last year.  Even Sanchez made the playoffs as a rookie.  So the grading curve has been a bit more skewed in recent years.

 

That said, I thought Sanchez would have been best served in the long run by learning the NFL since he only had a year in college.  I didn't want to throw Geno in right away either because there just wasn't the infrastructure (players) around him to have him succeed.

 

For every Ryan there is a Brandon Weedon, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, or Christian Ponder.

 

Flacco was third on our depth chart his first year, training  camp injuries got him to be our starter.  Both Ryan, Flacco and Sanchez fell into great situations because each had a strong running game so they did not get exposed to a lot of bad situations.

 

To me only Luck was really prepared to be an NFL franchise QB.    RGIII had the benefit of Albert Morris and several good WR's.


Edited by MantaRay, 20 December 2013 - 05:15 PM.

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#658 Daniel

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:27 PM

For every Ryan there is a Brandon Weedon, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, or Christian Ponder.

Flacco was third on our depth chart his first year, training camp injuries got him to be our starter. Both Ryan, Flacco and Sanchez fell into great situations because each had a strong running game so they did not get exposed to a lot of bad situations.

To me only Luck was really prepared to be an NFL franchise QB. RGIII had the benefit of Albert Morris and several good WR's.


RGIII also had the benefit of the novelty of the read option/pistol offense last year.


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#659 MantaRay

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 11:44 AM

RGIII also had the benefit of the novelty of the read option/pistol offense last year.


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also true


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#660 NJDevs4978

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 12:35 PM

http://www.nj.com/je..._to_report.html

 

It was nice knowing ya Rex :(


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