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How success kills good teams (and why S. Gionta needs benching)


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#21 JWomp

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:44 PM

Well I'm glad you're not our GM, because Gionta is one of the hardest working players on the team and he definitely deserves to be here.


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#22 msweet

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:51 PM

Good post but it is simply our 4th line (playoffs) playing 3rd line....just need to get though regular season and use the cap space to get some late season rentals and turn a real 3rd line...Zubie coming back will be the start of this


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#23 SterioDesign

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:53 PM

Tri you're definitely OBSESSES with that shooting % stat and its seriously ridiculous. lol its seriously laughable. not saying it's a bad stat it can somehow point out stuff but it's like +/- you can't take it for money cause it's often not the players fault at all he could have just changed and was rushing to get to the play and they get scored on. seriously it's RIDICULOUS to put that much into those stats. ridiculous

 

why don't you get that ALL plays have different context and that every shots have a different level of probable success and that it's not reflecting at all the play of ALL players on the ice?

 

is Parise the best player in the league because he's leading with shots? Clarkson the 2nd best player in the league? by your logic they are

 

"Stephen Gionta is killing this team." wow... 

 

still waiting for you to explain what our mighty JJ is doing in Albany right now also


Edited by SterioDesign, 17 February 2013 - 01:55 PM.

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#24 NJDevils1214

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:55 PM

Going to agree with Stereo and JWomp on this one. Numbers can't tell the whole story and CBGB has been a great line for NJ. JJ hasn't done anything and people want to believe so bad he will be the next John Madden that they don't seem to want to look at reality. I like JJ and I hope he can be the great player that he has the potential to be, but until he proves he is making progress there is no point in getting too hopeful. While his hockey sense is much better, the kid is on par with Teddy as far as his physical ability. He falls all the time and loses puck battles in the corner. He needs to get stronger or more aggressive. JJ is already bigger than Gionta and Gio does a much better job than him in the physical department. 


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#25 halfsharkalligatorhalfman

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:56 PM

I'd like to see Gionta benched just cause I'm curious what Loktionov brings to the NHL.

EDIT: Oh wow I just saw that he was called up and JJ was sent down
http://www.njdevs.co...howtopic=130532

From a win now perspective it makes more sense to bench Gionta and have JJ serve as a PK specialist it sounds like, but I guess they want JJ to become more than that. Oh well....

Edited by halfsharkalligatorhalfman, 17 February 2013 - 02:03 PM.

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#26 SterioDesign

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:02 PM

Going to agree with Stereo and JWomp on this one. Numbers can't tell the whole story and CBGB has been a great line for NJ. JJ hasn't done anything and people want to believe so bad he will be the next John Madden that they don't seem to want to look at reality. I like JJ and I hope he can be the great player that he has the potential to be, but until he proves he is making progress there is no point in getting too hopeful. While his hockey sense is much better, the kid is on par with Teddy as far as his physical ability. He falls all the time and loses puck battles in the corner. He needs to get stronger or more aggressive. JJ is already bigger than Gionta and Gio does a much better job than him in the physical department. 

 

exactly. But thats what he does... when he wants to pump some players tires cause he feels like it or cause he really want him to succeed, if the stats are not going that players way he'll go with the "he's doing so many things thats not showing on the stat sheets" but then the other way around for another player he'll go strictly with like 95% of black on white stats with no context at all to build a case against him lol

 

oh some people's children...


Edited by SterioDesign, 17 February 2013 - 02:02 PM.

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#27 Triumph

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:04 PM

Tri you're definitely OBSESSES with that shooting % stat and its seriously ridiculous. lol its seriously laughable. not saying it's a bad stat it can somehow point out stuff but it's like +/- you can't take it for money cause it's often not the players fault at all he could have just changed and was rushing to get to the play and they get scored on. seriously it's RIDICULOUS to put that much into those stats. ridiculous

 

why don't you get that ALL plays have different context and that every shots have a different level of probable success and that it's not reflecting at all the play of ALL players on the ice?

 

is Parise the best player in the league because he's leading with shots? Clarkson the 2nd best player in the league? by your logic they are

 

"Stephen Gionta is killing this team." wow... 

 

still waiting for you to explain what our mighty JJ is doing in Albany right now also

 

You don't understand anything I post about, apparently.

 

No, Zach Parise is not the best player in the league because he leads the league in shots.  I would never say that, or anything like it.

 

But you've got to keep the puck in the opponent's end and keep it out of yours, and while the Gionta line has some great shifts, they're just not very good at doing that regularly.  It means they will end up being minus players.  Which is fine, if you're being given difficult assignments and being started a lot in your own zone.  The Gionta line is doing the former but not the latter, but they're still getting absolutely reamed.  


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#28 SterioDesign

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:12 PM

You don't understand anything I post about, apparently.

 

No, Zach Parise is not the best player in the league because he leads the league in shots.  I would never say that, or anything like it.

 

But you've got to keep the puck in the opponent's end and keep it out of yours, and while the Gionta line has some great shifts, they're just not very good at doing that regularly.  It means they will end up being minus players.  Which is fine, if you're being given difficult assignments and being started a lot in your own zone.  The Gionta line is doing the former but not the latter, but they're still getting absolutely reamed.  

 

I do understand what you're trying to say but im still 110% convinced that you're putting WAY too much into those stats even Lemaire said that it's no big deal if the other team is staying a whole shift in your end as long they don't have great scoring chances and that you're containing them and under control.

 

but im asking for the 3rd time. What about those JJ numbers? you really seem to use the stats just when they are saying what you want them to say.


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#29 hystyk28

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:12 PM

Gionta should not be on th PK. He uses a really short stick, which makes it way easier for PP to move the puck so easily. Unless, you play, you don't realize the tactical advantage it is for the other teams. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
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#30 Daniel

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:14 PM

You don't understand anything I post about, apparently.
 
No, Zach Parise is not the best player in the league because he leads the league in shots.  I would never say that, or anything like it.
 
But you've got to keep the puck in the opponent's end and keep it out of yours, and while the Gionta line has some great shifts, they're just not very good at doing that regularly.  It means they will end up being minus players.  Which is fine, if you're being given difficult assignments and being started a lot in your own zone.  The Gionta line is doing the former but not the latter, but they're still getting absolutely reamed.  


How much time should a third/fourth line unit that gets tough assignments be spending in the offensive zone? Or, can you give me another third/fourth line that gets tough assignments that does significantly better?

Gionta is what he is. A well above average fourth liner who at times look out out his league on the third line. That's more than you can say for most players that have the same role.
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#31 devilsrule33

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:17 PM

Why can't stats back up what you see? If someone asked me has the Gionta line been in their end more or in the other team's more this year. I would say I am pretty sure their own, as numerous times I have seen them pinned in their own end for a long period of time making me extremely nervous. And here is Tri giving me the stats that back up what I have seen.

The Gionta story is a great one. But take away the career AHLer finally getting in his first start in his late 20s. Take away the fact that he is 5'6, and take away the fact his last name is Gionta, and he is just another guy who played well above his ahead for 15 games or so that is in a role way to big for him now. I love his effort too. But effort can't make up for a ton of limitations. Like I said before, I think there is a role for him in the NHL, but it shouldn't be the one the team is giving him now.

Edited by devilsrule33, 17 February 2013 - 02:17 PM.

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#32 Devils731

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:17 PM

Gionta's line has been struggling for many games now. Just spending many shifts running behind the puck while the other team cycles and creates great chances.

My eyes see that obvious thing, the numbers just confirm it.
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#33 Triumph

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:20 PM

I do understand what you're trying to say but im still 110% convinced that you're putting WAY too much into those stats even Lemaire said that it's no big deal if the other team is staying a whole shift in your end as long they don't have great scoring chances and that you're containing them and under control.

 

but im asking for the 3rd time. What about those JJ numbers? you really seem to use the stats just when they are saying what you want them to say.

 

Because you can't do that.  Scoring chances and Corsi converge over a long enough time period, and there've been enough people tracking scoring chances now to assert that confidently.  So yeah, you can go 1 or 2 shifts a game like that, 5 or 10 games where you're getting way more scoring chances than your Corsi would indicate or vice-versa - but overall, the idea behind Corsi is that it's supposed to represent zone time, and the Devils spend way too much time in their own zone when that line is on the ice.

 

Josefson's numbers have improved considerably, but just about any young player is going to lose confidence when 2% of the shots go in for him and 15% go in for his opponents.  I'm not that surprised about that move and Josefson should be back and should be fine.


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#34 Triumph

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:25 PM

How much time should a third/fourth line unit that gets tough assignments be spending in the offensive zone? Or, can you give me another third/fourth line that gets tough assignments that does significantly better?

Gionta is what he is. A well above average fourth liner who at times look out out his league on the third line. That's more than you can say for most players that have the same role.

 

He is not a well above average 4th liner.  At all.  That's the narrative and I don't know where it comes from, I guess 40 NHL games of being lucky will do that.

 

Gionta and his line is not always matched against top players - DeBoer's not a strict linematcher.  It's a problem when the matchup you want at home is the one that your opponent wants when he's at home (which we saw with Crosby).  I understand where DeBoer's coming from here, but it doesn't add up.


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#35 DH26

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:30 PM

He is not a well above average 4th liner.  At all.  That's the narrative and I don't know where it comes from, I guess 40 NHL games of being lucky will do that.

 

Gionta and his line is not always matched against top players - DeBoer's not a strict linematcher.  It's a problem when the matchup you want at home is the one that your opponent wants when he's at home (which we saw with Crosby).  I understand where DeBoer's coming from here, but it doesn't add up.

 

there's a reason he wasn't in the league at all pretty much until the last game last year. It seems (just from my eye test) that Carter/Bernier are the ones who are establishing whatever forecheck that line gets and Gionta's just kinda there. I'd put Loktionov with them but we all know that's not gonna happen 


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#36 Zubie#8

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

He is not a well above average 4th liner.  At all.  That's the narrative and I don't know where it comes from, I guess 40 NHL games of being lucky will do that.

 

Gionta and his line is not always matched against top players - DeBoer's not a strict linematcher.  It's a problem when the matchup you want at home is the one that your opponent wants when he's at home (which we saw with Crosby).  I understand where DeBoer's coming from here, but it doesn't add up.

I think a lot of us completely understand, but I think a lot of us also want to see a more competent third line to see what CBGB could do in more of a 4th line role. They are getting too much ice time right now and a lot of times against top lines. But I do agree that I do not like Gionta on the PK. I want Gionta down to under 10 minutes a game, no more 13-16 minutes games like he has been getting. This will all come when we get a good third line hopefully with an acquisition or when Zubrus comes back.


Edited by Zubie#8, 17 February 2013 - 02:35 PM.

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#37 RangersSuck23

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:43 PM

My opinion sucks but I agree that Gionta hasn't got increasingly better like carter and bernier, and Gionta doesn't deserve a 3rd line center and ESPECIALLY a first pk role. The pk role I find absolutely ridiculous
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#38 Daniel

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:44 PM

He is not a well above average 4th liner.  At all.  That's the narrative and I don't know where it comes from, I guess 40 NHL games of being lucky will do that.
 
Gionta and his line is not always matched against top players - DeBoer's not a strict linematcher.  It's a problem when the matchup you want at home is the one that your opponent wants when he's at home (which we saw with Crosby).  I understand where DeBoer's coming from here, but it doesn't add up.


What? Give me even 15 fourth liners that are better than him? Otherwise, you're all over the place. An admission that he's had success over 40 games (or virtually his entire NHL career) but that it's "luck". He's not always matched up against the other teams top players, but then pointing to how bad he does against Crosby, et al. On the other hand, Josefson is not producing, but that's just bad luck.

The whopper of course is that what DeBoer is doing doesn't quite add up. HELLO, the same formula got the Devils to the SCF last year, and has them in first place right now. Obviously what he's doing adds up, or adds up a lot more than anything anyone else has to offer.

I have no particular attachment to Gionta. Find someone who's better and I'll happily send him back to the AHL. Hell, I would love it if were him instead of Josefson or even Tedenby being sent to the AHL. I love it when our first round picks succeed. But anyone with a pair of eyeballs realizes that right now anyway, Gionta belongs with the team more than any other available replacement, including Joesfson.
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#39 Joonas #6

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 03:04 PM

Well I'm glad you're not our GM, because Gionta is one of the hardest working players on the team and he definitely deserves to be here.

 

I agree. Gionta's alright. And the Devils are 9-3-3 so I guess they're doing something right, and those numbers are more important than some shooting % stats in my opinion.


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#40 sundstrom

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 03:05 PM

it would not surprise me that, come playoff time, assuming health, this is the forwards we're putting out there game 1:

 

ponikarovsky-zajac-kovalchuk

elias-henrique-clarkson

zubrus-loktionov-butler

matteau/carter-josefson-bernier

 

but i agree that CBGB got manhandled against the flyers to the point that I questioned what the hell deboer was doing.


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