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In defense of Lou


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#21 sundstrom

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:55 AM

 

 

 

Goaltending after Marty?  Two+ years and playoffs:

 

2010-11:  .903

2011-12:  .908

2011-12 playoffs:  .917

2012-13:  .911

 

That's average-ish, but the guy's 40.  There are just no guarantees at all that he can maintain even this rate.  When your two goalies were drafted back when Zubaz were the hottest thing in men's fashion, you are risking a severe drop in play.  And I don't even think this drop in play is necessarily visible, either - meaning that even if Hedberg is a true talent .880 goalie, the Devils won't find that out until the end of this season.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure that it is.  And I think that guy is going to be tough to get because a lot of teams are struggling with goaltending these days.

 

tremendous on the zubaz call - i had several pair.

 

also - w/ goaltending league wide being a bit worse, you could say a rising tide raises all ships.

 

there are goalies in the system that, at least, have some pedigree and could conceivably be ok. there's also always money in the banana stand (europe).


Edited by sundstrom, 11 March 2013 - 09:55 AM.

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#22 ATLL765

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:58 AM

How quickly we forget so many bad moves, contracts and items.

 

Lets just try to remember one: the 2010/2011 John McLean as coach to start and not making the playoffs.

Did you think it was a bad move to start with? MacLean, who's name you've spelled wrong, was named coach after spending MANY MANY years as assistant coach and then having done fairly well as head coach on the farm. So I'm pretty sure no one saw that sh!t coming. It's absolutely insane to have picked that out, if anything, what was Lou's fault was our roster jam at the beginning of the season that was only saved by Rolston getting hurt and going on LTIR.

Lou has won us 3 Cups, drafted many HOF players and done us fans all pretty well. Now you want to nitpick over his few bad decisions? Like you never make one or something. On the Cups and Finals trips alone, he could have basically been sleeping the rest of the time and it's still ok.


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#23 coldply123

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:20 AM

Lou hasnt been very good since the last lockout in a number of areas. People can wax poetic about the three cups and thats great, but that is not the subject of how to handle the future.

Bringing up bad teams and their GM situations is really not specific to the Devils. Its apples and oranges.

It is time to start pondering the succession. I dont want Lou fired or embarrassed at all, but he is at the point where there is real merit to the conversation of change and having some fresh ideas and such.
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#24 mouse

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:32 AM

Lou hasnt been very good since the last lockout in a number of areas. People can wax poetic about the three cups and thats great, but that is not the subject of how to handle the future.

 

I don't buy that anymore. Initially, without question he made some bad moves. Now he's opting for cap flexibility, and doing a good job of it. He had money to keep Zajac, he has space for the next few years to keep Henrique, and Kovy's locked up. He needs one more good forward, but he's not crippling his future moves by taking the best available for too much (Rolston). Sometimes what you want isn't there, and that hurts, but that's not on the GM, or anybody else.


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#25 Beezer34

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:40 AM

Bringing up bad teams and their GM situations is really not specific to the Devils. Its apples and oranges.
It is time to start pondering the succession. I dont want Lou fired or embarrassed at all, but he is at the point where there is real merit to the conversation of change and having some fresh ideas and such.


I agree with the suggestion that it's time to start thinking of Life after Lou. The guy's in his 70's, and I think 2 more years (3 at the absolute max) is all he's really looking for.

Regarding the goaltending situation however.. I fork ZERO blame on Lamoriello.
Marty has missed nearly 80 games due to injury since 2009, and his paying for the 15 years where he played 75+ games a season. He's breaking down like a 40 year old goalie playing over 1,200 games would.. and Lou locked up Johan to play alongside him with the best intentions that the previous 2 season worth of track-record would repeat itself. -and why wouldn't it? Moose has nearly 40 victories since becoming a Devil. He's been the best backup\co-starter goalie a Devils fan could ask for. Better than Vanbiesbrouck, better than Weekes, and yes.. even better than Clemmensen.
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#26 Pepperkorn

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:42 AM

Lou hasnt been very good since the last lockout in a number of areas. People can wax poetic about the three cups and thats great, but that is not the subject of how to handle the future.

Bringing up bad teams and their GM situations is really not specific to the Devils. Its apples and oranges.

It is time to start pondering the succession. I dont want Lou fired or embarrassed at all, but he is at the point where there is real merit to the conversation of change and having some fresh ideas and such.

Who has done a better job in the period 2004 - 2012? 

Who do you have in mind as a legitimate replacement - no cop out "it'll just be Chris so why even discuss it"


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#27 Triumph

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:31 AM

Lou hasnt been very good since the last lockout in a number of areas. People can wax poetic about the three cups and thats great, but that is not the subject of how to handle the future.

Bringing up bad teams and their GM situations is really not specific to the Devils. Its apples and oranges.

It is time to start pondering the succession. I dont want Lou fired or embarrassed at all, but he is at the point where there is real merit to the conversation of change and having some fresh ideas and such.

 

There've been points where I have thought this, but I really don't think it's true.  Lou is a bit weak when it comes to free agent signings and sometimes his hand has been forced in that regard.  The drafting, which I don't really consider Lou's in full, hasn't always been outstanding.  But can you name a bad trade he's made since the lockout? (I guess Halischuk and a 2nd for Arnott qualifies, but Halischuk is a healthy scratch in Nashville, which he deserves to be).  And there've been some great undrafted free agent signings, too.


Edited by Triumph, 11 March 2013 - 11:32 AM.

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#28 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:01 PM

I agree with the suggestion that it's time to start thinking of Life after Lou. The guy's in his 70's, and I think 2 more years (3 at the absolute max) is all he's really looking for.

Regarding the goaltending situation however.. I fork ZERO blame on Lamoriello.
Marty has missed nearly 80 games due to injury since 2009, and his paying for the 15 years where he played 75+ games a season. He's breaking down like a 40 year old goalie playing over 1,200 games would.. and Lou locked up Johan to play alongside him with the best intentions that the previous 2 season worth of track-record would repeat itself. -and why wouldn't it? Moose has nearly 40 victories since becoming a Devil. He's been the best backup\co-starter goalie a Devils fan could ask for. Better than Vanbiesbrouck, better than Weekes, and yes.. even better than Clemmensen.

 

Lou and Marty aren't going to be around forever...we've all known it for years, but it's getting close.  This era we were all lucky enough to be part of for so long is soon going to be referred to in the past tense.

 

Re:  Marty, who knows if he's paying for having played all of those games?  No goalie never made it as far as Marty did even BEFORE he started getting hurt, so there's really no other case study, as far as knowing how an almost 41-year-old goalie with 1204 regular season GP should break down.  He was at 1034 GP going into the '08-'09 season (the first where he missed significant time to due to injury), and 99% of that time, he was completely healthy, which is a major feat in of itself.  Patrick Roy, at 1029 GP, is the only other goalie to play over 1000 regular season games.  If he was at, say, 850-900 GP heading into the '08-'09, would it have really made much difference?  Especially since it can be argued that he had a lot of rest in 2004-05?  What's amazing is that, in 11 out of 12 seasons (from '96-'97 to '07), Marty played in 70+ games every year (in the one year he didn't, he started 67), and from what I remember, got hurt briefly at the beginning of the '05-'06 season when he tweaked his knee, yet still played in 73 games that season.  Like Tri has pointed out, the last few seasons have been a mixed bag...there's been times where he's almost looked old and finished, but was able to bounce back and turn in respectable-to-pretty good numbers.   

 

As for his backups, let's face it...for the most part, the only time any of them really got a typical backup's chance to play (or more) is when Marty got hurt, though when Hedberg came aboard, it seemed like the Devils were finally fighting the urge to start Marty his typical 70+.  I think even now Marty would probably still want to start 70+ if he thought he could handle it, which is part of what makes players like him what they are.  They never stop believing in themselves...I am sure that some goalies who started last season the way Marty did (.894 save% thru the end of January) might have hung 'em up, either in-season or at year's end. 


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#29 Devils Pride 26

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 01:03 PM

Only defense that Lou needs... is the fact that this team is still playing in New Jersey. You want to whine about a slump? Go root for the team across the river.


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#30 devilsrule33

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 01:27 PM

There've been points where I have thought this, but I really don't think it's true.  Lou is a bit weak when it comes to free agent signings and sometimes his hand has been forced in that regard.  The drafting, which I don't really consider Lou's in full, hasn't always been outstanding.  But can you name a bad trade he's made since the lockout? (I guess Halischuk and a 2nd for Arnott qualifies, but Halischuk is a healthy scratch in Nashville, which he deserves to be).  And there've been some great undrafted free agent signings, too.

The drafting is 100% Conte. I don't think Lou has his finger on any of that, and the main reason Conte never left is probably because he has carte blanche to draft anybody he wants. He needs to convince Lou to try and trade up and down, but has usually got Lou to make those deals when he wants them.

I guess you can blame Lou for losing picks which may have hurt the team, however.
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#31 Triumph

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 04:28 PM

The drafting is 100% Conte. I don't think Lou has his finger on any of that, and the main reason Conte never left is probably because he has carte blanche to draft anybody he wants. He needs to convince Lou to try and trade up and down, but has usually got Lou to make those deals when he wants them.

I guess you can blame Lou for losing picks which may have hurt the team, however.

 

Sure, but Lou hired him and gave him that latitude, and it's usually paid off.  Most of general managing isn't in player evaluation, per se - there's only so much time a GM has for that - it's in hiring the right people and trusting them to make the right decisions on players.


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#32 Zubie#8

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 05:50 PM

Bernier and Carter have quietly become big parts of this team. Lou did wonders last season, lets see what else he has up his sleeve this year, Lokti already looks like a good move.


Edited by Zubie#8, 11 March 2013 - 05:50 PM.

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#33 Jerrydevil

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

While watching this team struggle for the past three weeks, my first instinct isn't to blame Lou. I actually don't blame anyone because I think this team will get hot again. Just a gut feeling.


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#34 The 29th Pick

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 06:39 PM

a few good moves and this team is a contender again.....Lou will do whats right.

 

Look....what we have been through the last few weeks, many teams have been playing like this for YEARS

 

We missed the playoff's like what....3 times in the last 15 years? cant complain about that


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#35 coldply123

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:55 PM

Lou should not really get credit for Bernier and Carter. Those were waiver wire pickups essentially and they were on DeBoer's request at that.
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#36 ziti17

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:58 PM

Lou should not really get credit for Bernier and Carter. Those were waiver wire pickups essentially and they were on DeBoer's request at that.

Yeah I credit Deboer with the success of those two guys. Thats my opinion at least.
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#37 Triumph

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:44 PM

Lou should not really get credit for Bernier and Carter. Those were waiver wire pickups essentially and they were on DeBoer's request at that.

 

That's very silly.  DeBoer has denied on both occasions that he had much to do with either's acquisition.

 

EDIT:  I see now that Lou says DeBoer wanted Carter.  Still, that's part of my point - GMs don't know every player in the league.  That isn't their job.  Their job is to hire people who do and to use their knowledge to the team's advantage.


Edited by Triumph, 11 March 2013 - 08:55 PM.

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#38 mouse

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:26 PM

EDIT:  I see now that Lou says DeBoer wanted Carter.  Still, that's part of my point - GMs don't know every player in the league.  That isn't their job.  Their job is to hire people who do and to use their knowledge to the team's advantage.

 

Also, one of Lou's weaknesses has been his unwillingness/inability to get the right coach and keep him. Finally, he's found a smart coach, and they're playing off each other really well. Sure, DeBo had a lot to do with Carter coming to NJ, but Lou working with his coach and the two of them having a shared vision benefits everyone. 

 

I've always been a Lou defender (since he's one of the best ever and all), but even I admit he had some serious issues after the lockout. Hell, I'll even admit he has some shortcomings now -- he hands out no trade clauses like candy. That said, he's learned from his mistakes in ways that few GMs can, and even fewer old. successful GMs will. He's done a better job the past two years or so than he has at any point since the lockout. The team is in very solid shape, and is 1 or 2 pieces away from another Cup run. I think they make one before Marty retires, and when Marty retires, I have faith in Lou's ability to get a decent goalie to replace him.


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#39 ziti17

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:40 PM

In all honesty, I think both Lou and Deboer both deserve credit for the success of those guys
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#40 coldply123

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:10 PM

Deboer requested both Bernier and Carter. That is fact behind the scenes despite what Deboer said publicly. And its not silly to give him credit for that. Its not like Lou had too many alternatives at the time on his own.

Mouse, you can also argue half the teams in the NHL are one or two players away from a Cup run so thats really BS. Lou had a nice rebound year last year, but this year is yet to be written and thus far the grades are iffy.
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