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#41 Marshall

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:40 AM

If you're doubtful about underlying numbers/fancy stats/adv stats...Mark Fraser is a good example. We all know him, we all know what his playing is like and we all know he's not a very good defender. But he lead the league in +/- for a few weeks and he's still in the top 20. Mark Fraser hasn't gone and become a great defenseman all of a sudden, he is after all 8th in ice time among defenseman on that Toronto team. But the underlying numbers show why (absurd shooting percentage and SV%...which is falling now), along with your eyes, whilst the traditional numbers don't.


Edited by Marshall, 27 March 2013 - 02:42 AM.

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#42 SterioDesign

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:07 AM

Feel free to ignore me if you like, it's not difficult to do.  Sterio gives as good as he gets, he's called me out either actually or by implication in multiple threads.  If he continues I'll ignore him and the board will likely be better for it, but I hope he doesn't.

 

Sterio:  I don't control what other people post - I don't think I've posted anything about Loktionov's shooting percentage.  It's more about managing expectations, I guess.  Loktionov is real good but he's not likely to be a 30 goal scorer anytime soon, that's all.

 

Loktionov was purely a made up example. It's about the way you try to use stats arrogantly in every single post you make.

 

Feel free to ignore me if you like, it's not difficult to do.  Sterio gives as good as he gets, he's called me out either actually or by implication in multiple threads.  If he continues I'll ignore him and the board will likely be better for it, but I hope he doesn't.

 

Sterio:  I don't control what other people post - I don't think I've posted anything about Loktionov's shooting percentage.  It's more about managing expectations, I guess.  Loktionov is real good but he's not likely to be a 30 goal scorer anytime soon, that's all.

It's not about what other people are posting. Personally in the last few months i've been a downer on the forum and i pissed off a few people, and some called me out on it. I obviously don't like to be seen as a downer/whinner im not like that usually. And it hits home, so then lately i'm working on it and trying not to sound like a downer all the time so that everyone is happy and don't see me as a negative poster. 

 

Now how many times did someone called you out for acting superior and trying to make people feel like they are dumb when they don't agree with what you think with that know-it-all attitude? It's not about what you said it's about the way you say things. And you've been called out for it by MANY PEOPLE, MANY TIMES. Everyone appreciate what you bring to the forum in term of analysis but fair to say most hate the way you bring it to the table most of the time.

 

Never crossed your mind to work on that? like.. bringing the same arguments without sounding like an arrogant mental bully? 


Edited by SterioDesign, 27 March 2013 - 07:08 AM.

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#43 Pepperkorn

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:31 AM

That's exactly why you need supplemental data. No one says stats are stand-alone, be all end all. Marshall you're sort of making the whole case for corsi/fenwicks It also kind of seems like you ignored Tri's follow up post. I'd be hard pressed not to respond "Duuude -- didn't you even read what I just wrote?" I'd call you stupid because I'd know full well you didn't even look at what I wrote. Not because you were dumb but because I was frustrated with how you call me a jackass (maybe not in so many words- or few as the case may be) without even considering what I wrote.

 

My stats fear, is based on a worry that their use will change the game - take out the heart and soul. but that's just the ludite in me. People need to make peace with the fact that numbers are not soulless. Mathematics is the language of God. Art = math.

 

So many comments are just not getting it - not even attempting to get it. How can a guy trying to teach the value of stats even respond when no one honestly wants to understand - they just want to be offended. You guys aren't too stupid or lazy to understand -- no, it looks like you just want to be offended and launch a counter attack without even attempting to understand what got you upset to begin with. I'd call you stupid to try to get you to tell me what you know. Like calling a guy a nancy to get him to fight. Just give it a shot - try to understand what stats people tell you with their stats - read what people write rather than just calling it superior mumbo jumbo, you know?


Edited by Pepperkorn, 27 March 2013 - 08:37 AM.

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#44 DevsMan84

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 09:10 AM

The way I see it, there two types of sports people:

 

Those who watch the game and use stats to fill in the blanks.  Then there are those to bury their heads in the stat sheets and watch the game a little to fill in the blanks.  I consider myself to be in the first group.

 

Stats are important and I do not think either side will deny that, but it is a folly to think that the stats show everything just as much as totally ignoring them.  However, I also feel the people who tend to the be in the second group have bloated but tender egos as I have encountered the same type of superiority complex whether it is for baseball, football, basketball or hockey.

 

Just my 2 cents.


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#45 SterioDesign

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 09:20 AM

The way I see it, there two types of sports people:

 

Those who watch the game and use stats to fill in the blanks.  Then there are those to bury their heads in the stat sheets and watch the game a little to fill in the blanks.  I consider myself to be in the first group.

 

Stats are important and I do not think either side will deny that, but it is a folly to think that the stats show everything just as much as totally ignoring them.  However, I also feel the people who tend to the be in the second group have bloated but tender egos as I have encountered the same type of superiority complex whether it is for baseball, football, basketball or hockey.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

agreed with everything you said, i've been saying that some stats are bullsh!t and useless lately, i'd re-phrase that saying that i'm simply against the way some are using them.

 

i'd also add that i'm strongly believing that a good amount of the 2nd group as not played a lot of the sport they are following and are missing that "experience" of some aspect of the game and are ignoring or downplaying the importance of intangibles. When you played sports you know how important stuff like that is over the course of a season. You can't see that through stats.


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#46 DH26

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 09:47 AM

agreed with everything you said, i've been saying that some stats are bullsh!t and useless lately, i'd re-phrase that saying that i'm simply against the way some are using them.

 

i'd also add that i'm strongly believing that a good amount of the 2nd group as not played a lot of the sport they are following and are missing that "experience" of some aspect of the game and are ignoring or downplaying the importance of intangibles. When you played sports you know how important stuff like that is over the course of a season. You can't see that through stats.

 

No matter what hockey experience you have, it's exactly the same amount in the NHL as everyone else on this board and most of the time I've seen people play that card it's out of desperation 


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#47 SterioDesign

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:19 AM

No matter what hockey experience you have, it's exactly the same amount in the NHL as everyone else on this board and most of the time I've seen people play that card it's out of desperation 

 

On my part, it's really really not out of desperation. NHL is simply a higher level, players are dealing with the same stuff and they are doing the same thing than any other sports. If anything it's even more important at that level cause it's easier to slide and lose yourself in that circus sometimes.

 

I've played with guys who we're not putting up points but they we're bringing so much, just the way they we're willing to suffer for the team, or the way they'd help the young guys giving them tips and pointers in any situations, or just the way they approach the game or how they play every shift giving everything they have. It really goes a long way. What Langs did for Zach and what Zach did for Henrique goes a long way and what Elias as been doing for years now.

 

But all that stuff is mostly stuff that the fans don't see or simply hear about it in interviews and stuff, but you need that to be successful. There's a reason Lou trust his vets so much, cause they are PACKED with intangibles. You also don't see too often a GREAT players simply based on their skills, great players are skills + some kind of intangibles... Toews, Iginla, Crosby, etc


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#48 ATLL765

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:58 AM

This really shouldn't be a gang up on Triumph thread. Everyone know he and I don't get along well. However, his stat analysis is valuable and he contributes to the forum. I learned to just get past his "Holier than Thou" attitude and value his analysis since he typically has something important to add.

I agree, that was my whole point. I mentioned Sterio was giving it too, but Tri can just be so condescending and that bothers me is all. I would honestly like to learn more about the stats and Tri is someone who clearly understands how the stats work, but anyone else like me is gonna be turned off when they disagree with Tri and he makes them feel like he thinks they're idiots for having disagreed, rather than trying to use the lack of understanding as teaching tool. That's my thoughts.


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#49 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:49 AM

I agree, that was my whole point. I mentioned Sterio was giving it too, but Tri can just be so condescending and that bothers me is all. I would honestly like to learn more about the stats and Tri is someone who clearly understands how the stats work, but anyone else like me is gonna be turned off when they disagree with Tri and he makes them feel like he thinks they're idiots for having disagreed, rather than trying to use the lack of understanding as teaching tool. That's my thoughts.

 

Don't want to pile on Tri, but you get what you get with him:  his presentation of less commonly-known methods of measuring hockey players (you may not agree or only partially agree with those methods, but at the very least, they spark debate and discussion), heartfelt and passionate insights, and occasional lack of bedside manners that unfortunately have a way of taking the focus where it should lie (on the point he's presenting), and instead turning it towards HOW he presented his point, or chose to counter someone else's point.  I think most posters here have learned to accept that part of Tri's posting manner, but I think there are other members here (at times I've been one of them) who wishes the more abrasive ways Tri sometimes chooses to post could be softened (preferably by Tri himself).  That being said, I don't think he's going to change, so as far as that part of it goes, if you get into a debate with Tri and he doesn't agree with your points or counterpoints, and you're in a sensitive frame of mind during the exchange, you're probably going ot be put off on occasion by what he has to say, or more specifically, how he says it.  I've had good and both frustrating dialogue with Tri over the years, and there have been times where I've passed on debating with him because I had a pretty good idea of how he might respond. 

 

All this being said, would the board be missing a lot if he wasn't a participant?  Absolutely.     


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 27 March 2013 - 11:50 AM.

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#50 Triumph

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:13 PM

I agree, that was my whole point. I mentioned Sterio was giving it too, but Tri can just be so condescending and that bothers me is all. I would honestly like to learn more about the stats and Tri is someone who clearly understands how the stats work, but anyone else like me is gonna be turned off when they disagree with Tri and he makes them feel like he thinks they're idiots for having disagreed, rather than trying to use the lack of understanding as teaching tool. That's my thoughts.

 

This is fair - I tend to get upset when people pick fights (as happened here).  Typically if someone's open to ideas, I will not do this, but I'm not perfect in this regard.  Part of it is also that I've had ongoing discussions about these matters for years and that while the arguments are new to some, they're old to me and many of the people here, and I tire of explaining myself as though I'm saying these things for the first time.  Devils731 is someone who's much better at this.


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