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The State Of The Devils


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#21 maxpower

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:21 PM

How were they glorified exhibition games?  The other team wanted to win, I'm sure.  That doesn't explain why teams shot 5.6% in score close situations against NJ for that entire stretch - NJ got great goaltending, but certainly nowhere close to true talent.

 

For the Devils.   There was nothing on the line.   It's easier to play that way.    Even the Flyers in their awful season were much more of a threat later in the season.   And they were just as bad if not worse than us early on.


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#22 Triumph

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:46 PM

For the Devils.   There was nothing on the line.   It's easier to play that way.    Even the Flyers in their awful season were much more of a threat later in the season.   And they were just as bad if not worse than us early on.

 

I really don't buy this logic at all.  Especially coupled with the logic of 'what if the Devils quit down the stretch?' you were saying earlier.  You are absolutely trying to have this two ways.


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#23 maxpower

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

I really don't buy this logic at all.  Especially coupled with the logic of 'what if the Devils quit down the stretch?' you were saying earlier.  You are absolutely trying to have this two ways.

 

You're missing the point.   They are still competing at this point.   If for whatever reason, they broke, you'd have to sit there and watch as they cratered.

Luckily, with the limited amount of hockey left, this isn't really possible.

 

You said originally that the Devils are in a bad luck spot because of the short season, they really don't have any time for things to balance out, as they normally would.   What I'm saying is "be careful what you wish for."   Just as easily as they could recover over 82 games in plenty of time to make the playoffs, they could also fall off the face of the earth and reprise December 2010.   They are losing now, but at least they are competing.


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#24 Triumph

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:05 PM

You're missing the point.   They are still competing at this point.   If for whatever reason, they broke, you'd have to sit there and watch as they cratered.

Luckily, with the limited amount of hockey left, this isn't really possible.

 

You said originally that the Devils are in a bad luck spot because of the short season, they really don't have any time for things to balance out, as they normally would.   What I'm saying is "be careful what you wish for."   Just as easily as they could recover over 82 games in plenty of time to make the playoffs, they could also fall off the face of the earth and reprise December 2010.   They are losing now, but at least they are competing.

 

'Just as easily' - please cite examples of teams 'falling off the face of the earth' in this way who are as good as New Jersey is.  Then I'll cite examples of teams as good as NJ is having stretches like this and pulling out of it.


Edited by Triumph, 08 April 2013 - 06:05 PM.

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#25 capo

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:57 PM

The Devils have outplayed teams for years.  It's never about effort with the Devils. (maybe for a game or two)  It's about scoring goals.  Shots and advanced stats don't mean squat, zone time doesn't mean sh!t either.  It's about making the most out of the opportunities you do get  The Devils have always battled and that's what makes them so good year after year.  Take a look SOG compared to their opponents over the last several years.  You'll see that they nearly outshoot their opponent every single game.  Sometimes very handedly and they still lose.  The only times the Devils significantly scoring superior were 2000 and 2001 and Lou got pissed and blew up the team because the A-Line became bigger than the crest logo.  Deboer's style can work and he's with the right team to make it work but we have to get the players with some touch that can play that style.  All these 5th liners we keep sending out there need to go.  The Devils have drafted very poorly for many years (and very unintelligently too).  The team is bad because the GM has been bad.  If we want to give Lou credit for what he's done right he needs to wear it when they are bad.  It's on him. 


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#26 SterioDesign

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:03 PM

our goaltending is bad but its not bad like lets say philly or pens sometimes who scores 4-5 goals but still lose... when we lose its because our goalie gave up one bad goal and we can't score 2


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#27 capo

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:08 PM

our goaltending is bad but its not bad like lets say philly or pens sometimes who scores 4-5 goals but still lose... when we lose its because our goalie gave up one bad goal and we can't score 2

Marty is still a servicable goalie but he should be a 1b at this point.  Lou should have had his replacement ready to go by now.


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#28 2ELIAS6

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:34 PM

the goaltending can be discussed until your blue in the face, obviously it isnt what it use to be we all know that, see this and understand it.. but its still good and pretty damn good ( not talking about hedberg here obviously)... we all realize the real problem here is this group of guys for whatever reason just cannot score fvcking goals!.. obviously we arent going to win a game if they cant figure out how to score more then one goal.
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#29 CarterforPresident

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:34 PM

Your right sterio and in all honesty that's not horrible that'll happen I rather that then be down five goals all these games we lost but that isn't the case.
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#30 NJCroMag

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:49 AM

The State Of The Devils

 

New Jersey.

 

What do I win?

 

(Oh, that's right...I went there, man.)


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#31 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:38 AM

Re:  the A-Line, Lou blew it up because it wasn't very good in 2001-02.  They were damned near invisible on the road.  When fans bring up its prowess, they tend to remember 2000 and 2001, but forget 2002. 

 

Re:  the 2010-11 team, when you get off to a 10-29-2 start, let's face it, even though the players all have to say the right things, none of them are thinking about making the playoffs at that point...there wasn't much pressure on them, though I think there was a lot of it on Kovy...Year #1 of a megadeal, a god-awful start, booed on his own turf, trying to improve his all-around game, probably for the first time ever at the NHL level.  The second half of that season was odd, in that to start the second half, the Devils suddenly started scoring goals for seven games (mostly because Rolston's shooting luck, just as suddenly, changed for the better).  Then their offense pretty much disappeared again, but they started winning a slew of low-scoring, one-goal games due to timely scoring.  Then it came apart just enough (though it's damned near impossible to keep up a 23-3-2 pace, especially when the team isn't really scoring) at the end, but overall, the record was probably on the low end of what the Devils were that season, with Zach missing so much time.  They should've been better than 38-39-5, but I don't know HOW much better...had Lemaire been coaching from the outset, maybe 6-10 points better?  Who knows?  Doesn't really matter anyway, can't get a DeLorean with a flux capacitor to replay that season. 

 

I know there haven't been too many "Fire DeBoer!" types, in the grand scheme, but the Devils DO respond to him, and they DO play hard.  They just lack depth and don't have a lot of guys capable of cashing on their chances, and when one of your top guys gets hurt, and the ones you're counting on to put home the puck (Elias, Zajac) flat-out aren't doing that, not hard to see what's going to happen.  The Devils are in a position where they now have to count on Clarkson to score, which is NOT good...not knocking Clarkson, but he's the kind of guy who should be looked at as a "bonus" kind of scorer, not a guy the Devils NEED to score. 


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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
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It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#32 '7'

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:58 AM

Re:  the A-Line, Lou blew it up because it wasn't very good in 2001-02.  They were damned near invisible on the road.  When fans bring up its prowess, they tend to remember 2000 and 2001, but forget 2002. 

 

Re:  the 2010-11 team, when you get off to a 10-29-2 start, let's face it, even though the players all have to say the right things, none of them are thinking about making the playoffs at that point...there wasn't much pressure on them, though I think there was a lot of it on Kovy...Year #1 of a megadeal, a god-awful start, booed on his own turf, trying to improve his all-around game, probably for the first time ever at the NHL level.  The second half of that season was odd, in that to start the second half, the Devils suddenly started scoring goals for seven games (mostly because Rolston's shooting luck, just as suddenly, changed for the better).  Then their offense pretty much disappeared again, but they started winning a slew of low-scoring, one-goal games due to timely scoring.  Then it came apart just enough (though it's damned near impossible to keep up a 23-3-2 pace, especially when the team isn't really scoring) at the end, but overall, the record was probably on the low end of what the Devils were that season, with Zach missing so much time.  They should've been better than 38-39-5, but I don't know HOW much better...had Lemaire been coaching from the outset, maybe 6-10 points better?  Who knows?  Doesn't really matter anyway, can't get a DeLorean with a flux capacitor to replay that season. 

 

I know there haven't been too many "Fire DeBoer!" types, in the grand scheme, but the Devils DO respond to him, and they DO play hard.  They just lack depth and don't have a lot of guys capable of cashing on their chances, and when one of your top guys gets hurt, and the ones you're counting on to put home the puck (Elias, Zajac) flat-out aren't doing that, not hard to see what's going to happen.  The Devils are in a position where they now have to count on Clarkson to score, which is NOT good...not knocking Clarkson, but he's the kind of guy who should be looked at as a "bonus" kind of scorer, not a guy the Devils NEED to score. 

 

In the A-Line's defense, Lou sabotaged it by refusing to sign Mogilny, who went to Toronto and had a hugely clutch playoffs while the Devils gagged and died to Carolina with Nieuwendyk basically floating around and doing nothing. With no 2nd line threat teams keyed on the A-line...plus scoring as a whole suffered a drop in 01-02 relative to 00-01 when there was a brief uptick.


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#33 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:25 AM

In the A-Line's defense, Lou sabotaged it by refusing to sign Mogilny, who went to Toronto and had a hugely clutch playoffs while the Devils gagged and died to Carolina with Nieuwendyk basically floating around and doing nothing. With no 2nd line threat teams keyed on the A-line...plus scoring as a whole suffered a drop in 01-02 relative to 00-01 when there was a brief uptick.

 

Don't want to turn this into a "The Rise and Fall of the A-Line" thread, but I understand why Lou didn't re-sign Mogilny...he had been missing games in recent seasons (in the three seasons before '00-'01, he played in 51, 59, and 59 regular season games, before playing in 75 in '00-'01).  In 48 playoff games with the Devils, he had scored just 9 goals, and was clearly being counted on for more.  I think Lou worried that, if he signed him to a similar deal that the Leafs did, that it could turn out to be a bad contract in a hurry.  He also probably thought Dagenais was ready to pick up some of the slack, and with every move Lou made back then seeming to turn to gold, why not? 


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[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#34 Anhkheg

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:25 AM

Where do most high scoring teams score their goals? Short: Around the net. We have at most one guy around the net when our D is taking a shot from the point. Other teams, all three forwards.

 

We dominate for 5 mins but we are no where around the net, we are around the boards. When the shot finally comes from the outside, the goalie has an easy save, rinse repeat against a set of fresh legs.


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#35 CarterforPresident

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:50 AM

Where do most high scoring teams score their goals? Short: Around the net. We have at most one guy around the net when our D is taking a shot from the point. Other teams, all three forwards.

 

We dominate for 5 mins but we are no where around the net, we are around the boards. When the shot finally comes from the outside, the goalie has an easy save, rinse repeat against a set of fresh legs.

I see so many times that if we had a dude on the side of the net it would have been a easy goal, yet i watch other games they always get those. Why don't we freaking do that


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#36 Triumph

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:51 AM

The argument that teams could key on the A-line with Mogilny gone is utter hokum.  Elias-Arnott-Sykora were never repeating that season even if you added another Mogilny to the team.


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#37 '7'

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:04 AM

It's not about repeating 2000-2001, it's about not cutting the legs out from under them. They would have a better 01-02 with a Mogilny on the 2nd line

 

I could easily see the Devils in the finals in 02 with Mogilny. Carolina, Toronto, and Montreal weren't scaring anybody. The Devils didn't lose to Toronto all season


Edited by '7', 09 April 2013 - 09:06 AM.

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#38 redruM

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:18 AM

The Devils don't control the length of the season.  As it is 48 games and not 82 games, they'll probably miss the playoffs - hockey-reference's forecast has NJ at 22.6% to make the playoffs, Sportsclubstats at 19.0%.  

 

So I decided I'd go through and make a list of things that, had they gone slightly otherwise, NJ would be at least 50% to make the playoffs.  I'll use stats.hockeyanalysis.com to check out the numbers, using the basic standard of 5 goals = 1 win.

 

The Devils have shot 6.4% at 5v5 even strength - NHL average this year looks to be about 8.1%.  Had they shot 8.1%, they would have had 13 more 5v5 goals or at least 2 more wins.

 

The Devils have shot 10.5% on their 5v4 power play - NHL average this year looks to be about 12.6%.  Had they shot 12.6%, they'd have 3 more goals, or 1 more point.

 

The Devils' goalies have stopped 83.7% of shots on their penalty kill.  Had they stopped the NHL average of 87.4%, the Devils would have allowed about 5 fewer goals on their penalty kill, or about one win.

 

The Devils are 2 and 7 in shootouts.  If they were 4-5, they'd have 2 more points.

 

The Devils are 1 and 3 in overtime - if they were 2-2, they'd have one more point.

 

Had all of these things happened - and all these things mean just being average, they don't even have to go over the average (I suppose we can dial back NJ's shorthanded goals by a bit too, docking them a full win) the Devils would have 8 more points and would currently be in 5th place in the East, comfortably in a playoff spot.

 

All of this is a way of saying that if this were an 82 game season, this would likely be a blip.  The goalies aren't playing particularly well, they can't win a shootout, but they're playing excellent hockey.  Of course the Devils would have made the playoffs with Zach Parise and this set of circumstances - but the way the team is playing this year is giving me plenty of hope for the team without him.

tri, I'm true beleiver that over the course of a season a team is what it is..  half the teams in the NHL could do the if we did this things would have been better, I disagree.  You are what you are, and the Devils are OLD, very old in NHL terms, and an 82 game season might have been much worse on this team.  LL needs to restock with young fast legs, Speed kills, and the devils are lacking in that dept. 


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#39 Devils731

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:27 AM

tri, I'm true beleiver that over the course of a season a team is what it is..  half the teams in the NHL could do the if we did this things would have been better, I disagree.  You are what you are, and the Devils are OLD, very old in NHL terms, and an 82 game season might have been much worse on this team.  LL needs to restock with young fast legs, Speed kills, and the devils are lacking in that dept. 

 

A team where every player was 30 would be the oldest team in the league, but would you really be concerned about that team being old in the current season or the next season?


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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:44 AM

Where do most high scoring teams score their goals? Short: Around the net. We have at most one guy around the net when our D is taking a shot from the point. Other teams, all three forwards.
 
We dominate for 5 mins but we are no where around the net, we are around the boards. When the shot finally comes from the outside, the goalie has an easy save, rinse repeat against a set of fresh legs.

couldnt agree more with this.. i find myself saying the exact same thing several times a game, when they are taking shots from the point and the sides there should be more then one person in front of the net grinding looking for a rebound
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