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Elias about Lou's free agents approach


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#161 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:19 PM

lol come on. "Lou wants players that want to be here" are you gonna sing kumbaya next?

it's a business and you can't let go your assets just cause "oh well he didnt want to be here" thats absolutely ridiculous. You have to make them want to stay and the way he's handling things is certainly not the way to do it. I know Lou is that way but it's a dumb way to deal with stuff.


He does want players that want to be Devils. He's said it, and he's gotten rid of players who want out. Lou doesn't build a team by just looking for stats. He wants certain players. That's why he doesn't 'just sign Semin' or any other of those oversimplified ideas.

I feel that throwing contracts around too early is a dumb way to deal with it. Elias will be 37, Clarkson has plummeted to earth, and Parise was coming off of a knee injury that cost him a season and he was looking for a huge decade long contract. It's not as black and white as you make it. There's millions of dollars involved.

Lou has had his job a long time because he doesn't make knee jerk decisions. He's very calm and calculated. He more than anyone else runs it as a business. It would seem that Elias, who has been in the organization nearly 20 years, is the one not treating it like a business. Looks like he's panicking about getting a contract a little.
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#162 NJDevs4978

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:24 PM

I seriously doubt Elias is 'panicking'.  He'll get fair market value in the offseason.  People are really overselling how much Elias's slump is going to affect his market value, he's Patrik Elias - one year removed from a great season.  And 31 points with a +6 in 41 games is hardly a bad year.  That's a 60-point full season.  Someone with cap space will throw around top dollar for the most proven UFA on the market.  Freaking Shane Doan got a 4-30 offer last offseason.

 

Maybe as someone else pointed out there's a little bit of jealousy that Zajac did get the deal before FA and he's underperformed for the second time in three seasons (both without Parise).  Or Elias just doesn't want to be tempted by other offers the way he was last time.  Or his idiot agent is in his ear too much...that's my biggest worry vis-a-vis Elias re-signing.

 

 


look - elias is my favorite devil ever but to think that he stayed on his last contract out of loyalty is missing the point. He got offered 7/42 from NJ. He got offered 6/42 from the Rangers. The Devils gave him the NMC that the Rangers wouldn't. He stayed.

 

when his career is over in 3-4 years, he'll go back to Czech. This is not someone who will be in the US for years after retirement. i think that it means something to be in NJ for his entire career and that's absolutely his preference. i don't expect him to get more than a 2 year offer from other teams but he most certainly will get those.

 

in the end, i think lou gives him 3/15 and he stays.

 

I dunno, I think he's too prideful for a paycut given he's still at a relatively high level.  What'll probably wind up happening is Lou offers him two years, Elias says he wants three and gets it through FA and Lou has to match.  Likely at best a 3/18, and the outside offers'll probably be higher than that.  Just like what happened last offseason with Marty/Salvador/Moose.  


Edited by NJDevs4978, 13 April 2013 - 05:43 PM.

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#163 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:01 PM

I seriously doubt Elias is 'panicking'.  He'll get fair market value in the offseason.  People are really overselling how much Elias's slump is going to affect his market value, he's Patrik Elias - one year removed from a great season.  And 31 points with a +6 in 41 games is hardly a bad year.  That's a 60-point full season.  Someone with cap space will throw around top dollar for the most proven UFA on the market.  Freaking Shane Doan got a 4-30 offer last offseason.

 

Maybe as someone else pointed out there's a little bit of jealousy that Zajac did get the deal before FA and he's underperformed for the second time in three seasons (both without Parise).  Or Elias just doesn't want to be tempted by other offers the way he was last time.  Or his idiot agent is in his ear too much...that's my biggest worry vis-a-vis Elias re-signing.

 

 


 

I dunno, I think he's too prideful for a paycut given he's still at a relatively high level.  What'll probably wind up happening is Lou offers him two years, Elias says he wants three and gets it through FA and Lou has to match.  Likely at best a 3/18, and the outside offers'll probably be higher than that.  Just like what happened last offseason with Marty/Salvador/Moose.  

 

Maybe panicking isn't the right word. Politicking? Trying to create some pressure? He's been around forever. He knows the strategy and he knows he won't be able to change it. He's making a little noise.


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#164 NJDevs4978

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:07 PM

Maybe panicking isn't the right word. Politicking? Trying to create some pressure? He's been around forever. He knows the strategy and he knows he won't be able to change it. He's making a little noise.

 

That I'll buy.  Especially given who his agent is.


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-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
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#165 ATLL765

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:58 AM

Loyalty is where the passion comes from.  Talent alone doesn't get you to where need to go.  Take life in war for the best example.  If you don't give a sh!t about the guy next to you eventually you both die.  Dysfunction leads to calamity.  The Devils are good at covering up dysfunction.  Check that, Lou is good at covering up dysfunction. (no twitter)  Before this season started there were signs that Elias wasn't thrilled with everything in Devilland. It's not going to be a huge shocker if he leaves.

It can't just be loyalty though. Loyalty muddles the mind. It makes you want to do things for people you wouldn't otherwise do. If there's no loyalty from Lou, Sal doesn't get a contract this season. That's a positive. And don't fight just for the guy next to you because you're loyal, he's also got a gun and two is better than one.

This is also more of an overall life philosophy than just what I apply to hockey, but I still stand by it. Loyalty is a detriment.


Edited by ATLL765, 14 April 2013 - 08:59 AM.

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#166 capo

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 09:24 AM

It can't just be loyalty though. Loyalty muddles the mind. It makes you want to do things for people you wouldn't otherwise do. If there's no loyalty from Lou, Sal doesn't get a contract this season. That's a positive. And don't fight just for the guy next to you because you're loyal, he's also got a gun and two is better than one.

This is also more of an overall life philosophy than just what I apply to hockey, but I still stand by it. Loyalty is a detriment.

If you don't practice loyalty in some regard it will come back and bite you.  You should always take care of those who take care of you. If management doesn't take care of it's players you're not going to get the ones you want to come and play for you.  Perhaps, there is some of that going around already and that's why we have some of these bad contracts?


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#167 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:15 AM

If you don't practice loyalty in some regard it will come back and bite you.  You should always take care of those who take care of you. If management doesn't take care of it's players you're not going to get the ones you want to come and play for you.  Perhaps, there is some of that going around already and that's why we have some of these bad contracts?

 

Yeah you don't get Andy Greene taking less money to re-sign with the Devils or Gionta/Carter/Bernier coming back on the cheap before testing UFA without the 'other' side of loyalty fans always harp on (the bad contracts to guys who've proven themselves here).  Not to mention Marty himself taking less money for years and years.


Edited by NJDevs4978, 14 April 2013 - 10:16 AM.

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-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#168 ATLL765

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:17 AM

If you don't practice loyalty in some regard it will come back and bite you.  You should always take care of those who take care of you. If management doesn't take care of it's players you're not going to get the ones you want to come and play for you.  Perhaps, there is some of that going around already and that's why we have some of these bad contracts?

There's a difference between not being loyal and being a dick. The idea is that you don't compromise the greater good for the sake of one, just due to loyalty. You do not hamper the team just to be loyal to a player, see: Sal's contract, Pando's last contract.

Those are mistakes due to loyalty that had Lou just told them to screw, we'd be better off. I'm not saying the team shouldn't treat players well, I'm just saying when it comes down to being loyal to one over bettering the team, that's where I draw the line.

A real life example is your best friend asks you to do help him cover up something he did, that you are opposed to due to whatever reasons, do you help him and compromise yourself? Or tell him no and compromise your loyalty? This is my question here.

Clarkson asks for $6M because he was underpaid last year, do you give it to him out of loyalty? fvck no.


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#169 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:23 AM

How is Sal's contract hampering the team?  People make too much about the contract (especially in a year where we're at least $11 million under the celing), if anything it's the fact he was given the C that's hampering the team.  He's making $3.1 million on a $70 million cap, that's 'less' than 1/20 of this year's cap.  That's even slightly less than 1/20 of next year's cap.

 

Pando's contract was far worse if only because Lou didn't 'need' to give it to him, and we were a cap team at the time so we needed to buy out Pando's deal just to get under the summer cap during the Kovy/Volch/Tallinder FA year.  Other teams were willing to give the same deal to Sal in FA.  People act like Lou vastly overpaid, he didn't overpay given the market.  If that was a loyalty contract, what was other teams' similar offer, mass stupidity?


Edited by NJDevs4978, 14 April 2013 - 10:32 AM.

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"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#170 DH26

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:58 AM

How is Sal's contract hampering the team?  People make too much about the contract (especially in a year where we're at least $11 million under the celing), if anything it's the fact he was given the C that's hampering the team.  He's making $3.1 million on a $70 million cap, that's 'less' than 1/20 of this year's cap.  That's even slightly less than 1/20 of next year's cap.

 

Pando's contract was far worse if only because Lou didn't 'need' to give it to him, and we were a cap team at the time so we needed to buy out Pando's deal just to get under the summer cap during the Kovy/Volch/Tallinder FA year.  Other teams were willing to give the same deal to Sal in FA.  People act like Lou vastly overpaid, he didn't overpay given the market.  If that was a loyalty contract, what was other teams' similar offer, mass stupidity?

 

It's hampering the team if they have an internal cap which they probably do. If he was worth 3.1m fine but he's worth about 500K 


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#171 sundstrom

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:01 AM

How is Sal's contract hampering the team?  People make too much about the contract (especially in a year where we're at least $11 million under the celing), if anything it's the fact he was given the C that's hampering the team.  He's making $3.1 million on a $70 million cap, that's 'less' than 1/20 of this year's cap.  That's even slightly less than 1/20 of next year's cap.

 

Pando's contract was far worse if only because Lou didn't 'need' to give it to him, and we were a cap team at the time so we needed to buy out Pando's deal just to get under the summer cap during the Kovy/Volch/Tallinder FA year.  Other teams were willing to give the same deal to Sal in FA.  People act like Lou vastly overpaid, he didn't overpay given the market.  If that was a loyalty contract, what was other teams' similar offer, mass stupidity?

 

1) they DO have an internal cap as what noted above.

2) by giving him 3 years and clogging the d roster, it creates a blockage for ascension by better players.


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#172 ATLL765

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:20 AM

How is Sal's contract hampering the team?  People make too much about the contract (especially in a year where we're at least $11 million under the celing), if anything it's the fact he was given the C that's hampering the team.  He's making $3.1 million on a $70 million cap, that's 'less' than 1/20 of this year's cap.  That's even slightly less than 1/20 of next year's cap.

 

Pando's contract was far worse if only because Lou didn't 'need' to give it to him, and we were a cap team at the time so we needed to buy out Pando's deal just to get under the summer cap during the Kovy/Volch/Tallinder FA year.  Other teams were willing to give the same deal to Sal in FA.  People act like Lou vastly overpaid, he didn't overpay given the market.  If that was a loyalty contract, what was other teams' similar offer, mass stupidity?

If I jump off a bridge, will you too, since it must be a good idea, I'm doing, right?

Just because other teams are stupid, doesn't excuse stupidity.


Edited by ATLL765, 14 April 2013 - 11:20 AM.

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#173 halfsharkalligatorhalfman

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:21 PM

I hope Elias stays in Jersey.  Given Lou's track record of overpaying veteran players at the tail end of their careers, I'd be shocked if it didn't happen.

 

Elias wants job security and is complaining that Lou didn't offer him a contract at the peak of his performance this season like other GMs often do with their own players.  He's just venting.  That lack of job security is part of the frustration that comes with being an NHL hockey player. I don't read anything into it.


Edited by halfsharkalligatorhalfman, 14 April 2013 - 12:21 PM.

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#174 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:30 PM

1) they DO have an internal cap as what noted above.
2) by giving him 3 years and clogging the d roster, it creates a blockage for ascension by better players.


How on earth do we know if they have an internal cap or what it is? They supposedly had a reasonable offer to Zach. There was literally nothing else to spend it on once Zach left other than Semin, who few teams wanted. They added about a couple million in payroll during the season.

And yes the roster spot Sal takes up is a problem but he doesn't even have the worst defensive contract on the team. They could have dealt another d-man if they wanted to but no, Lou wanted to roll with eight.
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-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#175 ATLL765

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:32 PM

How on earth do we know if they have an internal cap or what it is? They supposedly had a reasonable offer to Zach. There was literally nothing else to spend it on once Zach left other than Semin, who few teams wanted. They added about a couple million in payroll during the season.

And yes the roster spot Sal takes up is a problem but he doesn't even have the worst defensive contract on the team. They could have dealt another d-man if they wanted to but no, Lou wanted to roll with eight.

You used some terrible logic there. We don't know if they have an internal cap, but you go on to tell us they could have dealt a d-man? Were you on the phones? Did you hear the offers? Oh, you didn't. How interesting.

If I was any other team, the only two people on the D that I want and think I can get are Fayne and Tallinder. I don't want Sal, Volch and it would appear Greene is our best D on a good contract, Larsson is untouchable, barring Pitt offering Crosby, and Zid gives us something none of our other D does. So, I don't see why we would have traded Sal or Volch for dirt, if anyone even offered that.


Edited by ATLL765, 14 April 2013 - 12:34 PM.

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#176 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:32 PM

It's hampering the team if they have an internal cap which they probably do. If he was worth 3.1m fine but he's worth about 500K


That's a slight exaggeration. He's still an NHL d-man. Monetary value is only relative to what the market will bear.
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The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#177 NJDevs4978

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:35 PM


You used some terrible logic there. We don't know if they have an internal cap, but you go on to tell us they could have dealt a d-man? Were you on the phones? Did you hear the offers? Oh, you didn't. How interesting.

It's common sense based on the market. Douglas Murray went for two two's. I refuse to believe Lou couldn't have gotten a mid-round pick for Tallinder. They could have absolutely traded Fayne, who they've been jerking around all year anyway. That's without even mentioning Greene, Larsson, Zidlicky and Harrold who you could trade but it wouldn't make much sense to do so, for different reasons.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 14 April 2013 - 12:39 PM.

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"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#178 ATLL765

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:45 PM

It's common sense based on the market. Douglas Murray went for two two's. I refuse to believe Lou couldn't have gotten a mid-round pick for Tallinder. They could have absolutely traded Fayne, who they've been jerking around all year anyway. That's without even mentioning Greene, Larsson, Zidlicky and Harrold who you could trade but it wouldn't make much sense to do so, for different reasons.

I don't care about any of it unless you felt we were getting a 2nd or better for them, with all these guys having time remaining on their contracts, it made them less appealing than some other options.If Lou can wait out the market and use patience to increase returns, that's the best way forward with these assets.


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#179 95Crash

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:50 PM

I hope Elias stays in Jersey.  Given Lou's track record of overpaying veteran players at the tail end of their careers, I'd be shocked if it didn't happen.

 

Elias wants job security and is complaining that Lou didn't offer him a contract at the peak of his performance this season like other GMs often do with their own players.  He's just venting.  That lack of job security is part of the frustration that comes with being an NHL hockey player. I don't read anything into it.

 

I pretty much feel the same way.

 

Elias is human. He is aloud to vent a little.

 

Sure he has been around here longer than everyone but Marty and knows how Lou operates. But that doesn't mean he has to like it.

 

I equate it to rock bands. How many whole bands stay together for their entire careers? Hardly any of them. Even the successful ones. In the course of a band's career, there is almost always a defection or firing based on salary, respect, personality clash etc. Even with some major band players.

 

Whether or not Patty stays, who knows. It's too early to guess. But the decision might not be as simple as some fans might think. A lot of things will factor into it.


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#180 Triumph

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:03 PM

The Pete Panics on this board don't recognize that besides Detroit (which is a very old team up front already), most teams that traditionally spend a bunch are going to have to be cutting salary, not adding it.  Elias will be getting offers if he makes it to July 5, but they won't likely be from great teams/great markets.


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