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#61 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:43 PM

Were you around here immediately after his signing?  He was the scapegoat, and his contract was 'horrible' for at least a few years.  Only recently, on this forum at least, has he become 'worth it' (probably because the cap has gone up substantially since he was signed),  In his defense, he was apparently supposed to be Gomez's replacement, which he never was.

 

There's no way he deserves the same money this time around, he's declined and is pretty much a big body who can work the boards (like many other Devils).

 

Been through this before, but Gomer and Zubes were both coming off 60-point seasons when they got here.  Zubrus was also coming off his two best offensive seasons (clearly buoyed by Ovechkin), totalling 117 points in 150 GP.  I think that led quite a few to think Zubrus would replace Gomez's offensive production, and since 6-year deals are usually reserved for star-type players (back then, anyway), I think some expected more out of Zubrus offensively than what was fair. 

 

Zubrus basically produced for the Devils at the same rate that he did before playing with Ovechkin...I think Lou thought (hoped) he was getting a 50-60 point per year player at a bargain.  The most pleasant surprise with Zubes was that he was healthier than should have been expected...all 82 regular-season games played in three out of the five years on his contract where that was possible, 79 GP in a fourth.  Overall he was pretty good for what he was paid. 


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#62 Triumph

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:43 PM

Were you around here immediately after his signing?  He was the scapegoat, and his contract was 'horrible' for at least a few years.  Only recently, on this forum at least, has he become 'worth it' (probably because the cap has gone up substantially since he was signed),  In his defense, he was apparently supposed to be Gomez's replacement, which he never was.

 

There's no way he deserves the same money this time around, he's declined and is pretty much a big body who can work the boards (like many other Devils).

 

You can't replace a player like Scott Gomez in free agency unless you're incredibly lucky.  Brent Sutter had no clue how to use Zubrus - it wasn't until he left that he started to flourish.  I think a third line of Zubrus-Josefson-Clarkson could be quite good - wouldn't stay together long, injuries and so forth, but it'd be a hard line to play against.


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#63 sundstrom

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:43 PM

It's not a debate though. You have NO idea whether Lou waits until 2 seconds before FA to talk to his players, we DO, however, know that he has talked to them before that and he's managed to not really lose THAT many big names that went to UFA. People here whine about losing this guy, that guy, but it's bullsh!t. Who did we lose? Niedermayer, Parise, Rafalski, maybe you throw Paul Martin in there in the past 10 years? Who of them did we really think we were keeping? Niedermayer wasn't staying, I'm glad we didn't match MIN's contract and Rafalski and Paul Martin were guys we were willing to give up because of the price they would have cost to keep them. I don't see this Lou lost players because he doesn't talk to players before June 30th. I'd love to hear some examples though....

 

People bring up lou letting UFAs go that were good before they left and they always reference 5-7 guys:

 

mogilny was the first when he went to toronto. i don't recall what has come out since that. I know everyone wanted mogilny to be retained and i think there was mutual interest there but the leafs offer was higher than lou wanted to go and, it turned out to be the right decision.

 

holik was not signing with the devils - he had decided that out of spite after his sour arbitration hearing the year before. HOI can speak to this a little more, but in a book called Money Players, that looked at UFAs in Hockey History, there was a specific chapter on Holik where he knew the Rangers wanted him and he demanded the ludicrous contract he got even though the Rangers didn't want to give him that much.

 

neidermayer left to play with his brother. lou did all that was possible to keep him between trying to trade for Rob earlier in his career and then offering the max contract. no amount of earlier negotiations were going to change anything.

 

gomez might have signed for less than he got as a UFA a season before but lou chose not to do that. once that ship sailed, gomez was going to the highest bidder and lou is never the highest bidder in these type of negotiations (that's not to say that he's never the highest bidder period - he was absolutely on volchenkov, tallinder and zubrus. kovalchuk was a JVB signing).

 

martin had enough of NJ - lou negotiated with him before UFA and martin has essentially said as much.

 

parise's adventures have been discussed ad nauseum. you could say that he could've signed him to a rich deal that just wasn't as rich as minny's the previous two summers but i think the ownership financial situation and parise's knee injury conspired to make that not happen.

 

which leaves rafalski. this is the ONE signing where I question how lou handled it from what we know. everyone simply assumed (media, rafalski, etc) that he would re-sign with the devils. it was in print everywhere. rafalski said it was where he wanted to stay and all the rest. again, go back and look at the board - it was just 100% assumed he'd stay and it was a question of whether it would be 4/16 or reach to 5/25 and people seeing who the devils might have to get rid of to fit that in. but then he got to UFA and detroit blew them away with a 5/30 deal that nobody could believe and like that he was gone. that's the one where i think lou totally misjudged the market and tried to low ball without the facts.

 

 

 

You can't replace a player like Scott Gomez in free agency unless you're incredibly lucky.  Brent Sutter had no clue how to use Zubrus - it wasn't until he left that he started to flourish.  I think a third line of Zubrus-Josefson-Clarkson could be quite good - wouldn't stay together long, injuries and so forth, but it'd be a hard line to play against.

 

if clarkson is retained, it's going to be at least 5/25 and that kind of salary doesn't play "3rd line". now the devils don't quite work that way in that their 3rd line usually gets 14m of ES time and clarkson will get 2+ minutes of PP time a game but if you have that, you're left with theoretical top two lines of:

 

henrique-loktinov-kovalchuk

elias-zajac-xxxxx

 

now, clarkson would seem to me to be the 2nd line RW and henrique is w/ JJ and Zubrus but it still means the devils need another top 6 winger.


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#64 SMantzas

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:03 PM

Nice post, Sundstrom. I agree that if you're paying Clarkson ~5 million, it doesn't look good to throw him on the third line. However, we all know Clarkson is a unique player and I think he's better suited on "his own" line if that makes sense. Zajac and Elias are two of our best and most creative offensive players. While Clarkson does a good job getting the puck to the net, he isn't the best at involving his linemates. Enter Josefson, who has good vision and doesn't need the puck to be effective, and Zubrus, a guy who can create space for Clarkson. 


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#65 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:45 PM

People bring up lou letting UFAs go that were good before they left and they always reference 5-7 guys:

 


 

which leaves rafalski. this is the ONE signing where I question how lou handled it from what we know. everyone simply assumed (media, rafalski, etc) that he would re-sign with the devils. it was in print everywhere. rafalski said it was where he wanted to stay and all the rest. again, go back and look at the board - it was just 100% assumed he'd stay and it was a question of whether it would be 4/16 or reach to 5/25 and people seeing who the devils might have to get rid of to fit that in. but then he got to UFA and detroit blew them away with a 5/30 deal that nobody could believe and like that he was gone. that's the one where i think lou totally misjudged the market and tried to low ball without the facts.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a situation where Schneider left Detroit unexpectedly that summer, leading them to having more money and more need for Rafalski?


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#66 vadvlfan

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:07 AM

I think Lou and staff put a ceiling on what they feel they should pay for a 3rd line player, just like they did with Gionta/Martin. None of us here though Martin was worth 5 mil. and I still don't. I see
occasional good play from him, and also see how many times he craps the bed. He's no Dan Girardi.

I just wish I understood Lou's obsession with "energy" guys only to buy them out (Andrew Peters/Eric forgot his name)
I think Deboers thinks to himself, Lou, you're sh>tting me. you want me to play this guy?
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#67 Triumph

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:17 AM

Re:  Clarkson - I have a fantasy about the Devils trading Henrique for a RW (for Drew Stafford and a 2nd?  I dunno doesn't make a ton of sense for Buffalo) and signing Clarke MacArthur, giving them lines of:

 

Elias-Zajac-Stafford

MacArthur-Loktionov-Kovalchuk

Zubrus-Josefson-Clarkson

Carter-Gionta-Bernier

 

but it's probably a pipe dream.  Obviously with injuries Clarkson would move up.


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#68 2ELIAS6

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:31 AM

Ah I don't want to see henrique go nor do i think they'll trade him. He went dry on us the second half of the season but he will bounce back.. Have to find others for him to be on a line with to produce better chemistry with.
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#69 SMantzas

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:56 AM

Re:  Clarkson - I have a fantasy about the Devils trading Henrique for a RW (for Drew Stafford and a 2nd?  I dunno doesn't make a ton of sense for Buffalo) and signing Clarke MacArthur, giving them lines of:

 

Elias-Zajac-Stafford

MacArthur-Loktionov-Kovalchuk

Zubrus-Josefson-Clarkson

Carter-Gionta-Bernier

 

but it's probably a pipe dream.  Obviously with injuries Clarkson would move up.

Wait, what!? Stafford is way more expensive than Henrique and I'm not sure he's better. You're going to have control over AH for 4 more years and he can surpass Stafford's production in the right situation.

 

Edit- I didn't realize Stafford shot 5% this year. He'll fit right in


Edited by SMantzas, 11 May 2013 - 10:56 AM.

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#70 coldply123

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:34 AM

Re:  Clarkson - I have a fantasy about the Devils trading Henrique for a RW (for Drew Stafford and a 2nd?  I dunno doesn't make a ton of sense for Buffalo) and signing Clarke MacArthur, giving them lines of:

 

Elias-Zajac-Stafford

MacArthur-Loktionov-Kovalchuk

Zubrus-Josefson-Clarkson

Carter-Gionta-Bernier

 

but it's probably a pipe dream.  Obviously with injuries Clarkson would move up.

 

I actually like Macarthur and it sounds though like Toronto isn't considering him to be a high priority and may go after Clarkson.  If Toronto goes out to sign Clarkson and overpays, I'd be fine with simply subbing in MacArthur at a much cheaper price than Clarkson would cost.  I think we win that one in all honesty, but we'd still need another top forward.

 

Not sure I'd do Henrique for Stafford.  I think Stafford is a real risky bet.  He looked brutal this year and most of last year too.   Sabres fans are really down on him.  He is signed for two more years.  Plus I don't know why, but I see Stafford as bolting to go join Parise when his current deal is up.  He's from up there (Minny/Wisc) and is friends with both Suter/Parise.


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#71 Triumph

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:51 AM

I don't think i'd do Henrique for Stafford either but it's the kind of deal I'd want to do.  I like Henrique, he's the kind of player every team likes to have, and I'd like to trade him into something better suited for this team.  I'd trade him for a healthy Versteeg, for instance.  I'd trade him in a deal for Blake Wheeler.  I'm just blue-skying here and obviously it depends on the contract status of the player in question.

 

I know Dreger said Toronto is real interested in Clarkson but I don't really see the spot for him.  They've got JVR, Kessel, Lupul, Kulemin, etc. at wing - I dunno, I guess he fits in there, but it seems like a silly thing to go after for Toronto.


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#72 coldply123

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:04 PM

I don't think i'd do Henrique for Stafford either but it's the kind of deal I'd want to do.  I like Henrique, he's the kind of player every team likes to have, and I'd like to trade him into something better suited for this team.  I'd trade him for a healthy Versteeg, for instance.  I'd trade him in a deal for Blake Wheeler.  I'm just blue-skying here and obviously it depends on the contract status of the player in question.

 

I know Dreger said Toronto is real interested in Clarkson but I don't really see the spot for him.  They've got JVR, Kessel, Lupul, Kulemin, etc. at wing - I dunno, I guess he fits in there, but it seems like a silly thing to go after for Toronto.

 

Yeah, I agree on the latter.  I don't know or see where Toronto's interest is coming from, but Dreger is very keyed into the TOR front office, so my assumption is this wasn't just Clarkson's agent trying to boost the market and there probably is something beyond the smoke there.  I have trouble thinking of Clarkson's market more than just a couple teams though, especially if he's looking for the figures he's rumored to think he's worth.  The teams with an abundance of cap room aren't teams that would seem to me to be too interested in dumping a ridiculous contract out there on him considering they aren't really close to contention.  I suppose Columbus could be a possibility, although I really doubt that.

 

I'm not opposed to dealing Henrique in the type of scenario you proposed where we get another top line forward that might fit better.  Unfortunately, Versteeg suffered a pretty significant injury and Wheeler seems to be a guy the Jets want to build around and keep.  But that kind of deal you're tossing out to me is fair for the most part.


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#73 sundstrom

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:15 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a situation where Schneider left Detroit unexpectedly that summer, leading them to having more money and more need for Rafalski?

 

i think that did have something to do with it but remember how low the cap was at that time - rafalski was one of the top 3 or 4 highest paid dmen in hockey with that deal.


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#74 Pepperkorn

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:33 AM

Neidermayer hurt the team leaving. Parise hurt the team leaving. Holik hurt the team leaving. Gomez hurt the team leaving. Lemieux hurt the team leaving.

 

Neidermayer helped himself leaving.

 

Martin helped the team leaving. 

 

Gionta - mutually beneficial exit.  Rafalski mutually beneficial exit. Mogilny mutually beneficial exit. - These guys were doing NOTHING on the team except gettign frustrated and unhappy and there was no way out of that for any of them. Gionta was the cleanest exit because he did no harm at any time. Rafalski was sad because nothing declined for either side - Just with Stevens gone his role was gone and he couldn't fill the vacant roles to his own high standard.

 

Holik hurt himself leaving. Gomez hurt himself leaving. Lemieux hurt himself leaving.  Parise - the jury is still out on.

 

Holik still drives me nuts.  He resists appearing to have any kind of imagination and yet his is HUGE! He makes up his mind what's logical even though his intuition screams the wisest choice. And because he senses he's wrong he always couches what he says leaving room for a graceful backpedal.  He has stupid pride.  Stevens just has humiliating pride (isn't that a cute dichotomy? He's so adorable.  That goodness his mother trained him to be well at easy with his own adorableness) Holik has damaging pride.  So annoying to be witness to.

 

I'm bored.  Our team kind of bores me.  Everyone is so blah besides Clarkson.  I wish Lou liked vanilla just a tad less.  Thing of it is he doesn't like vanilla - he likes the idea of it.  but then when it's all dull and ineffective at the end of the day he's all wondering why he's so unsatisfied with this stupid vanilla he worked so hard to make.  He likes nuts sprinkled on top - but it's so hard to find good nuts! Real nuts - not candy coated crap they sell in the sundae section. No one wants to risk getting their nuts roasted is the thing - and those are the best kind!


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