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Summer 2013 UFA/RFA Thread


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#481 CarpathianForest

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:49 PM

I'm hoping we get a solid stay at home defender. Having Marty and Moose in net for a full season has disaster written all over it.


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#482 SterioDesign

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 05:05 PM

Sterio, I think the problem with you trying to play GM is that you do it from a place of fear...constantly afraid of the worst...eeeeeeeeeeeek OMG what are we going to do if this guy leaves and that guy leaves?  I think what you have to accept, painful as it may be, is that after a very long period of relevance, the Devils aren't as well-equipped to keep staying in the hunt on the fly.  You may have to endure a couple of years of true rebuilding.  Elias is not getting any younger, and if Clarkson is due to get silly money from some GM who can't control himself, so be it.  I'm not saying that I just let those walk without at least talking to them, but let's face it, the team wasn't all that great last season WITH those guys (I know Kovy being hurt didn't help, nor did the weak goaltending).  You can get to a place where you're re-signing guys to maintain a status quo that may not be so great to begin with.  Even if you re-sign Elias and Clarkson, then what?  Bringing them back for what could be significant dollars isn't going to answer the goalie question...after this season (which will probably not be great in goal to begin with), we have NO idea who's going to be net beyond. 

 

You can only delay the inevitable downturn for so long.  The Eliases, the Brodeurs...the faces of success we've grown accustomed to for so long...they're going to change, and very soon.  I don't accept that the Devils HAVE to keep Elias and HAVE to keep Clarkson, especially if someone out there wants to sign a guy like Clarkson to something overly long-term.  I don't necessarily want to watch a possibly declining Elias in 2014-15, or a consistently overpaid Clarkson, just because we're so afraid of the unknown.  The unknown doesn't have to be a negative by default (though it might be rough at first).           

 

It's not about being afraid of a situation it's about making decisions and adjust in order to get minimal "damages" on your team. 

 

ok so, lets take that "if clarkson is due to get silly money from some GM so be it" part. If Clarkson want 5+m and that Lou is simply not willing to pay that. Lou and pretty much everyone here can agree that he's a goner and i dont think no one here would want him at 5m+. its the "SO BE IT" part that i dont get from fans. why would you just accept that while it could have been resolved with a different approach? cause it really could have been.

 

Why do we have to just "accept" that Lou will only figure that out when its too late and cant get anything in return as a compensation of losing the guy?  I mean... if there was a slim chance he'd be retained anyway? He's putting himself in a situation where he doesnt have control other than offering a contract. Then you sign it or you're gone. 

 

of course it's not that easy and black on white but a super damn simple "talk" between 3 people mid season could have been a huge help. Then if Lou knows he would never pay that price for Clarkson. Then you have an option at the trade deadline. We we're a non-playoffs team. 

 

like seriously seems like no one here even like the guy that much, so at this point at this moment what would you prefer? have to overpay clarkson to a deal we all knew months ago would be too high or a trade deadline acquisition pick or prospect? Its as much a risk going for a run without a guy but at least you know you'll have a pick or prospects for a few years in compensation, than it is risking losing him for nothing for the next few years.

 

all that being said for all we know Clarkson might re-sign here tomorrow. But again, i'd HATE to lose Clarkson for nothing while he could have been figured out half season that we couldnt have never kept him anyway based on his demand.


Edited by SterioDesign, 24 June 2013 - 05:09 PM.

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#483 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 05:24 PM

It's not about being afraid of a situation it's about making decisions and adjust in order to get minimal "damages" on your team. 

 

ok so, lets take that "if clarkson is due to get silly money from some GM so be it" part. If Clarkson want 5+m and that Lou is simply not willing to pay that. Lou and pretty much everyone here can agree that he's a goner and i dont think no one here would want him at 5m+. its the "SO BE IT" part that i dont get from fans. why would you just accept that while it could have been resolved with a different approach? cause it really could have been.

 

Why do we have to just "accept" that Lou will only figure that out when its too late and cant get anything in return as a compensation of losing the guy?  I mean... if there was a slim chance he'd be retained anyway? He's putting himself in a situation where he doesnt have control other than offering a contract. Then you sign it or you're gone. 

 

of course it's not that easy and black on white but a super damn simple "talk" between 3 people mid season could have been a huge help. Then if Lou knows he would never pay that price for Clarkson. Then you have an option at the trade deadline. We we're a non-playoffs team. 

 

like seriously seems like no one here even like the guy that much, so at this point at this moment what would you prefer? have to overpay clarkson to a deal we all knew months ago would be too high or a trade deadline acquisition pick or prospect? Its as much a risk going for a run without a guy but at least you know you'll have a pick or prospects for a few years in compensation, than it is risking losing him for nothing for the next few years.

 

all that being said for all we know Clarkson might re-sign here tomorrow. But again, i'd HATE to lose Clarkson for nothing while he could have been figured out half season that we couldnt have never kept him anyway based on his demand.

 

So your approach is, essentially, to sit down every UFA mid-season, ask them if they want the contract that you are willing to offer, and if they don't accept it then or at least seem interested, they get traded? A team run like that would never make the playoffs. However, they'd have a ton of picks or prospects that they will then treat the same way.

 

How is this any better than the current approach, which is let the player play hockey, realize that they want to see their worth on the open market, and then let them make their decision? It doesn't matter if Lou offers Clarkson 4 million today or last year, if he (and most importantly, his agents) think he can get 5 million, they will see what free agency brings.

 

Why would any player in their right mind sign for less mid-season when they KNOW they can make more as a free agent?


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#484 Devilsfan118

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 06:07 PM

Newsflash: real life is not like the NHL video game franchise.  You can't ship off talent on the last years of their deal, get great prospects back, and still win the cup every year.


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#485 Triumph

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

ok so, lets take that "if clarkson is due to get silly money from some GM so be it" part. If Clarkson want 5+m and that Lou is simply not willing to pay that. Lou and pretty much everyone here can agree that he's a goner and i dont think no one here would want him at 5m+. its the "SO BE IT" part that i dont get from fans. why would you just accept that while it could have been resolved with a different approach? cause it really could have been.

 

We're speculating - we have no idea.  If you asked me, my opinion would be that Clarkson's preferences are Toronto, New Jersey and then everyone else.  I don't know in what order to put Toronto and New Jersey.

 

 

 

 

Why do we have to just "accept" that Lou will only figure that out when its too late and cant get anything in return as a compensation of losing the guy?  I mean... if there was a slim chance he'd be retained anyway? He's putting himself in a situation where he doesnt have control other than offering a contract. Then you sign it or you're gone.

 

You obsess over this.  The Islanders got one of the best returns ever, a 4th round pick.  Players' rights are not worth a lot.

 

 

 

of course it's not that easy and black on white but a super damn simple "talk" between 3 people mid season could have been a huge help. Then if Lou knows he would never pay that price for Clarkson. Then you have an option at the trade deadline. We we're a non-playoffs team.

 

The trade deadline was April 2, I believe.  The Devils were 15-12-9 at this point, with 39 points in 36 games (.542).  The 8th seed in the East went in with 56 points in 48 games (.583).  There was no way they should have been trading people away.

 

 

 

all that being said for all we know Clarkson might re-sign here tomorrow. But again, i'd HATE to lose Clarkson for nothing while he could have been figured out half season that we couldnt have never kept him anyway based on his demand.

 

Just like the Devils lost Elias and Langenbrunner and Oduya and Pandolfo and Salvador twice, and Greene and Hedberg and Brodeur and so on and so on.

 

EDIT:  This is my last post on free agency with Sterio, we now return to actual free agent discussion.


Edited by Triumph, 24 June 2013 - 06:17 PM.

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#486 SterioDesign

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:18 PM

So your approach is, essentially, to sit down every UFA mid-season, ask them if they want the contract that you are willing to offer, and if they don't accept it then or at least seem interested, they get traded? A team run like that would never make the playoffs. However, they'd have a ton of picks or prospects that they will then treat the same way.

How is this any better than the current approach, which is let the player play hockey, realize that they want to see their worth on the open market, and then let them make their decision? It doesn't matter if Lou offers Clarkson 4 million today or last year, if he (and most importantly, his agents) think he can get 5 million, they will see what free agency brings.

Why would any player in their right mind sign for less mid-season when they KNOW they can make more as a free agent?

You missed and didnt understand half of what i said again. Lets just put this to rest its useless

Edit: also yeah... Getzlaf and Perry are out of their mind and gosh did it ever hurt the ducks to sign them early... I pity them how bad it turned out. Or datsyuk and the wings... Geeeeee....

Edited by SterioDesign, 24 June 2013 - 10:18 PM.

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#487 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 12:22 AM

You missed and didnt understand half of what i said again. Lets just put this to rest its useless

Edit: also yeah... Getzlaf and Perry are out of their mind and gosh did it ever hurt the ducks to sign them early... I pity them how bad it turned out. Or datsyuk and the wings... Geeeeee....

 

Well apparently no one can understand your ingenuity, because half the people here are trying to explain that real life isn't NHL13. So they should have traded Getzlaf and Perry if they wanted to go to free agency? They got offered what they would get on the market, maybe even MORE than what they would get on the market. THAT's why they stayed!! Not because the GM kissed their asses at the right time. It's the almighty dollar. If Lou offered Clarkson 5 million right now or mid-season, he'd take it. But why pay that to a guy who barely makes the second line on a good team? Anaheim got caught in a bidding war with themselves. You sign Clarkson for too much, and anyone who plays better than him will want more. It's dangerous to overpay out of fear.  

 

And Datsyuk signing with the Wings? How does that have ANYTHING to do with the Devils situation? 1) There was never an inkling of doubt that Datsyuk would be with the Wings, 2) they have the money to throw around right now, and 3) he was already signed for 2013-14. It is a totally different situation than Clarkson, Elias, or Zubrus. 


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#488 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 05:55 AM

DD56, not debating this with SD anymore...I don't have anything against SD, but the pattern seems to repeat itself over and over again:

 

SD basically says a player heading towards UFA should be made an offer well before he goes UFA, and if he doesn't accept, he should be traded.  Doesn't matter what the return is or where the team is in the standings, what matters more than anything else is not getting caught getting nothing in return.  SD also comes off as though he thinks Lou is borderline clueless when it comes to handling the Devils' UFAs.   

 

Tri, you, myself and several others point out the faulty reasoning behind his overall logic, mostly that it comes off as extremely simplistic and hindsighted, and that it's either scenario A or scenario B and that's it, when we try to point out that there's more to this than he seems willing to acknowledge...such as the Devis often being in the thick of playoff races, etc. 

 

SD then accuses everyone of not understanding him (though everyone seems to have similar interpretations of what he's saying), but goes on to make points that really seem to come back to his same initial points.  

 

And round and round we go. 


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#489 SterioDesign

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 07:20 AM

DD56, not debating this with SD anymore...I don't have anything against SD, but the pattern seems to repeat itself over and over again:

 

SD basically says a player heading towards UFA should be made an offer well before he goes UFA, and if he doesn't accept, he should be traded.  Doesn't matter what the return is or where the team is in the standings, what matters more than anything else is not getting caught getting nothing in return.  SD also comes off as though he thinks Lou is borderline clueless when it comes to handling the Devils' UFAs.   

 

Tri, you, myself and several others point out the faulty reasoning behind his overall logic, mostly that it comes off as extremely simplistic and hindsighted, and that it's either scenario A or scenario B and that's it, when we try to point out that there's more to this than he seems willing to acknowledge...such as the Devis often being in the thick of playoff races, etc. 

 

SD then accuses everyone of not understanding him (though everyone seems to have similar interpretations of what he's saying), but goes on to make points that really seem to come back to his same initial points.  

 

And round and round we go. 

 

well here's the funny thing is... by saying "SD basically says a player heading towards UFA should be made an offer well before he goes UFA, and if he doesn't accept, he should be traded. " youre just proving my point of "SD then accuses everyone of not understanding him". how ironic is that? Cause thats NOT what i'm saying. I even made a incredibly descriptive post in detail. yet you seem to have missed it. You want me to draw it to you or something maybe?

 

I'm gonna say it a last fvcking time cause i don't want people to believe that its what im saying. 

 

Never said that Lou should OFFER a contract to a player mid-season and if he doesnt accept to trade him. I repeat, thats not AT ALL what i meant. Want me to say it a 3rd time cause well? its like the 10th time im saying it and you guys keep on missing it. 3rd grade must have been harsh for some here.

 

ALL i said was that Lou should just get a preliminary talk with the agent and player during the season just to get a pulse and an idea of what the player is looking for in term of dollar and year, just a ball park thing to gauge things. NOT OFFERING A DAMN CONTRACT, i repeat once again, i never said that. Just get a sense of what the player has in mind. If player A has in mind getting 6m, he probably had that idea for awhile and if the GM wouldnt pay him 6m, well its pretty obvious that there's a risk there if both sides are not close. the GM doesnt even have to throw out numbers either. I repeat its just a simple talk to get a feel of the situation.

 

So like i said if player A wants 6m and that the GM knows damn well he'd never give him that. Well at least now he knows what he's against in that situation. And from that talk at least he knows that if he really want that player he'll have to risk dealing and maybe lose him for nothing during the summer OR (and for the love of god READ this part cause you guy keep on missing it) IF he knows the player's chances of being retained are slim or that he thinks a return for this guy would be worth it compared to risking overpaying or losing him for nothing. THEN at least he has all his options in front of him and he can really look at the pros and cons of trading him or keeping him for a run. THEN he can choose what he's doing. That way he has more control on his roster. Obviously some guys could still walk its not perfect, but its still a simple extra step who "could" make a difference, maybe not but it wouldnt be too much to ask.

 

now how is that not fair? Again that's what Shero is doing now with Letang, he's in talk to set a basic framework, not signing a contract now. So then he knows what he's against. He will have the decision at some point of trading him for a good return IF he think its a good move or he can keep him if he think its worth risking losing him for nothing after a run. (cause he'd know by then already that he want too much and that he would sign somewhere else, no surprise at all on that side). So then you may lose Letang and it fvcking sucks but instead of losing him for nothing you get something back who may compensate. Plus well Letang was terrible in the playoffs, you never know.

 

all im saying is that with Lou's way of refusing talking during the season he's putting himself in a situation of "handing a contract and hope the player sign or he's gone" and nothing else. Its not about looking back at what happened in the past either, its just about the way he's doing it.

 

so basically ALL im saying and im not saying Lou should do it 100% of the time or anything but for the love of God he should stop with the "Not talking during the season" in some cases, he's simply doing it out of stubbornness and SOMETIMES just a little talk COULD help the team, *COULD*, not always but if it has even a slight 10% of helping, why not doing it? its simple and free. Why cut options for yourself? Especially in a business type of situation.


Edited by SterioDesign, 25 June 2013 - 07:31 AM.

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#490 Devilsfan118

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 07:29 AM

ALL i said was that Lou should just get a preliminary talk with the agent and player during the season just to get a pulse and an idea of what the player is looking for in term of dollar and year, just a ball park thing to gauge things. NOT OFFERING A DAMN CONTRACT, i repeat once again, i never said that. Just get a sense of what the player has in mind. If player A has in mind getting 6m, he probably had that idea for awhile and if the GM wouldnt pay him 6m, well its pretty obvious that there's a risk there if both sides are not close. the GM doesnt even have to throw out numbers either. I repeat its just a simple talk to get a feel of the situation.

 

 

But who's to say that circumstances can't change between the trade deadline and free agency?  Again, it's all part of the gamble, but it's not as simple as you make it sound.  There are just about..a million variables at play here.

I mean, the trade deadline is usually what, the end of February?  That leaves four (4!) whole months before free agency starts.  A whole lot can change in 4 months time.  

Point is:  It's always a gamble.  You weigh the potential of losing the player against the chance of resigning him.  Lou obviously prefers not to sell, and to hold onto his players.  


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#491 SterioDesign

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 07:40 AM

But who's to say that circumstances can't change between the trade deadline and free agency?  Again, it's all part of the gamble, but it's not as simple as you make it sound.  There are just about..a million variables at play here.

I mean, the trade deadline is usually what, the end of February?  That leaves four (4!) whole months before free agency starts.  A whole lot can change in 4 months time.  

Point is:  It's always a gamble.  You weigh the potential of losing the player against the chance of resigning him.  Lou obviously prefers not to sell, and to hold onto his players.  

 

you're right but well seriously this subject is blown out of proportion and people jump on me for pointing it out but like i said all im saying i just dont like that Lou is cutting options for himself. Thats all. 

 

its a simple step and like i said it potentially COULD make a difference (maybe not of course, things can change in a few months like you said, but really, whats the harm of having that talk? ) and he refuse to do it just by sticking to his oldschool sturborn ways.


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#492 Chimaira_Devil_#9

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:03 AM

 

ALL i said was that Lou should just get a preliminary talk with the agent and player during the season just to get a pulse and an idea of what the player is looking for in term of dollar and year, just a ball park thing to gauge things. NOT OFFERING A DAMN CONTRACT, i repeat once again, i never said that. Just get a sense of what the player has in mind. If player A has in mind getting 6m, he probably had that idea for awhile and if the GM wouldnt pay him 6m, well its pretty obvious that there's a risk there if both sides are not close. the GM doesnt even have to throw out numbers either. I repeat its just a simple talk to get a feel of the situation.

 

So like i said if player A wants 6m and that the GM knows damn well he'd never give him that. Well at least now he knows what he's against in that situation.

 

 

I see what you are saying but your approach is way too simplistic and black and white.

 

For starters I am sure any player would probably fire his agent if they walked into negotiations, at any stage, sat down and told the GM they were negotiating with exactly what there player wanted right off the bat without seeing what the club had to say first.

 

It’s like a job interview, they ask you what your salary expectations are, you don’t just throw out what you want, you want to see what is on offer first then set it against that.

 

Lou will know what Clarkson is worth, and how much he will be willing to pay, regardless of what his agent says, a mid-season dialogue is nothing more than a needless distraction, especially if as you say, no contract should be offered and you are not going to ship anyone out based on that discussion.


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#493 SterioDesign

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:15 AM

I see what you are saying but your approach is way too simplistic and black and white.

 

 

For starters I am sure any player would probably fire his agent if they walked into negotiations, at any stage, sat down and told the GM they were negotiating with exactly what there player wanted right off the bat without seeing what the club had to say first.

 

 

It’s like a job interview, they ask you what your salary expectations are, you don’t just throw out what you want, you want to see what is on offer first then set it against that.

 

 

Lou will know what Clarkson is worth, and how much he will be willing to pay, regardless of what his agent says, a mid-season dialogue is nothing more than a needless distraction, especially if as you say, no contract should be offered and you are not going to ship anyone out based on that discussion.

 

My examples are black on white of course cause im writing them down but they are all "examples". Every situations is different of course. thats what i said too, you get a feel or a ball park of what the player might be seeking. Please guys stop taking all my examples word by word they are just thrown in the mix to put a context to what im saying.

 

Again all im saying is that a few extra meetings COULD help, maybe not but COULD. But we'll NEVER get the benefice of that since Lou will never do it. Thats all. I dont support him cutting opportunities for himself in negociations. Thats all and i think its fair. Its not about simplistic. Saying "im not talking contract at all during season cause its a distraction" THATS simplistic.

 

its really not me saying he should do this and this and this. Its just me saying he shouldnt cut opportunities for himself by sticking to his stubborn ideas that its distraction for a player to talk contract during the season, in certain situations (not all) it could help to do it, so why cut that option off just by stubbornness? I mean even Elias think the same way as i am, i cant be THAT wrong.


Edited by SterioDesign, 25 June 2013 - 08:23 AM.

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#494 Triumph

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:31 AM

So the actual buyouts should start rolling in Wednesday night - we already know Briere, Kaberle, Komisarek, in addition to Gomez and Redden.  I think Richards will stay put.  Keith Ballard will be bought out.  Steve Montador and Rostislav Olesz will be bought out.  Boston will probably buy someone out but hard to know who it is.  Philly and Bryzgalov is a tricky situation, but they've got to buy out Meszaros provided he isn't hurt.  After that it gets trickier, there aren't that many more obvious candidates.


Edited by Triumph, 25 June 2013 - 08:31 AM.

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#495 SterioDesign

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:35 AM

i dont know why i didnt know that but this year, free agents will be able to talk to other clubs and visit before free agency? when does that start? after the draft?


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#496 SterioDesign

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:48 AM

James Mirtle just reported: Teams that won’t be using buyouts: Flames, Blues Jackets and #devils


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#497 Triumph

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:57 AM

That's just reporting off what Gulitti reported a week ago.


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#498 DJ Eco

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 09:28 AM

Looking at the list of UFAs this offseason, it's a really underrated group of guys. There's a lot of real gritty players to be had this year: tons of skill, not too many flashy names, very Devils-friendly.


Edited by DJ Eco, 25 June 2013 - 09:29 AM.

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#499 ATLL765

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:17 AM

You missed and didnt understand half of what i said again. Lets just put this to rest its useless

Edit: also yeah... Getzlaf and Perry are out of their mind and gosh did it ever hurt the ducks to sign them early... I pity them how bad it turned out. Or datsyuk and the wings... Geeeeee....

Go ahead, ignore that we signed Zajac in your whining about how other teams do it better. You're right, we should trade Clarkson for a 6th rd pick in case we lost him for nothing because wooo, a 6th rd pick is soooo great. The chance of re-signing Clarky is worth WAYYYY more than a 6th rd pick.


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#500 ghdi

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:35 AM

i dont know why i didnt know that but this year, free agents will be able to talk to other clubs and visit before free agency? when does that start? after the draft?

 

Yes, it's called the "talking period". It starts a week before free agency begins (THIS Friday), but they have to stop talking 5 days before UFA opens (Sunday). Lou will know exactly what most of our UFA's are being offered and can go from there before UFA even opens. It's basically a much abbreviated version of the way the NBA does free agency, except they have like a month and are able to announce agreements. Its set up this way to get guys to stay where they are more than it is set up to encourage more movement like it was in the past. Lou will have 5 days to entice someone to stay knowing what other team's offers are or will know he needs a replacement. I guarantee you in those 2 days he'll be calling other guys to gauge their interest in coming to NJ.

 

That's one of the reason a lot of the fans who are flipping out about Lou "doing nothing" are pretty much batsh!t insane. Besides, it's not the worst thing in the world to go to market. If Lou comes out early next week after the draft is over and announces signings, most will look even dumber. These players have earned the right to see what they're worth, especially someone like Clarkson who will likely get a deal he wouldnt get if there were stars in this crop. IE Clarkson wouldnt be as popular a guy as he looks to be if Gezlaf and Perry were on the market. We keep far more than we lose if we want to keep that player in the first place.

 

Quit comparing the way the Devils do business to how other teams do business. We've always gone against the grain. Most fans would like to see the Devils sharing more information and more in the open regarding negotiations and plans, but thats not how it works with this club. No word doesn't mean no action.


Edited by ghdi, 25 June 2013 - 10:43 AM.

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