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Devils trade #9 pick in 2013 Draft to Vancouver for Cory Schneider


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#181 Triumph

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:34 AM

All who had bigger cap hits than Marty at around the same time Marty signed his deal:

 

Khabibulan; Luongo; Nabokov; Theodore; Turco.  And those are just the goalies that I could find on Capgeek, and wouldn't include players not in the league anymore that fizzled out. 

 

Marty's deal was great for the team.  End of story.  I know you have some kind of thing against him, but whatever.

 

How many of those deals went for 6 years and until the player was 40?  Khabibulin's deal was insane and the others were signed right in line with what Brodeur ended up with.  It's not like Brodeur was coming off a terrific year himself, either - that deal represented a large risk and took up a lot of the salary cap and it worked out about as well as could be hoped.


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#182 lucifer91

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:36 AM

Reaction video to the trade announcement:

 

 

 

 

I know I went nuts lol

 

Everytime Bettman is like a little bobblehead.  Its annoying how much his head moves


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#183 Daniel

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:42 AM

How many of those deals went for 6 years and until the player was 40?  Khabibulin's deal was insane and the others were signed right in line with what Brodeur ended up with.  It's not like Brodeur was coming off a terrific year himself, either - that deal represented a large risk and took up a lot of the salary cap and it worked out about as well as could be hoped.

 

 

His deal did not prevent the team from making any moves it otherwise would have.  Rafalski, Gomez, Gionta, and Niedermeyer were not going to stay anyway, notwithstanding whether you would have wanted some of them anway.

 

And then there are all of the goalies that signed afterwards for much larger cap hits.  Cam Ward comes to mind immediately. 


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#184 Triumph

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

His deal did not prevent the team from making any moves it otherwise would have.  Rafalski, Gomez, Gionta, and Niedermeyer were not going to stay anyway, notwithstanding whether you would have wanted some of them anway.

 

And then there are all of the goalies that signed afterwards for much larger cap hits.  Cam Ward comes to mind immediately. 

 

You mean the Cam Ward who is 13th in save percentage over the last 3 years (since his new contract went into effect)?  As opposed to Brodeur who is 50th?  If Brodeur had Ward's SV% he'd have given up 40 fewer goals over the last 3 years, that's worth 8 wins.

 

You don't know that Brodeur's deal didn't prevent the team from making any moves it otherwise would have.  That's not what I am trying to argue, either.


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#185 Devilsfan118

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

So since some seem inclined to exaggerate in the negative direction, I'll go in the opposite.

 

This could go down as one of the greatest trades in Devils history, if Schneider does become the Devils #1 for the foreseeable future.

 

I mean, I'm freakin psyched to watch some epic Schneider-Lundqvist duels in the coming years.  


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#186 '7'

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

Everytime Bettman is like a little bobblehead.  Its annoying how much his head moves

 

it's been rumored that he has Parkinsons


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#187 Daniel

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:52 AM

You mean the Cam Ward who is 13th in save percentage over the last 3 years (since his new contract went into effect)?  As opposed to Brodeur who is 50th?  If Brodeur had Ward's SV% he'd have given up 40 fewer goals over the last 3 years, that's worth 8 wins.

 

You don't know that Brodeur's deal didn't prevent the team from making any moves it otherwise would have.  That's not what I am trying to argue, either.

 

Or the Marty that actually, you know, won more games.

 

And wins above replacement in any sport is the most ridiculous stat that people are trying to come up with to get in on the next new thing.  It's an inherently unknowable number, and hence useless.

 

EDIT:  This is an off-topic discussion that's been beaten to death anyway.  I'll let you get the last word if you want.


Edited by Daniel, 01 July 2013 - 11:11 AM.

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#188 msweet

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:12 AM

it's been rumored that he has Parkinsons

Oh geez... my Mom died of that.. maybe we'll go a little easier on him


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#189 Pepperkorn

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:12 AM

Wow - we're such contrarians on this board - present company included.

 

Tri has been a big supporter of Marty on this team.  Even when he sucks Tri albeit concessionally points out that there's not much else out there that's been attainable for the Devils.  He's not bashing Marty he's just keeping it real as he does when people bash the team for keeping Marty as is.

 

I feel like we all shoudl understand how detail oriented Tri is and take his comments as they are intended.  Daniel you're not detail oriented as much as you are arguementative in lawyerly fashion.  You both feel the same way pretty much.

 

Daniel - I rule that there is NO way Marty can return to his former self and this was the best move to keep our goal strong as Marty transitions out.  Nothing better is possible.  So to use a page from your book, we know you HATE this deal but Marty's past performance in no way justifies NOT making this deal.  and in fact your hlding Marty up so high proves that goal tending not scoring makes the team.  This was the deal.  *gavel has been hit and the judge is leaving the court room.  All posts hereafter are just public self-gratification.

 

MonkeyGavel.gif


Edited by Pepperkorn, 01 July 2013 - 11:16 AM.

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#190 Pepperkorn

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:14 AM

Oh geez... my Mom died of that.. maybe we'll go a little easier on him

My husband did some research on it. It's one hell of a disease.  I was so proud because my husband ALMOST got a grant through the Michael J Fox foundation - and they don't give out money.  But almost doesn't pay the bills.  So depressing how many roads can't be followed in the search for cures to all diseases.

 

but I suspect ^7^ is being sarcastic.


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#191 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:17 AM

$5.2M was not a huge bargain in those days.  Brodeur won the Vezina in 2006-07 when the salary cap was $44M - a comparable goalie would be paid 7.59M in 2013-14 dollars and we know this coming year's cap is artificially low, so that number should likely be revised upwards a bit.  That still represents value, both given how much and how well Brodeur played, but it's not a steal.

 

In all, I think yeah the deal paid for itself, but let's stop cutting up years like that's a meaningful division - the end result was that Brodeur's numbers were not good on the final 2 years of the deal.  NJ paid for those bargain years in the later years.

 

I don't see why you can point out the later years but I can't point out the early ones.


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#192 Pepperkorn

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:19 AM



I don't see why you can point out the later years but I can't point out the early ones.

Touche.gif  Ahhh --  Touche!

 

this line of conversation can continue.. only Daniel has to put a sock on it :giggle:

 

(I'm totally on the side of Devil Dan FYI)


Edited by Pepperkorn, 01 July 2013 - 11:20 AM.

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#193 Triumph

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:24 AM

Or the Marty that actually, you know, won more games.

 

And wins above replacement in any sport is the most ridiculous stat that people are trying to come up with to get in on the next new thing.  It's an inherently unknowable number, and hence useless.

 

EDIT:  This is an off-topic discussion that's been beaten to death anyway.  I'll let you get the last word if you want.

 

hahaha.  You cite goalie wins, the most useless stat there is, then cite wins over replacement as a ridiculous stat (by misinterpreting what wins above replacement means)?  Remind me never to discuss anything about sports with you again.

 

I don't see why you can point out the later years but I can't point out the early ones.

 

I never said that.  I said the early years represent a bargain but not a large one, because the salary cap was lower.  I think the Vezina is generally a joke trophy but that Brodeur was probably the most valuable goalie in the league in 2006-07 and 2007-08.  In all, I think the deal evens out.

 

Anyway, like you said, dead horse.  Glad Schneider is in the fold.


Edited by Triumph, 01 July 2013 - 11:25 AM.

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#194 Daniel

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:26 AM

 

 

Daniel - I rule that there is NO way Marty can return to his former self and this was the best move to keep our goal strong as Marty transitions out.  Nothing better is possible.  So to use a page from your book, we know you HATE this deal but Marty's past performance in no way justifies NOT making this deal.  and in fact your hlding Marty up so high proves that goal tending not scoring makes the team.  This was the deal.  *gavel has been hit and the judge is leaving the court room.  All posts hereafter are just public self-gratification.

 

MonkeyGavel.gif

 

As I think I've said, I'm coming around to the Schneider deal.  I just hated the idea of not getting a potentially great offensive threat in Nischuskin, although YES, I realize he is not a sure thing.  As I said, Schneider will not score any goals for us, which is the biggest issue the team faces.  Hopefully Schneider is good enough to help us win a lot of 2-1 and 3-2 games, because you can't expect much more in the goal scoring department on a consistent basis.

 

His upcoming free agency also scares me.  I'll have to assume though that Lou would not have made this deal unless he plans on making an immediate effort to lock him long term as soon as the Devils are able to.  But we all know Lou can get a little quirky when it comes to that sort of thing.

 

And just to be clear about Marty, I definitely realize that his time has come.  He was pretty bad this year, although the Devils did get to the Stanley Cup finals last year, but lost to a superior team that the Devils would not have beaten even if they had Lundqvist.  And again, the team's biggest problem was lack of scoring, especially without Kovalchuk.  Save percentage, whatever, the Devils were good in the goals against department.  Whatever it comes down to though, what Marty was paid did not prevent the Devils from making another move that would have improved the team.


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#195 Devils731

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:29 AM

I just hated the idea of not getting a potentially great offensive threat in Nischuskin, although YES, I realize he is not a sure thing

 

 

Some of the pre draft rumor mongering I saw was that teams had a pretty big concern about Nich's personality after going through the interview process with him.  That would explain his drop.


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#196 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:31 AM

Or the Marty that actually, you know, won more games.

 

And wins above replacement in any sport is the most ridiculous stat that people are trying to come up with to get in on the next new thing.  It's an inherently unknowable number, and hence useless.

 

In fairness, wins aren't really the best way to judge goalies.  Goalies are always going to see their win totals boosted by being on a good team, and hurt by playing on a bad one.  Just ask Chico Resch.  His Islander and Rocky/Devil numbers were night-and-day...if he hadn't gotten traded to the Flyers, he probably retires with a losing record.  If you're playing on a flat-out sh!tty team, you're going to be hard-pressed to win much more than 15-20 games, and there's not a thing even the best goalie on the planet can do about it.  And though Marty won 42 regular season games and 15 playoff games in 2000-2001, he really wasn't that great that year.  .906 regular season save% and .897 playoff save%, and he looked much shakier overall that season than any other that I can remember, as far as his prime years go. 

 

Tri seems to be arguing that, with the exception of his current contract, Marty hasn't always represented good value, which I disagree with.  And we know how it can go with the big stars who get signed to the long-term deals when they're in the second half of their primes.  Tri is coming off like Marty should have been vintage Marty for all six years of that deal to be anything more than a begrudging success.  I don't know how anyone could have or should have expected anything more than what they got over the course of that contract...simple logic dictated that there was almost no chance Marty would be the same player by the end of the deal...geez, all things considered, 2012 was really not that bad at all...from 2/2 on he was about as good as could be expected.   

 

Think about it...how many of those deals become disasters before the contract is even a couple of years old?  With MANY seasons left to go? 


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 01 July 2013 - 11:33 AM.

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#197 '7'

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:34 AM

My husband did some research on it. It's one hell of a disease.  I was so proud because my husband ALMOST got a grant through the Michael J Fox foundation - and they don't give out money.  But almost doesn't pay the bills.  So depressing how many roads can't be followed in the search for cures to all diseases.

 

but I suspect ^7^ is being sarcastic.

 

I'm not...but it's just a rumor I've heard


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#198 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:36 AM

Touche.gif  Ahhh --  Touche!

 

this line of conversation can continue.. only Daniel has to put a sock on it :giggle:

 

(I'm totally on the side of Devil Dan FYI)

 

I didn't want to get it re-started!  :giggle:  I posted before I read the rest


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#199 MantaRay

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:41 AM

Marty has always represented a great value, probably the best of any goalies the past decade.  


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#200 Triumph

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:46 AM

In fairness, wins aren't really the best way to judge goalies.  Goalies are always going to see their win totals boosted by being on a good team, and hurt by playing on a bad one.  Just ask Chico Resch.  His Islander and Rocky/Devil numbers were night-and-day...if he hadn't gotten traded to the Flyers, he probably retires with a losing record.  If you're playing on a flat-out sh!tty team, you're going to be hard-pressed to win much more than 15-20 games, and there's not a thing even the best goalie on the planet can do about it.  And though Marty won 42 regular season games and 15 playoff games in 2000-2001, he really wasn't that great that year.  .906 regular season save% and .897 playoff save%, and he looked much shakier overall that season than any other that I can remember, as far as his prime years go. 

 

Tri seems to be arguing that, with the exception of his current contract, Marty hasn't always represented good value, which I disagree with.  And we know how it can go with the big stars who get signed to the long-term deals when they're in the second half of their primes.  Tri is coming off like Marty should have been vintage Marty for all six years of that deal to be anything more than a begrudging success.  I don't know how anyone could have or should have expected anything more than what they got over the course of that contract...simple logic dictated that there was almost no chance Marty would be the same player by the end of the deal...geez, all things considered, 2012 was really not that bad at all...from 2/2 on he was about as good as could be expected.   

 

Think about it...how many of those deals become disasters before the contract is even a couple of years old?  With MANY seasons left to go? 

 

No, that's ridiculous.  Brodeur had 3 great years.  He had one where he spent most of it injured, one bad one, and one subpar one.  I bet he was worth $9M+ in each of the first two years.  I also bet that he was worth around $2M in each of the last two.  I agree that it could've turned out a hell of a lot worse than it did, but without this Schneider deal (in effect without finishing so poorly last year that NJ could afford to make this deal), we'd still be looking at least one more year with him.


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