Jump to content

Photo

Ryane Clowe signs with the Devils. 5 years. 4.85 per.


  • Please log in to reply
137 replies to this topic

#101 Devils Pride 26

Devils Pride 26

    General Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,975 posts

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:54 PM

I think someone here might have mentioned it earlier, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the exact deal that was offered to Clarkson. Going to be interesting to see a player in this role who's only pass isn't to the point after circling around the net. 


  • 0

#102 devlman

devlman

    Head Coach

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,893 posts

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:58 PM

I've thought about this deal - why do GMs overpay players?
 
A:  To get them to come to their city.  Tough to get a guy to come if he's not getting the best offer.  So there's that element.  And some GMs, knowing their city isn't much of a draw, have to offer significantly more.
 
B:  The GM has inappropriately valued the player.  He's seeing things that aren't there about his game and believes he is a better player than he actually is.
 
C:  The GM feels that while the deal itself is not great, the scarcity of the player type means either overpaying or going without.  
 
Obviously I think that C is why Lou signed this deal - there were 3 guys like this:  Clarkson, Clowe, and Horton.  The latter 2 got 7 year deals.  You look at the class of 2014, and there isn't this sort of player available there either.  The Devils don't have the trade assets to get a guy like this and while Matteau might be looked at as this sort of player in a few years, that's in a few years.  So thus is life.  I don't love it - I don't like overvaluing types of players, I feel like teams are more malleable than that, but hopefully he has the speed to play with a guy like Kovalchuk.


Good perspective. I was thinking along those lines as to why Lou overpaid. I do hope Clowe isn't paired with Kovy, however.
  • 0

#103 Colorado Rockies 1976

Colorado Rockies 1976

    A Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,066 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:51 AM

I've thought about this deal - why do GMs overpay players?

 

A:  To get them to come to their city.  Tough to get a guy to come if he's not getting the best offer.  So there's that element.  And some GMs, knowing their city isn't much of a draw, have to offer significantly more.

 

B:  The GM has inappropriately valued the player.  He's seeing things that aren't there about his game and believes he is a better player than he actually is.

 

C:  The GM feels that while the deal itself is not great, the scarcity of the player type means either overpaying or going without.  

 

Obviously I think that C is why Lou signed this deal - there were 3 guys like this:  Clarkson, Clowe, and Horton.  The latter 2 got 7 year deals.  You look at the class of 2014, and there isn't this sort of player available there either.  The Devils don't have the trade assets to get a guy like this and while Matteau might be looked at as this sort of player in a few years, that's in a few years.  So thus is life.  I don't love it - I don't like overvaluing types of players, I feel like teams are more malleable than that, but hopefully he has the speed to play with a guy like Kovalchuk.  

 

Agree, C was probably why Lou did this.  Devils are a bit of a win-now team, but the Devils clearly became that the second Lou re-signed a 37-year-old Patrik Elias.     

To your list, I would also add:

 

D:  Regardless of how talented the top free agents of any given FA class are, GMs tend to give those guys overly high coin and/or term, seemingly just because...and it doesn't matter how quickly those deals become bad deals, or how many times we see the same mistakes made, GMs in all sports don't seem able to help themselves.  It's the old "Pay the top free agent superstar dollars (or close to it) because there isn't a true superstar available, but paying this player this money will somehow make this player a superstar, or at the very last, better than what we've see to date."  Top free agents seem to be overvalued coming out of the gate, by default. 

 

In Clarkson's case, the guy friggin' WANTED to come the Maple Leafs...it's not like the Leafs had to bribe him to come play for them...and because he was considered one of the top guys of this class, he still got silly money.    


  • 0
THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#104 The 29th Pick

The 29th Pick

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,904 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:16 AM

I see how a lot of these UFA's want to go play for their "home team" when they get the chance, I personally would probably do the same thing. If I were playing for the Canucks or Ducks and I became a free agent, I would love to come back east and play for the Devils. 

I think Lou should take this into consideration before that player leaves, and work out a trade to that team. Clarky is a perfect example, we were having a bad season last year and could have shipped him to the Leafs for their playoff run. We all seemed to know that he wanted to play for Toronto, I'm sure Lou knew too, and they couldve sat down and had a man to man talk about it.

We draft/sign these young players and build them up....only to see them bolt for nothing, and then we have to over pay for "replacements".


  • 0

#105 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27,420 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:21 AM

I see how a lot of these UFA's want to go play for their "home team" when they get the chance, I personally would probably do the same thing. If I were playing for the Canucks or Ducks and I became a free agent, I would love to come back east and play for the Devils. 

I think Lou should take this into consideration before that player leaves, and work out a trade to that team. Clarky is a perfect example, we were having a bad season last year and could have shipped him to the Leafs for their playoff run. We all seemed to know that he wanted to play for Toronto, I'm sure Lou knew too, and they couldve sat down and had a man to man talk about it.

We draft/sign these young players and build them up....only to see them bolt for nothing, and then we have to over pay for "replacements".

 

The Devils were in the playoff hunt at the trade deadline.  There's no way they should've been dealing Clarkson for anything at that point.


  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 


#106 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27,420 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:31 AM

Good perspective. I was thinking along those lines as to why Lou overpaid. I do hope Clowe isn't paired with Kovy, however.

 

Well, the Devils have one wing who shoots right-handed other than Kovalchuk - Ryder.  So I think Kovalchuk is over on the RW again.  The Devils seldom use Elias with Kovalchuk - I think they did when he first got here, but not often since.  That leaves Clowe, Henrique, or Zubrus - I could see Henrique winning that spot, but I think Clowe is a better fit than Zubrus, certainly.

 

Agree, C was probably why Lou did this.  Devils are a bit of a win-now team, but the Devils clearly became that the second Lou re-signed a 37-year-old Patrik Elias.     

To your list, I would also add:

 

D:  Regardless of how talented the top free agents of any given FA class are, GMs tend to give those guys overly high coin and/or term, seemingly just because...and it doesn't matter how quickly those deals become bad deals, or how many times we see the same mistakes made, GMs in all sports don't seem able to help themselves.  It's the old "Pay the top free agent superstar dollars (or close to it) because there isn't a true superstar available, but paying this player this money will somehow make this player a superstar, or at the very last, better than what we've see to date."  Top free agents seem to be overvalued coming out of the gate, by default. 

 

In Clarkson's case, the guy friggin' WANTED to come the Maple Leafs...it's not like the Leafs had to bribe him to come play for them...and because he was considered one of the top guys of this class, he still got silly money.    

 

I think I covered all the reasons - D is covered by either B or C.  You're competing against 30 teams to get a player.  It's been reported that Edmonton was willing to pay him more money.  You don't get that money back in the next year, nor do you get to spend it on something shrewder next year, because it's not like the free agent class improves the next year.  In Clarkson's case (and Clowe's case), it's mistaking a rare talent for a valuable one.


  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 


#107 ATLL765

ATLL765

    Assistant Coach

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,122 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:48 AM

Well, the Devils have one wing who shoots right-handed other than Kovalchuk - Ryder.  So I think Kovalchuk is over on the RW again.  The Devils seldom use Elias with Kovalchuk - I think they did when he first got here, but not often since.  That leaves Clowe, Henrique, or Zubrus - I could see Henrique winning that spot, but I think Clowe is a better fit than Zubrus, certainly.

 

 

I think I covered all the reasons - D is covered by either B or C.  You're competing against 30 teams to get a player.  It's been reported that Edmonton was willing to pay him more money.  You don't get that money back in the next year, nor do you get to spend it on something shrewder next year, because it's not like the free agent class improves the next year.  In Clarkson's case (and Clowe's case), it's mistaking a rare talent for a valuable one.

Don't forget Bernier, he still counts. We got 3 RH shots now!


  • 0

#108 Neb00rs

Neb00rs

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,397 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:00 AM

I've thought about this deal - why do GMs overpay players?

 

A:  To get them to come to their city.  Tough to get a guy to come if he's not getting the best offer.  So there's that element.  And some GMs, knowing their city isn't much of a draw, have to offer significantly more.

 

B:  The GM has inappropriately valued the player.  He's seeing things that aren't there about his game and believes he is a better player than he actually is.

 

C:  The GM feels that while the deal itself is not great, the scarcity of the player type means either overpaying or going without.  

 

Obviously I think that C is why Lou signed this deal - there were 3 guys like this:  Clarkson, Clowe, and Horton.  The latter 2 got 7 year deals.  You look at the class of 2014, and there isn't this sort of player available there either.  The Devils don't have the trade assets to get a guy like this and while Matteau might be looked at as this sort of player in a few years, that's in a few years.  So thus is life.  I don't love it - I don't like overvaluing types of players, I feel like teams are more malleable than that, but hopefully he has the speed to play with a guy like Kovalchuk.  

 

It was C, %100. Lou needed to make up for lost presence and goals and he got the best that he could. If he didn't offer what he did, we'd  be going into next year without having improved at all. Overall, Lou didn't massively overpay in free agency and we are a much better team than one week ago - that is an impressive victory; Lou convinced two top free agents to come to a non-playoff team in New Jersey and only really overpaid on one.

 

Throw in that we added a potential elite goaltender between the pipes and some depth with Olesz and I'd say Lou did his job.


  • 0

gallery_47_36_882.png of No One
Proud to be King of the Kovalnuts (Est. June 2010 by MantaRay)


#109 devlman

devlman

    Head Coach

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,893 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 12:33 PM

Well, the Devils have one wing who shoots right-handed other than Kovalchuk - Ryder.  So I think Kovalchuk is over on the RW again.  The Devils seldom use Elias with Kovalchuk - I think they did when he first got here, but not often since.  That leaves Clowe, Henrique, or Zubrus - I could see Henrique winning that spot, but I think Clowe is a better fit than Zubrus, certainly.


JJ with his pass first mentality could fit in with Kovy on that left wing, too. That would leave a physical, down-low, third line of Clowe-Henrique-Zubrus. Zubrus shoots left but has played RW much of his career.
  • 0

#110 SterioDesign

SterioDesign

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,676 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:45 PM

I see how a lot of these UFA's want to go play for their "home team" when they get the chance, I personally would probably do the same thing. If I were playing for the Canucks or Ducks and I became a free agent, I would love to come back east and play for the Devils. 

I think Lou should take this into consideration before that player leaves, and work out a trade to that team. Clarky is a perfect example, we were having a bad season last year and could have shipped him to the Leafs for their playoff run. We all seemed to know that he wanted to play for Toronto, I'm sure Lou knew too, and they couldve sat down and had a man to man talk about it.

We draft/sign these young players and build them up....only to see them bolt for nothing, and then we have to over pay for "replacements".

 

i'm 100% with you on this. Most will disagree though.

 

Just take the Sharks last season, very very similar situation than us and perfect example (we we're actually having a worst season than them). They were in the race for the playoffs and still traded Clowe cause they knew he wouldn't re-sign there. They still made the playoffs and wouldnt have done much better with Clowe either. They got 2 second round picks and a 3rd. I'm sure we could have got even more for Clarky. 

 

And well that some admit it or not... turns out it would have been the best move to do for the franchise. We recovered pretty well with Clowe and Ryder and all i think we have a good team for the next few seasons but again... a few extra picks in that draft or prospects would have been pretty sweet.


Edited by SterioDesign, 06 July 2013 - 04:47 PM.

  • 1

www.SterioDesign.com

 


#111 njdevsftw

njdevsftw

    Senior Devil

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 781 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:06 PM

i'm 100% with you on this. Most will disagree though.

 

Just take the Sharks last season, very very similar situation than us and perfect example (we we're actually having a worst season than them). They were in the race for the playoffs and still traded Clowe cause they knew he wouldn't re-sign there. They still made the playoffs and wouldnt have done much better with Clowe either. They got 2 second round picks and a 3rd. I'm sure we could have got even more for Clarky. 

 

And well that some admit it or not... turns out it would have been the best move to do for the franchise. We recovered pretty well with Clowe and Ryder and all i think we have a good team for the next few seasons but again... a few extra picks in that draft or prospects would have been pretty sweet.

 

Totally agree with this as well. Need to start getting some return on the players leaving.


  • 0
Posted Image

#112 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27,420 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:06 PM

i'm 100% with you on this. Most will disagree though.

 

Just take the Sharks last season, very very similar situation than us and perfect example (we we're actually having a worst season than them). They were in the race for the playoffs and still traded Clowe cause they knew he wouldn't re-sign there. They still made the playoffs and wouldnt have done much better with Clowe either. They got 2 second round picks and a 3rd. I'm sure we could have got even more for Clarky. 

 

And well that some admit it or not... turns out it would have been the best move to do for the franchise. We recovered pretty well with Clowe and Ryder and all i think we have a good team for the next few seasons but again... a few extra picks in that draft or prospects would have been pretty sweet.

 

It's not the same situation at all.  The Sharks likely dealt Clowe because they didn't want him back, not because they thought he wouldn't sign there.  They also had a decent enough stopgap with T.J Galiardi.  In addition, Clowe had 0 goals at the time of the trade, Clarkson was our leading goal scorer.  Handzus and Murray were net negative players so dealing them was really shrewd, and the Sharks got a nice return for Clowe, but his not being there hurt them in the playoffs - just hard to argue that it didn't.


  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 


#113 DH26

DH26

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,727 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:12 PM

It's not the same situation at all.  The Sharks likely dealt Clowe because they didn't want him back, not because they thought he wouldn't sign there.  They also had a decent enough stopgap with T.J Galiardi.  In addition, Clowe had 0 goals at the time of the trade, Clarkson was our leading goal scorer.  Handzus and Murray were net negative players so dealing them was really shrewd, and the Sharks got a nice return for Clowe, but his not being there hurt them in the playoffs - just hard to argue that it didn't.

 

Yeah I thought they were trying to do the addition by subtraction thing even if it didn't work out perfectly, same thing with Douglas Murray, who they had no intention of bringing back. They wouldn't have been trading Logan Couture in his UFA year since they'd want him back


  • 0
Follow Me on Twitter @mtorino75 I Need Followers!

Visit My Devils Blog! www.theTrapezoidConspiracy.com
Rutgers-New Brunswick '11, Rutgers School of Law-Newark '14

#114 Devil Dan 56

Devil Dan 56

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,651 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:07 PM

i'm 100% with you on this. Most will disagree though.

Just take the Sharks last season, very very similar situation than us and perfect example (we we're actually having a worst season than them). They were in the race for the playoffs and still traded Clowe cause they knew he wouldn't re-sign there. They still made the playoffs and wouldnt have done much better with Clowe either. They got 2 second round picks and a 3rd. I'm sure we could have got even more for Clarky.

And well that some admit it or not... turns out it would have been the best move to do for the franchise. We recovered pretty well with Clowe and Ryder and all i think we have a good team for the next few seasons but again... a few extra picks in that draft or prospects would have been pretty sweet.


What you have described is a team that would perpetually trade away players that may or may not leave. Trading them away means you wouldn't have them for the playoffs, meaning you lessen your chance if winning in the playoffs. Then you draft new players that you will trade away again out of fear of them leaving, continuing the cycle.

Your plan would have seen us trade Elias, Clarkson, zubrus and zidlicky if none of them could absolutely commit to re-signing.
  • 0
Official NJDevs.com Keeper of Gory Corey Schwab, Mike Peluso, Troy Crowder, Jeff Frazee, and Rich Shulmistra.
"The Devils are that zombie that takes an ax to the skull, a bullet to the temple and is set on fire … and yet keeps lumbering along to the annoyance of all the other zombies." - Puck Daddy

#115 SterioDesign

SterioDesign

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,676 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:13 PM

What you have described is a team that would perpetually trade away players that may or may not leave. Trading them away means you wouldn't have them for the playoffs, meaning you lessen your chance if winning in the playoffs. Then you draft new players that you will trade away again out of fear of them leaving, continuing the cycle.

Your plan would have seen us trade Elias, Clarkson, zubrus and zidlicky if none of them could absolutely commit to re-signing.

 

dude how could you still don't understand after all the time i re-explained myself ? like seriously? how ?

 

like i can't even believe i'd have to re-explained myself to you for you to get that idea that i'd trade away any player not coomiting to re-signing. you pin that on me every time yet i explain you thats NOT what im saying yet you come back with that lol 

 

In this case, from the start it was simply not gonna happen. Clarkson wanted 7 years and wanted too much money and Lou was not willing to give him that. He was a goner or he would have been overpaid and on a bad contract. There was no possible good possible scenario on the horizon. In this case for example it could have been avoided. 


Edited by SterioDesign, 06 July 2013 - 06:27 PM.

  • 0

www.SterioDesign.com

 


#116 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27,420 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:24 PM

FWIW, the Sharks dealt Clowe for a 2nd, a conditional 2nd (or 5th), and picked up Raffi Torres (presumably to replace Clowe) for a 3rd.  So it's not like they come out way ahead on the deal, they got basically a low 2nd/high 3rd and a 5th.


  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 


#117 Devil Dan 56

Devil Dan 56

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,651 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:33 PM

dude how could you still don't understand after all the time i re-explained myself ? like seriously? how ?


I understand. It's just a terrible strategy that will keep a team perpetually trading away players that say they may not be interested in returning. Maybe you get back a couple of picks which could take 4-5 years to pan out if they ever do, but you sacrifice a playoff run. Re explaining it doesn't make it a good idea.
  • 0
Official NJDevs.com Keeper of Gory Corey Schwab, Mike Peluso, Troy Crowder, Jeff Frazee, and Rich Shulmistra.
"The Devils are that zombie that takes an ax to the skull, a bullet to the temple and is set on fire … and yet keeps lumbering along to the annoyance of all the other zombies." - Puck Daddy

#118 SterioDesign

SterioDesign

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,676 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:35 PM

FWIW, the Sharks dealt Clowe for a 2nd, a conditional 2nd (or 5th), and picked up Raffi Torres (presumably to replace Clowe) for a 3rd.  So it's not like they come out way ahead on the deal, they got basically a low 2nd/high 3rd and a 5th.

 

well thats a low 2nd/3rd and a 5th more than what we got for Clarkson. 

 

Like i said in the previous post, there was no good possible scenarios with Clarkson staying in NJ. 

 

Not as if i'm saying that you have to trade any player that you're scared of losing cause you don't know if you'll be able to keep them. but in some cases simply an early discussion could really help. In this case Clarkson was a goner and Lou could have known that months ago.


  • 0

www.SterioDesign.com

 


#119 Devil Dan 56

Devil Dan 56

    Hall of Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,651 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:38 PM

dude how could you still don't understand after all the time i re-explained myself ? like seriously? how ?

like i can't even believe i'd have to re-explained myself to you for you to get that idea that i'd trade away any player not coomiting to re-signing. you pin that on me every time yet i explain you thats NOT what im saying yet you come back with that lol

In this case, from the start it was simply not gonna happen. Clarkson wanted 7 years and wanted too much money and Lou was not willing to give him that. He was a goner or he would have been overpaid and on a bad contract. There was no possible good possible scenario on the horizon. In this case for example it could have been avoided.


Right. And he was the leading scorer on a team that was in playoff contention at the deadline. It's easy to say now that they should have traded him, but at the time it would have been stupid.
  • 0
Official NJDevs.com Keeper of Gory Corey Schwab, Mike Peluso, Troy Crowder, Jeff Frazee, and Rich Shulmistra.
"The Devils are that zombie that takes an ax to the skull, a bullet to the temple and is set on fire … and yet keeps lumbering along to the annoyance of all the other zombies." - Puck Daddy

#120 Triumph

Triumph

    A Legend

  • Mod
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27,420 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:43 PM

well thats a low 2nd/3rd and a 5th more than what we got for Clarkson. 

 

Like i said in the previous post, there was no good possible scenarios with Clarkson staying in NJ. 

 

Not as if i'm saying that you have to trade any player that you're scared of losing cause you don't know if you'll be able to keep them. but in some cases simply an early discussion could really help. In this case Clarkson was a goner and Lou could have known that months ago.

 

That's ridiculous.  Clarkson says he thought returning to NJ was still an option on Friday.  Why would he say that?


  • 0

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users