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#61 Chimaira_Devil_#9

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 07:09 PM

So um .... Hey what's going on....... A deal was supposed to be close twice.

This situation reminds me of a quote from the movie Snatch.

Turkish: How long with the sausages Charlie?

Charlie: 2 minutes Turkish.

(A few minutes pass)

Turkish :What's happening with them sausages, Charlie?

Charlie: Five minutes, Turkish.

Turkish :It was two minutes five minutes ago!!!!!
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#62 Z-Man

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 07:46 PM

Saw this today.

 

http://www.hockeybuz...84#.UfmvduYo7iw

 

"If Henrique and the Devils agree to a short-term (2-3 years) extension, I expect he'll earn close to $3 million per season while if he signs a long-term deal I expect he'll earn about $4 million per season."
 


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#63 2ELIAS6

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 08:26 PM

Sign him long term lets fvckin go here Lou Christ
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#64 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:25 PM

Sign him long term lets fvckin go here Lou Christ

 

There's 2 sides to a negotiation. Henrique himself said he and his agent were weighing a short and long term deal. RFA's take longer to sign. There's much less of a deadline to worry about and much less leverage.


Edited by Devil Dan 56, 31 July 2013 - 10:25 PM.

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#65 mouse

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:33 PM

Sign him long term lets fvckin go here Lou Christ

I get the logic there, but we don't actually know how good he is yet. He wasn't projected THAT high, had 1 very good season and 1 disappointing season. I know you want to avoid the Zach situation, but there's something to be said for taking your time to evaluate a guy before committing a ton of time to him, especially with the cap.


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#66 Bibby89

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:14 AM

The fact that he proved to be "clutch" during the playoff run is also a reason I'd like to see him locked up as well.
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#67 LucifersDog

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:30 AM

It an advantage for Lou to sign him to a short term deal but Lou doesn't like the price. Lou wants the long term price for a short term deal. Another team would have to offer $4.5 to steal him but what team would offer that for an unknown?


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#68 Triumph

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:40 AM

If he's not signed by September 1st, I'll begin to get concerned.


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#69 njdevsftw

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:53 AM

I'm completely fascinated by americans and their interpretation of players having some (to me, seemingly random) playoff scoring success as proof of some innate intangible attribute known as "being clutch". Equally, a couple of bad games in the playoff also means that an otherwise proven elite player can be called a "choker" and useless. I'm sure there are elements of playoffs games and the way they are played that can benefit a certain type of player, but it really seems like you guys blow the stats from these few games way out of proportion.
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#70 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:56 AM

I'm completely fascinated by americans and their interpretation of players having some (to me, seemingly random) playoff scoring success as proof of some innate intangible attribute known as "being clutch". Equally, a couple of bad games in the playoff also means that an otherwise proven elite player can be called a "choker" and useless. I'm sure there are elements of playoffs games and the way they are played that can benefit a certain type of player, but it really seems like you guys blow the stats from these few games way out of proportion.

 

How is this an American phenomenon?  Most of the GMs in the league are Canadian, and I hear those GMs and Canadian fans talk about someone's playoff success or lack thereof. 


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#71 njdevsftw

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:59 AM

How is this an American phenomenon?  Most of the GMs in the league are Canadian, and I hear those GMs and Canadian fans talk about someone's playoff success or lack thereof. 

 

Sorry, north american. :P


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#72 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:19 AM

Sorry, north american. :P

 

Don't know much about sports fans outside of North America, but judging by the absolute lunacy of lots of European soccer fans, I have to guess that belief in "clutchness" crosses all culturual lines.


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#73 Triumph

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:39 AM

Don't know much about sports fans outside of North America, but judging by the absolute lunacy of lots of European soccer fans, I have to guess that belief in "clutchness" crosses all culturual lines.

 

European soccer leagues (besides the Champions league, which is a super-tournament) aren't decided by a playoff system, so I imagine that there's much less talk of being clutch.  I don't know where the clutch narrative has come from - I want to say baseball - but njdevsftw is right, it is awfully weird.


Edited by Triumph, 01 August 2013 - 09:41 AM.

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#74 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:10 AM

European soccer leagues (besides the Champions league, which is a super-tournament) aren't decided by a playoff system, so I imagine that there's much less talk of being clutch.  I don't know where the clutch narrative has come from - I want to say baseball - but njdevsftw is right, it is awfully weird.

 

Can say from experience that Italians hated Baggio for missing that PK at the World Cup.  I guess that counts.

 

The clutch narrative comes from the fact that gettomg wrapped up in professional sports is an irrational activity to begin with.   When you realize that otherwise intelligent people can spend much of their disposable income on watching people they don't know play a game, belief in clutchness shouldn't be that surprising a phenomenon.


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#75 njdevsftw

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:21 AM

"Clutchness" is not a factor in sports debates here (in Europe) at all. Some of soccers greatest players have missed important penalty shots.. Baggio, Zico, Platini, Raul, Beckham, Ronaldo.. but that never translates into a debate over whether or not they, specifically, are more prone to crumble under pressure then others. (As a sidenote, the soccer World Cup and Champion League penalty shootouts seem to make everyone extremely nervous and non-clutch. :P )


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#76 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:31 AM

I definitely think there are guys who are more "clutch" than others, and guys more prone to "choking" than others, but those labels probably get thrown around more often than they should. 

 

NHL goalies and NFL QBs seem to bear the brunt of those labels more than anyone else (in baseball and basketball, it seems to be more a select few superstars who get marked as clutch or choker, regardless of what position they play).  Tom Brady and Martin Brodeur are often thought of as clutch, but I've seen both of them have their share of tough times come playoff time.  Not knocking either one, as I'm a huge fan of both, but it seems like once you get a ring, it seems like you're almost labeled clutch by default, even if you perform like a "choker" before and after your championship (or even during).  Peyton Manning has still had a lot of disappointing playoff performances, but got the ring, so the sharks have pretty much laid off him since.

 

I brought this up with Triumph a while back, but it's not so much "clutch" for me, as it is some guys having "the knack".  The problem with the knack is that, though some guys seem to have it more than others, it's impossible to tell who will have it and who won't...overall talent and skill often doesn't seem to have that much to do with it.  ARod's repeated failings in the postseason have gotten a lot of mention through the years, but in 2009, he was an absolute beast.  As "unclutch" as he was in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012 as a Yankee, he couldn't have been better in 2009.  Tri and the fans' MO who don't believe in the concept of clutch will always point out that playoff samples are always small ones, and that anyone can get hot or go cold in such small periods of time.  ARod played 5 playoff games in 2005, 4 in 2006, 4 in 2007, 9 in 2010, 5 in 2011, and 7 in 2012.  If you point out that collectively that all of those poor small samples combined show a guy prone to slumping at the worst times, you'll still get the "small sample response" (the six playoff seasons where ARod struggled is a total of 34 games played...not much over a fifth of a season).  Technically, it's not wrong, but I do think there are guys who handle the pressure of "big spots" better than others, and the guys who do that have a way of earning reputations as such.  I also think there are guys who clearly struggle with the spotlight.  But I also think there are guys who happen to be hot at the right times, others who are cold at the wrong ones, and it doesn't have anything to do with anything mental or physical, or being clutch or unclutch.  I think there's a kind of way to define the whole clutch/choker thing to a very limited extent, but it will always be a very hard entity to quantify, and will always be over-correlated to the player in question's team winning a title.        


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 01 August 2013 - 10:32 AM.

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#77 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:10 AM

If I'm a GM in any sport, I'd put little, if any premium on clutchness, except maybe for baseball where a particular player's performance is much less dependent on one's teammates.  I've always said that Peyton Manning, despite his perceived lack of clutchness, is the superior quarterback to Tom Brady.   With Brady, had he been thrown into the ringer immediately on a team bad enough to be picking number 1 overall, it's debatable whether he would have had a career of any note.  But you know with Manning that if you put him on any team, it's basically an automatic ten win season. 

 

In hockey, Lunqvist has a perceived lack of clutchness.  Is there really any question though that the Blackhawks would take him over Corey Crawford in a heartbeat (not accounting for things like age, salary demands, etc.). 


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#78 ATLL765

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:27 AM

If I'm a GM in any sport, I'd put little, if any premium on clutchness, except maybe for baseball where a particular player's performance is much less dependent on one's teammates.  I've always said that Peyton Manning, despite his perceived lack of clutchness, is the superior quarterback to Tom Brady.   With Brady, had he been thrown into the ringer immediately on a team bad enough to be picking number 1 overall, it's debatable whether he would have had a career of any note.  But you know with Manning that if you put him on any team, it's basically an automatic ten win season. 

 

In hockey, Lunqvist has a perceived lack of clutchness.  Is there really any question though that the Blackhawks would take him over Corey Crawford in a heartbeat (not accounting for things like age, salary demands, etc.). 

All things created equal, no way anybody takes Crawford over Lundqvist. I don't think you can even look at his playoff record and stats and say he's a choker or isn't clutch. His team just blows. That being said, I hope this is the way it will be for his whole career.


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#79 njdevsftw

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:35 AM

There is ofcourse a mental aspect, and I think the NFL QB position is probably one of the toughest in the sports world in that regard. Especially because you have the very distinct "pressure moments" (4th down) with everyones eyes focused solely on the QB.. So yeah, I am sure there are clutch performers and people who don't handle pressure well..

 

I just feel like in hockey it gets thrown around at everyone after a very short period of time. Some people here say Henrique is clutch.. Because of the goal against the Rangers or what? I just don't see it. He had one good season, I agree. But to sign him up long term now because of that goal? Seems a bit strange. Last season he was a non-factor.

 

The other extreme example is Luongo with a stellar career filled with magical performances and a career save % of 92, he was 1 win away from a ring, and now all of a sudden he's Brian Finley.


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#80 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:05 PM

If I'm a GM in any sport, I'd put little, if any premium on clutchness, except maybe for baseball where a particular player's performance is much less dependent on one's teammates.  I've always said that Peyton Manning, despite his perceived lack of clutchness, is the superior quarterback to Tom Brady.   With Brady, had he been thrown into the ringer immediately on a team bad enough to be picking number 1 overall, it's debatable whether he would have had a career of any note.  But you know with Manning that if you put him on any team, it's basically an automatic ten win season. 

 

In hockey, Lunqvist has a perceived lack of clutchness.  Is there really any question though that the Blackhawks would take him over Corey Crawford in a heartbeat (not accounting for things like age, salary demands, etc.). 

 

Not going to turn this into a Manning-Brady debate, as it's way off topic, but please.  You mean the awesome Patriots that finished '99 on a 2-6 downslide, went 5-11 the following season, and was 0-1 (and on their way to 0-2 and not looking good at all) in 2001 before Brady got his chance in the second game of the year (due to Bledsoe being injured)?  Hate to break it to you, but Brady didn't exactly come into a powerhouse team.  Going into the 2001 season, in an informal poll, GMs around the league the picked the Pats as the least likely to win a Super Bowl in the next five seasons...he basically WAS thrown into the ringer...the Pats had lost 18 out of 25 games when he became their QB.  Brady comes in, and just like that, the team has been a consistent winner ever since.  No one does it all by himself, but do you think maybe Brady had just a bit more to do with the Patriots' success than you seem to be willing to get him credit for?  You make it sound like he's been along for the ride all this time, when he's managed to lead his teams to a whole lot of wins with good defenses AND bad, and with both mediocre receivers and backs and terrific ones.  He almost got to the Super Bowl with Reche Friggin' Caldwell as his #1 receiver in 2006.  Peyton had a lot of terrific players around him on offense for much of his Colts career.  BTW, Peyton's teams have been one-and-done 8 out of 12 times in the playoffs...Brady's teams have seen that happen just twice.   

 

Look, I think they're both clearly the top QBs of their generation, few would try to dispute that, and QBs, like NHL goalies, tend to get too much credit AND blame for their teams' success and failure.  I used to get caught up in the Manning/Brady debate, but I've gotten to the point where I simply appreciate that I got to see two all-time greats do their thing, and quite a bit on opposing teams, in very memorable fashion.   

 

But if you're going to be a Peyton fanboy, at least acknowledge the facts before just blabbing "Well, Peyton's superior, mostly because I say so."


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 01 August 2013 - 12:06 PM.

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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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