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#81 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:03 PM

Not going to turn this into a Manning-Brady debate, as it's way off topic, but please.  You mean the awesome Patriots that finished '99 on a 2-6 downslide, went 5-11 the following season, and was 0-1 (and on their way to 0-2 and not looking good at all) in 2001 before Brady got his chance in the second game of the year (due to Bledsoe being injured)?  Hate to break it to you, but Brady didn't exactly come into a powerhouse team.  Going into the 2001 season, in an informal poll, GMs around the league the picked the Pats as the least likely to win a Super Bowl in the next five seasons...he basically WAS thrown into the ringer...the Pats had lost 18 out of 25 games when he became their QB.  Brady comes in, and just like that, the team has been a consistent winner ever since.  No one does it all by himself, but do you think maybe Brady had just a bit more to do with the Patriots' success than you seem to be willing to get him credit for?  You make it sound like he's been along for the ride all this time, when he's managed to lead his teams to a whole lot of wins with good defenses AND bad, and with both mediocre receivers and backs and terrific ones.  He almost got to the Super Bowl with Reche Friggin' Caldwell as his #1 receiver in 2006.  Peyton had a lot of terrific players around him on offense for much of his Colts career.  BTW, Peyton's teams have been one-and-done 8 out of 12 times in the playoffs...Brady's teams have seen that happen just twice.   

 

Look, I think they're both clearly the top QBs of their generation, few would try to dispute that, and QBs, like NHL goalies, tend to get too much credit AND blame for their teams' success and failure.  I used to get caught up in the Manning/Brady debate, but I've gotten to the point where I simply appreciate that I got to see two all-time greats do their thing, and quite a bit on opposing teams, in very memorable fashion.   

 

But if you're going to be a Peyton fanboy, at least acknowledge the facts before just blabbing "Well, Peyton's superior, mostly because I say so."

 

 

The Pats were .500 or better the four seasons before 2000.  Brady came into a situation very similar to Rothlesiberger did in his first season, where the Steelers were 6-10 the previous year, but were a good team before that and were very well coached. Might explain why the Pats were able to win ten games with Matt Cassell as the starter.  Meanwhile, the one year Manning isn't playing, the Colts are the worst team in league.  And for all of Brady's "clutchness", people tend to overlook that he lost the Super Bowl throwing to one of the best WR's of all time, and to a Wildcard opponent, no less.

 

Before Manning got to the Colts, that team was the laughing stock of the NFL, for years.  Manning got the crap knocked out of him his first year.  There are a lot of QBs that never recover from that sort of thing.  And with Manning, we know for a fact that he could dominate just the same on a completely different team, and coming off not playing for a year and as an older player. 

 

As you said, it's pretty much hair splitting.  But as I've said way back when, if you can go back in time and be the GM of the 2002 Texans, and had to choose Brady or Manning, the obvious choice is Manning.


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#82 mouse

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:27 PM

There is ofcourse a mental aspect, and I think the NFL QB position is probably one of the toughest in the sports world in that regard. Especially because you have the very distinct "pressure moments" (4th down) with everyones eyes focused solely on the QB.. So yeah, I am sure there are clutch performers and people who don't handle pressure well..

 

I just feel like in hockey it gets thrown around at everyone after a very short period of time. Some people here say Henrique is clutch.. Because of the goal against the Rangers or what? I just don't see it. He had one good season, I agree. But to sign him up long term now because of that goal? Seems a bit strange. Last season he was a non-factor.

 

The other extreme example is Luongo with a stellar career filled with magical performances and a career save % of 92, he was 1 win away from a ring, and now all of a sudden he's Brian Finley.

I would say Luongo is a head case, though. When he fvcks up, he tends to melt down. His stats are good because he's talented, and often doesn't fvck up.


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#83 mouse

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:29 PM

The Pats were .500 or better the four seasons before 2000.  Brady came into a situation very similar to Rothlesiberger did in his first season, where the Steelers were 6-10 the previous year, but were a good team before that and were very well coached. Might explain why the Pats were able to win ten games with Matt Cassell as the starter.  Meanwhile, the one year Manning isn't playing, the Colts are the worst team in league.  And for all of Brady's "clutchness", people tend to overlook that he lost the Super Bowl throwing to one of the best WR's of all time, and to a Wildcard opponent, no less.

 

Before Manning got to the Colts, that team was the laughing stock of the NFL, for years.  Manning got the crap knocked out of him his first year.  There are a lot of QBs that never recover from that sort of thing.  And with Manning, we know for a fact that he could dominate just the same on a completely different team, and coming off not playing for a year and as an older player. 

 

As you said, it's pretty much hair splitting.  But as I've said way back when, if you can go back in time and be the GM of the 2002 Texans, and had to choose Brady or Manning, the obvious choice is Manning.

 No disrespect to Manning, but he was 1 part of a huge rebuilding process, and played most of his prime with Marvin Harrison, Jeff Saturday, Reggie Wayne, and Edgerrin James.


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#84 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:32 PM

The Pats were .500 or better the four seasons before 2000.  Brady came into a situation very similar to Rothlesiberger did in his first season, where the Steelers were 6-10 the previous year, but were a good team before that and were very well coached. Might explain why the Pats were able to win ten games with Matt Cassell as the starter.  Meanwhile, the one year Manning isn't playing, the Colts are the worst team in league.  And for all of Brady's "clutchness", people tend to overlook that he lost the Super Bowl throwing to one of the best WR's of all time, and to a Wildcard opponent, no less.

 

Before Manning got to the Colts, that team was the laughing stock of the NFL, for years.  Manning got the crap knocked out of him his first year.  There are a lot of QBs that never recover from that sort of thing.  And with Manning, we know for a fact that he could dominate just the same on a completely different team, and coming off not playing for a year and as an older player. 

 

As you said, it's pretty much hair splitting.  But as I've said way back when, if you can go back in time and be the GM of the 2002 Texans, and had to choose Brady or Manning, the obvious choice is Manning.

 

You think PETE CARROLL was a good head coach for the Patriots?  Saying that the Pats were a .500 team or better is only telling part of the story.  They were 11-5 in their last year under Parcells, then 10-6, 9-7, then 8-8 (with that 2-6 collapse to finish out the 8-8 season)...they were clearly declining, and that wasn't helped by Carroll running the equivalent of a country club, and Bledsoe's penchant for tailing off in the second half of NFL seasons almost routinely.  Belichick was under heavy criticism in NE...he was 5-13 before Brady became the starter.  No one was saying the Pats were well-coached at the time.

 

I'm not going to knock a guy who helped his team reach five Super Bowls, even if he didn't win them all.  Your statement about Brady shows exactly how QBs get too much of the blame sometimes...in 2007 he got his team the lead and the Pats' D had to make one stop to win the game.  They didn't.  There's blame to go around.

 

Brady was picked 199th overall for a reason.  EVERYONE missed the boat on him (I doubt even Brady himself thought he could be as good as he became), and it's not like the Pats were geniuses for picking him...Bledsoe was supposed to be the man for years, and it took him being injured to give Brady a chance he may not have gotten.  Brady was nothing more than a what-the-hell pick, a guy the Pats thought could be a backup for them at best.  Peyton may have had the far more glamorous pedigree initially, but what the hell does that matter?  Trevor Kidd and Felix Potvin were ranked ahead of Martin Brodeur in the 1990 draft pre-scouting reports, and Kidd went 9 picks ahead of Brodeur.  And that means what now?   


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#85 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:35 PM

The idea of 'clutch' is just the belief that some players can come up big in big moments. I don't think the idea is that they ALWAYS do, but that it happens.

 

For example, Marty was looked at as a major choke artist in 2001, but his performances in games 5 and 6 of the 2000 finals are legendary. They needed him to be special then, and he did. He couldn't do it again against his idol in 2001, he couldn't do anything in 2002, but then in the finals in 2003 he had 3 shutouts. Did he face a ton of shots? No, but he stopped them all in 3 games including a game 7. In that moment, he was "clutch".

 

Same with Claude Lemieux in 86 and 95. He was just the guy who would come up with the big goals those years. Was it his whole career? Nope, but certain times.

 

Other examples, Richter in 94 and the 1996 World Cup, Jon Casey in St Louis when Fuhr went down, and the CBGB line in 2012. Just guys who came up big in big moments.

 

Curtis Joseph was a regular season beast in the 90's, and was long considered a flop because he could never do it in the playoffs.

 

ARod was mentioned before. He's looked at as a 'choker' for the simple reason that when the game was on the line, he couldn't be counted on in the mind of fans. It seemed like clockwork that when he was up with men on base in a losing game, he would hit into a double play.


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#86 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:47 PM

DD56, it is funny that, once you get the rep as a "clutch" guy, you're often remembered as a guy who came through almost 100% of the time, even though it's obviously not true...the converse is true for chokers. 

 

Derek Jeter will forever be revered as a guy who never ever failed in the clutch, and Alex Rodriguez will be the guy who never ever got it done, 2009 be damned.  Their diverse personalities (one beloved, one hated) help to feed into the "all-or-nothing" perception.   


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Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
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Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

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#87 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:50 PM

DD56, it is funny that, once you get the rep as a "clutch" guy, you're often remembered as a guy who came through almost 100% of the time, even though it's obviously not true...the converse is true for chokers. 

 

Derek Jeter will forever be revered as a guy who never ever failed in the clutch, and Alex Rodriguez will be the guy who never ever got it done, 2009 be damned.  Their diverse personalities (one beloved, one hated) help to feed into the "all-or-nothing" perception.   

 

Yep. Luongo is a perfect example. He couldn't for the life of him get out of the second round for years in the NHL. Then he wins a gold medal and goes to game 7 of the finals and he can't shake the label.


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#88 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:50 PM

 

 

Brady was picked 199th overall for a reason.  EVERYONE missed the boat on him (I doubt even Brady himself thought he could be as good as he became), and it's not like the Pats were geniuses for picking him...Bledsoe was supposed to be the man for years, and it took him being injured to give Brady a chance he may not have gotten.  Brady was nothing more than a what-the-hell pick, a guy the Pats thought could be a backup for them at best.  Peyton may have had the far more glamorous pedigree initially, but what the hell does that matter?  Trevor Kidd and Felix Potvin were ranked ahead of Martin Brodeur in the 1990 draft pre-scouting reports, and Kidd went 9 picks ahead of Brodeur.  And that means what now?   

 

I think you're responding to my point about the 2002 Texans, so perhaps I should be more clear.  It's not who you would take knowing at that time what the Colts and Patriots knew when they drafted Manning and Brady.  It's if you had a crystal ball, and saw how each performed during their careers, and then being able to make the choice. 

 

Or maybe I can put it this way.  If you put Manning on this year's Raiders, he wins at least 9 games.  Brady wins six games.  It's not very scientific, but there you have it.


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#89 Devilsfan118

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:08 PM

Devils’ Adam Henrique “not worried” contract isn’t done yet, “It’s just a mattter of time” 

 

http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/fireice/devils_adam_henrique_not_worried_contract_isnt_done_yet_its_just_a_mattter_of_time/


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#90 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:10 PM

I think you're responding to my point about the 2002 Texans, so perhaps I should be more clear.  It's not who you would take knowing at that time what the Colts and Patriots knew when they drafted Manning and Brady.  It's if you had a crystal ball, and saw how each performed during their careers, and then being able to make the choice. 

 

Or maybe I can put it this way.  If you put Manning on this year's Raiders, he wins at least 9 games.  Brady wins six games.  It's not very scientific, but there you have it.

 

Yeah, that's Manning fanboy speak.  Brady has shown he can win with ordinary personnel around him (he didn't start getting names around him until 2007, and in the case of Welker, you can argue he helped Welker become a bigger name) and you only need to look at his lesser receiving corps pre-2007 to know that that's been proven. 

 

You stating the bold like it's some incontrovertible fact is just plain silly and wrong...it's a hypothetical based on tunnel-vision worship of one with a need to somehow diminish the other.       


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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#91 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:18 PM

Devils’ Adam Henrique “not worried” contract isn’t done yet, “It’s just a mattter of time” 

 

http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/fireice/devils_adam_henrique_not_worried_contract_isnt_done_yet_its_just_a_mattter_of_time/

 

This is not conducive to the panic we are trying to have here.

 

Now, where were we? Ah, yes... :headless chicken: :headless chicken: :headless chicken:


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#92 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:20 PM

Yeah, that's Manning fanboy speak.  Brady has shown he can win with ordinary personnel around him (he didn't start getting names around him until 2007, and in the case of Welker, you can argue he helped Welker become a bigger name) and you only need to look at his lesser receiving corps pre-2007 to know that that's been proven. 

 

You stating the bold like it's some incontrovertible fact is just plain silly and wrong...it's a hypothetical based on tunnel-vision worship of one with a need to somehow diminish the other.       

 

Dude relax.  I said it's not scientific, which should not be interpreted to mean incontrovertible.  There is something to go on though, if you compare what the Colts were without Manning and the success he had with the Broncos.  It's almost like he never missed a beat.  And with Brady, you can at least say that a total bum like Matt Cassell, who had exactly zero starts to that point, was able to win ten games (Brady fan boys always seem to ignore that little booger hanging out of the nose).

 

Also, i'm a Dolphins fan, and much less of a Patriots hater than I used to be.  So I'm not a Manning fan boy, unless that means anyone that points out a few holes in the argument that Brady is the greatest QB of his generation.


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#93 mouse

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:33 PM

Dude relax.  I said it's not scientific, which should not be interpreted to mean incontrovertible.  There is something to go on though, if you compare what the Colts were without Manning and the success he had with the Broncos.  It's almost like he never missed a beat.  And with Brady, you can at least say that a total bum like Matt Cassell, who had exactly zero starts to that point, was able to win ten games (Brady fan boys always seem to ignore that little booger hanging out of the nose).

 

Also, i'm a Dolphins fan, and much less of a Patriots hater than I used to be.  So I'm not a Manning fan boy, unless that means anyone that points out a few holes in the argument that Brady is the greatest QB of his generation.

Again, the Colts drafted a ton of (non Manning) players, and pretty quickly added Dungy. If you put Manning on the pre-Manning Colts, he would have had different teammates, which goes back to the point someone made about QBs getting a disproportionate amount of credit AND blame. Also, the Broncos made the playoffs (and actually won a game) the year before he got there with Tim Tebow, and much as Tebow gets a ton of credit, John Fox and the D were just as important, if not more, and both were still there when Manning got there. I'm not knocking Manning, and I obviously think he's a ton better than Tebow, but he's not any more of a savior than Brady. They're both great. They have both had help. They have both made everyone around them look better.


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#94 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:04 PM

Dude relax.  I said it's not scientific, which should not be interpreted to mean incontrovertible.  There is something to go on though, if you compare what the Colts were without Manning and the success he had with the Broncos.  It's almost like he never missed a beat.  And with Brady, you can at least say that a total bum like Matt Cassell, who had exactly zero starts to that point, was able to win ten games (Brady fan boys always seem to ignore that little booger hanging out of the nose).

 

Also, i'm a Dolphins fan, and much less of a Patriots hater than I used to be.  So I'm not a Manning fan boy, unless that means anyone that points out a few holes in the argument that Brady is the greatest QB of his generation.

 

Cassel did have a good season with KC in 2010...not like he never did anything in the league again.  He did do a pretty good job with Pats in 2008, better than anyone could have expected, but if you want to make an argument about someone going to play for a stacked team, that would be the one...that team came off "18-1 with one Giant loss" season, with many of the same players in place.  He also had three full seasons with the Pats under his belt, so at least he had SOME knowledge of the Patriots offense going in.  At any rate, the performance of that offense fell off pretty significantly...from 589 points in 2007 to 410 points in 2008.  I'm going to go ahead and say the Pats probably would've topped 500 again in 2009 with Brady (as they have in 2011, 12, and 13).   

 

We'll never know how Brady would play on another team (you seem to think that he'd be a scrub on any other team not named the Patriots), but I guess you've decided that the fact that he's played his entire career with the Patriots means it should somehow be held against him.  Anyway, I pretty much agree with what mouse says.  Both players are all-time greats, both have had some help along the way, both make unbelievable plays, and both have helped to make teammates better players.     


Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976, 01 August 2013 - 03:04 PM.

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THE NHL MUST LOVE THE DEVILS - from who else? A RANGER fan!
[Mark Messier]: A big, bald attention whore with a stupid Easter Island-lookin face. - from who else? DaneykoIsGod!

Even when Marty comes back maybe Larry should put Clemmensen to be on the goal during the shootouts.
Can the coach do that ? Switch the goalies 5 seconds to go in overtime?
- Most priceless quote ever posted on a message board.

Martin Brodeur: THE MOST ALL-TIME WINS!, 12 straight seasons of 30+ wins, 3 Stanley Cups, 4 Vezina Trophies, and zero respect from too many so-called Devils "fans" who are either too young or too bandwagon to remember the much darker days of Sean Burke, Craig Billington, Bob Sauve, Alain Chevrier, and the talented but overwhelmed Chico Resch, among many others.

It's easy to support a great player when he's playing at his very best. It takes a true fan to support that same player during those rare moments and stretches when he's not. Babe Ruth went 0-4 some games, and sometimes Wayne Gretzky was held pointless. There may be such a thing as greatness, but no such thing as absolute perfection every single night.

#30 FOREVER!

20 out of 1,946 njdevs.com members agree: CR1976 is the Most Knowledgable Poster of 2008! Victory is mine...oh yes, victory is mine!

#95 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:19 PM

Cassel did have a good season with KC in 2010...not like he never did anything in the league again.  He did do a pretty good job with Pats in 2008, better than anyone could have expected, but if you want to make an argument about someone going to play for a stacked team, that would be the one...that team came off "18-1 with one Giant loss" season, with many of the same players in place.  He also had three full seasons with the Pats under his belt, so at least he had SOME knowledge of the Patriots offense going in.  At any rate, the performance of that offense fell off pretty significantly...from 589 points in 2007 to 410 points in 2008.  I'm going to go ahead and say the Pats probably would've topped 500 again in 2009 with Brady (as they have in 2011, 12, and 13).   

 

We'll never know how Brady would play on another team (you seem to think that he'd be a scrub on any other team not named the Patriots), but I guess you've decided that the fact that he's played his entire career with the Patriots means it should somehow be held against him.  Anyway, I pretty much agree with what mouse says.  Both players are all-time greats, both have had some help along the way, both make unbelievable plays, and both have helped to make teammates better players.     

 

I'll say this, I do believe that had Brady been drafted by the Lions or some other godawful team, he would not have turned into the great quarterback that he is today, even had he gotten his chance.  Maybe he has a Philip Rivers, or even Rothleisberger, Joe Flacco career, but he would not be in any discussion when talking about the all-time great QBs.  That said, I'm also quite sure that at this stage of his career, he could take an ok team and make them a Super Bowl contender, let's say the Titans  Rams.  But things might not look so pretty if he got traded to Jacksonville, where Manning probably turns them into a playoff team immediately.  This is not a fact of course, just my two cents.


Edited by Daniel, 01 August 2013 - 03:22 PM.

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#96 lucifer91

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:22 PM

Topic derailed...sorry guys, I don't really care too much about Brady vs Peyton discussion (and I am not going to block either of you either because I enjoy reading your Devils related posts).


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#97 mouse

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:28 PM

Topic derailed...sorry guys, I don't really care too much about Brady vs Peyton discussion (and I am not going to block either of you either because I enjoy reading your Devils related posts).

Sorry, offseason...


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#98 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:33 PM

Again, the Colts drafted a ton of (non Manning) players, and pretty quickly added Dungy. If you put Manning on the pre-Manning Colts, he would have had different teammates, which goes back to the point someone made about QBs getting a disproportionate amount of credit AND blame. Also, the Broncos made the playoffs (and actually won a game) the year before he got there with Tim Tebow, and much as Tebow gets a ton of credit, John Fox and the D were just as important, if not more, and both were still there when Manning got there. I'm not knocking Manning, and I obviously think he's a ton better than Tebow, but he's not any more of a savior than Brady. They're both great. They have both had help. They have both made everyone around them look better.

 

Even before Dungy got there, the Manning Colts were an elite team that just couldn't win the big game, which is really the essence of the clutchness debate. 

 

And let's not get too crazy about Tebowmania.  The Broncos were an 8-8 team that backed into the playoffs, and had basically no offense to speak of.  They got lucky again with a home match-up against a badly injured Steelers team, that got thumped the next time around (by TOM BRADY, yes I know).  You can't recreate the world, but we all know that had Tebow started the season last year, the Broncos would have been awful.  Elway certainly knew that.


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#99 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:33 PM

I am landing the plane and freeing the hostages.  Hijack over.

 

re:  Henrique, not really worried and never really was.  His contract is an odd one, in that his worth is so iffy.  His contract could either wind up being a bargain or very meh, depending on what he signs for.

 

The Brunner deal is the weird one...what is going on with that guy?  I don't hear his name linked to anyone at all anymore.


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#100 Daniel

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:53 PM

I am landing the plane and freeing the hostages.  Hijack over.

 

No it isn't...

 

 

 

 

The Brunner deal is the weird one...what is going on with that guy?  I don't hear his name linked to anyone at all anymore.

 


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