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Sabres Leafs Brawl - Clarkson Leaves the Bench


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#41 Triumph

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:18 PM

Side show? Without even this watered down version of protection(instigator, helmet, visor,  3 fights in a game rules) the players would be running around and boarding the snot out of anyone that can play. The amount of high sticks would also be increased, as well as low bridge hits, and slew footing. Most NHL players would tell you it would become more dangerous without having these guys in the game.  I agree that staged fights need to go, but there most certainly is a need for this element in the game.  It's easy for people that gauge the game on possession numbers(not a knock) to overlook this aspect because they do not understand what occurs at ice level. It's a tough place that is kept in check by the boogie men.  Everyone is scared of the boogeyman.

 

Instigating fights is illegal.  Slew foots, low bridges, and high sticks are also all illegal, and if intentional, suspendable plays.  NHL players have been told by the media and coaches that enforcers are necessary, but they are almost a non-entity at the NHL level.  They don't play critical minutes and they seldom fight anyone but each other.  I don't really see what protection they add - plenty of guys get run despite the presence (or non-presence) of an enforcer.  It's just not something teams need in this day and age, but it's going to take another generation of coaches and general managers for them to finally be banished from the league.  


Edited by Triumph, 23 September 2013 - 01:21 PM.

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#42 DJ Eco

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:06 PM

The amount of Leafs fans putting Clarkson on a pedestal after this is really disconcerting. They're a cult, if I've ever seen one. Not one mention of the real hero, Ashton, who flew right up to John Scott and pretty much took him down and neutralized the situation (before Clarkson jumped onto the ice).

 

I'm trying to be objective as possible, but really, when you examine the facts, the only clear-cut rules that were broken were broken by Clarkson and Kessel. Everything else is up for interpretation, including Scott's initial instigator. How many times does an instigator penalty get called and that's the end of the story, no suspension, just a standard penalty called. But Kessel and Clarkson break two very serious and CLEAR black and white rules. Try to tell a Leaf fan that, though.


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#43 BlueSkirt

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:29 PM

By the time Clarkson leaves the bench, Scott is already involved with someone other than that stick-swinging, stomach-poking Kessel.


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#44 hystyk28

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:57 PM

Instigating fights is illegal.  Slew foots, low bridges, and high sticks are also all illegal, and if intentional, suspendable plays.  NHL players have been told by the media and coaches that enforcers are necessary, but they are almost a non-entity at the NHL level.  They don't play critical minutes and they seldom fight anyone but each other.  I don't really see what protection they add - plenty of guys get run despite the presence (or non-presence) of an enforcer.  It's just not something teams need in this day and age, but it's going to take another generation of coaches and general managers for them to finally be banished from the league.  

 

 It's just not something teams need in this day and age, but it's going to take another generation of coaches and general managers for them to finally be banished from the league.  

 So says the guy the analyzes shots for and against. Go down to ice level and do some research instead of looking at spreadsheets, then you just might just understand the game a little better. Better yet, go get some skates and play the sport where you will not only see puck possession in action, but you will also learn to quickly respect the game and if you don't you better be ready to answer the bell.

 

I agree that the Scott's of the league are indeed on their way out in the next 3-5 years,but then I expect to see more of what you are starting to see now, the hybrid enforcer.  This is why Clarkson just got that fat paycheck.  However, if you don't have a hybrid teams are opting for a goon and now you have the Scott's of the world on the roster. Yet, with roster spots being value so highly, the hybrid is the enforcer of the future. 


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#45 capo

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:35 PM

This is why enforcers are necessary in this league.  You just can't have a guy like Scott run one of your super star players.  Kessel shouldn't have been out there with that goon with the Leafs having the last change.


Edited by capo, 23 September 2013 - 06:45 PM.

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#46 Devilsfan118

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:21 PM

Clarkson got his 10-games.  Sucks, but the rule is pretty clear.

Nothing like missing 12% of the season's games for your new team right off the bat.  Stupid decision Clarky.


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#47 Triumph

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:45 PM

 So says the guy the analyzes shots for and against. Go down to ice level and do some research instead of looking at spreadsheets, then you just might just understand the game a little better. Better yet, go get some skates and play the sport where you will not only see puck possession in action, but you will also learn to quickly respect the game and if you don't you better be ready to answer the bell.

 

I agree that the Scott's of the league are indeed on their way out in the next 3-5 years,but then I expect to see more of what you are starting to see now, the hybrid enforcer.  This is why Clarkson just got that fat paycheck.  However, if you don't have a hybrid teams are opting for a goon and now you have the Scott's of the world on the roster. Yet, with roster spots being value so highly, the hybrid is the enforcer of the future. 

 

Clarkson is not a hybrid enforcer.  He doesn't fight heavyweights, typically.  He fights players in his weight class, and he's fought less the more ice time he has gotten.  Clarkson is not stopping someone like John Scott from running the opposition's star, if he wanted to.

 

There's just zero evidence that these guys protect anything.  As Black Dog Hates Skunks put it:

 

"Colton Orr was on the ice last year when Kadri was a target and he stood by while Kadri ended up in a brawl, having to defend himself. When David Steckel knocked Crosby woozy the Pens' lineup that night included Engellund, Aaron Asham and Mike Rupp. When Marc Savard lost his career to Matt Cooke the guy who passed him the puck was Milan Lucic. When Taylor Hall fought Dorsett and Avery sucker punched Smid and Hemsky got run night after night Steve MacIntyre was sitting on the bench. He did not deter these actions, no more than Lucic stopped Cooke from ruining Savard's life."

 

If there wasn't an instigator rule maybe these guys do something, but as it stands, they just don't play critical minutes, so they're not on the ice when star players are being run.


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#48 maxpower

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:33 PM

"Hybrid enforcer".   LOL, Clarkson isn't anything remotely resembling an enforcer and never was.    They paid him to be a top 6 scoring winger, not for this BS.  There had to be *someone* on the ice that was capable of handling this.   If not, Carlyle is an idiot.

 

PS:  Scott isn't nearly as effective at this as his size makes people think he is.   Kessel would have survived if he man'd up and didn't start swinging his stick like an idiot.


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#49 ATLL765

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:38 PM

"Hybrid enforcer". LOL, Clarkson isn't anything remotely resembling an enforcer and never was. They paid him to be a top 6 scoring winger, not for this BS. There had to be *someone* on the ice that was capable of handling this. If not, Carlyle is an idiot.

PS: Scott isn't nearly as effective at this as his size makes people think he is. Kessel would have survived if he man'd up and didn't start swinging his stick like an idiot.



While I agree that Scott isn't the best fighter, being nearly a foot taller than your opponent is a giant advantage.
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#50 NJDevs4978

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:42 PM

max you're usually one of the smarter posters but that's really off the mark.  Scott's 6'8 270, Kessel's 6' 202.  One hit and Kessel's in never-never land.  And Scott may not be a good fighter but it ain't like Kessel fights 'at all' either.  I don't think someone that has 139 PIM's in 504 career NHL games is going to be confused for a heavyweight.


Edited by NJDevs4978, 23 September 2013 - 10:43 PM.

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#51 maxpower

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:42 PM

While I agree that Scott isn't the best fighter, being nearly a foot taller than your opponent is a giant advantage.

 

Lecavalier got stuck fighting Chara, he lost, and he lived.   If Kessel had a problem, switch wings.   It's a preseason game.    Seems to me everyone on the ice wanted a circus and they got just what they wanted.


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#52 hystyk28

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:46 PM

The argument being made is that goons are wasting a spot on the roster. This is why the NHL is moving toward the Barches of the league. And again I think it will gravitate toward guys like Clarkson, Simmonds, Prust,etc. Of course, as long as the big heavyweight exist, then this throws a wrench in downsizing fighters.

Again, its real simple, if there wasn't a need for these guys then they wouldn't be found all through the league. How do you measure events that never happen?

And yes, Clarkson made a huge mistake coming off the bench. I would say it is nearly as stupid as anyone ever thinking he is a top 6 forward.
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#53 maxpower

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:48 PM

max you're usually one of the smarter posters but that's really off the mark.  Scott's 6'8 270, Kessel's 6' 202.  One hit and Kessel's in never-never land.  And Scott may not be a 'good' fighter but it ain't like Kessel fights at all.

 

He's huge and he's a sh!tty fighter.    Just hug him or don't line up with him or hope your coach isn't a moron.   Two handing him ain't making the situation any better and then nudging him after it's over and he's tied up makes him look like a punk.   So basically he wanted it but didn't really want it.


The argument being made is that goons are wasting a spot on the roster. This is why the NHL is moving toward the Barches of the league. And again I think it will gravitate toward guys like Clarkson, Simmonds, Prust,etc. Of course, as long as the big heavyweight exist, then this throws a wrench in downsizing fighters.

Again, its real simple, if there wasn't a need for these guys then they wouldn't be found all through the league. How do you measure events that never happen?

And yes, Clarkson made a huge mistake coming off the bench. I would say it is nearly as stupid as anyone ever thinking he is a top 6 forward.

 

That's what he's paid to do.    No one pays that money for "enforcement", you can get those for 500K


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#54 Triumph

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:57 PM

The argument being made is that goons are wasting a spot on the roster. This is why the NHL is moving toward the Barches of the league. And again I think it will gravitate toward guys like Clarkson, Simmonds, Prust,etc. Of course, as long as the big heavyweight exist, then this throws a wrench in downsizing fighters.

Again, its real simple, if there wasn't a need for these guys then they wouldn't be found all through the league. How do you measure events that never happen?

And yes, Clarkson made a huge mistake coming off the bench. I would say it is nearly as stupid as anyone ever thinking he is a top 6 forward.

 

The people who are GMs and coaches by and large played when enforcers were thought to be necessary.  Is there a coach in the league whose playing career started post-instigator rule?  I don't think so.  Bench clearing brawls are over with.  There's cameras at every game and the league is much more stringent about suspensions - if you look at suspensions 25 years ago, they're a complete joke.

 

The idea behind an enforcer is that if the other team starts anything, there's a guy who is willing to take on anyone on the other team and can beat him or at least hold his own.  This is simply not true of people like Simmonds and Clarkson and Prust - they're not big enough to fight heavyweight players.

 

Most teams employ an enforcer but plenty do not and there does not seem to be a difference between the two.


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#55 hystyk28

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:07 PM

No, but as the league transitions to 4 lines of skill, maybe even opting to keep around a shootout specialist over a goon, you will see the Clarksons of the league handle the fighting. Also, by the time the cap goes up, 5m is not going to be a lot of money. I guarantee Clarkson doesn't end up in the top 6 unless there are numerous injuries.
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#56 DJ Eco

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:27 PM

You guys all keep repeating Clarkson over and over but we have a few on our team still. Carter, Bernier, Salvador, Zidlicky, maybe Olesz aren't afraid to show a mean streak. We all saw at least Carter and Salvador drop some people last year, Salvador in the home opener.

 

All about the hybrid, I agree.. Having someone out there who's  ONLY good (or decent) at fighting is a waste of a roster spot, and will go the way of the dinosaur by 2016.


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#57 Triumph

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:27 PM

No, but as the league transitions to 4 lines of skill, maybe even opting to keep around a shootout specialist over a goon, you will see the Clarksons of the league handle the fighting. Also, by the time the cap goes up, 5m is not going to be a lot of money. I guarantee Clarkson doesn't end up in the top 6 unless there are numerous injuries.

 

Again - these people cannot fight guys like Lucic, or the bigger defensemen around the league - they will get pummeled.  Granted, goons don't fight these people anyway, but on the rare occasion it happens, that's why GM's justify the inclusion of these players.

 

Believe what you want regarding Clarkson.  Clarkson is going to play with either Kadri or Bozak when he gets back and he'll definitely be playing on the power play.  They didn't sign him for all that money to have Nikolai Kulemin take his spot at even strength.  He'll play 16-17 minutes a night.


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#58 hystyk28

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:28 PM

Maybe I am not making myself clear. You will always have guys to drop the mitts. As the bottom 6 roster spots become more valuable, you will see the fighters transition to the guys like Clarkson. As I mentioned before, this transition is difficult when you have true goons in the league, as now it resembles an arms race. So teams have opted to either carry the goon or a try the best of both worlds by employing a more skilled fighter. We have 2 examples in NJ, Barch and Carter. I think Carter is a perfect example, as he can play and scrap. Of course we all know we aren't talking Probert style fighting, but I think this is the fighter of the future. In fact I feel bad for Ryan's knuckles this season as I expect a rise in his fighting majors.

Urbom dropped them tonight. The guys know there is a need and I would't be surprised if Stevens didn't send him out there to see what he had, which wasn't much.
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#59 devilsadvoc8

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 07:42 AM

Lots of idiocy on the ice for that one.  My listing of idiots in descending order:

 

1- Kessel - the worst of the lot.  Using a stick in the way he did is unforgivable to me.  He is intending to injure.  There is no defense for those actions. 

2- Clarkson- leaving the bench is also a dangerous play  It may force retaliation from the other bench and then a complete melee and the refs lose control.  He deserves every bit of that suspension.

3- Scott- I don't know what led up to that point but you aren't going to impress a coaching staff with your goon-attributes if you take on someone like Kessel.  At least find a somewhat equal target if you want to be a goon.


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#60 oconnellrules

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:20 AM

Clarkson you dumbass


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