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#61 mouse

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:10 PM

Not to dismiss Jersey at all, but I just want to stress again that northern NJ IS part of the NY sports region, just like much of northern Indiana is part of the Chicago sports region, the Pacific northwest is sometimes part of the Seattle sports region, much of the south is part of the Atlanta sports region, etc. In America (and this is different in Europe, where smaller communities can support a soccer team), our sports teams tend to be based out of cities, and fans identify with those teams if they're from the region, even if the teams don't mention them. It's not a slap in the face to the state I grew up in to say that I grew up a New York sports fan (even though I hated the Rags). Again, most of our parents grew up before NJ had teams. If we started watching sports with them (I did), we probably grew up on NY teams. Furthermore, the only sport in which NY and NJ are distinct fan bases is hockey, because both places have teams. If we include soccer as a major sport, NY currently has 5 major sports, so there are 4 sports in which New Yorkers and New Jerseyans, at least those from north Jersey, most likely share a team. I am therefore proud to call myself a New York sports fan unless the Devils are on, especially when my fellow New York sports fans, including many people from Jersey, Connecticut, and upstate represent themselves well, and, while Rags fans are idiots, most of them time, NY sports fans are great. I think NJ is unique to some degree, because we have an inferiority complex from being sh@t on. I have the same inferiority complex, but I don't let it ruin my love for/pride in NY. I've lived in NJ and Brooklyn. I love both for different reasons. I'm more likely to settle down in Brooklyn, but when people ask where I'm from, I say NJ with pride. If we sh!t on New York, we're no better than the people who sh!t on us. 

 

As for the Red Bulls, I would have no problem with them being the NJ Red Bulls, especially if the new team establishes a footprint in NY, but I also have no problem with them aligning themselves with the center of the sports region, just like the Giants and Jets did, and just like any number of other franchises did. We're closer to NYC than most of New York. There's nothing wrong with identifying with it. 


I can't believe how many people have so little respect for where they're from. I expect this stuff from an rb forum, not a devils one

Because disagreeing with your simplistic opinion must be disrespecting where we're from...


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#62 mouse

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:16 PM

 

I do harbor a decent amount of resentment towards the hate NJ gets from New Yorkers.. We've all heard that the only good thing about NJ is the view of NYC.. My buddy's friends from the city would not even consider living in Hoboken because "you really expect me to live in Jersey?!", so now he pays $1,600 a month in a 6 person concrete cell (pretty much that small) so that he can live in the city with them

 

 

Having lived in NY, NJ, and Ohio (and my brother lives in St. Louis), I actually think New Yorkers aren't the problem here. Most New Yorkers (not all, there are some douchebags, but a lot of them are NY transplants with inferiority complexes) appreciate NY for what it is. A lot of people I lived with and work with in NY see NJ as a better place to raise kids, a place to settle down, and a nice spot to explore on weekends. I've had people who have lived in NY their whole lives tell me about restaurants I grew up near that I'd never tried. People from outside the region are a lot more likely to make what exit jokes, or call us NY's dump (even though most locals know NY's most impressive dump is Staten Island, yeah Fresh Kills!). I hate the way the superbowl was covered until we made noise, I hate the skyline shots during our games. I hate the Nets for never embracing us when they had the chance, and leaving as soon as they got a building, even though they had an awesome building here. But I don't buy that any of that is New York's fault. NJ has a bad reputation. It's not fair. I get it. But a lot of that reputation comes from people who have never been here.


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Sumus Legio
You don't turn this around in a couple shifts. Its going to take a little time, but I know the guys will come back. Because I can see it. -- Jacques Lemaire

 

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#63 95Crash

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:06 AM

Not to dismiss Jersey at all, but I just want to stress again that northern NJ IS part of the NY sports region, just like much of northern Indiana is part of the Chicago sports region, the Pacific northwest is sometimes part of the Seattle sports region, much of the south is part of the Atlanta sports region, etc. In America (and this is different in Europe, where smaller communities can support a soccer team), our sports teams tend to be based out of cities, and fans identify with those teams if they're from the region, even if the teams don't mention them. It's not a slap in the face to the state I grew up in to say that I grew up a New York sports fan (even though I hated the Rags). Again, most of our parents grew up before NJ had teams. If we started watching sports with them (I did), we probably grew up on NY teams. Furthermore, the only sport in which NY and NJ are distinct fan bases is hockey, because both places have teams. If we include soccer as a major sport, NY currently has 5 major sports, so there are 4 sports in which New Yorkers and New Jerseyans, at least those from north Jersey, most likely share a team. I am therefore proud to call myself a New York sports fan unless the Devils are on, especially when my fellow New York sports fans, including many people from Jersey, Connecticut, and upstate represent themselves well, and, while Rags fans are idiots, most of them time, NY sports fans are great. I think NJ is unique to some degree, because we have an inferiority complex from being sh@t on. I have the same inferiority complex, but I don't let it ruin my love for/pride in NY. I've lived in NJ and Brooklyn. I love both for different reasons. I'm more likely to settle down in Brooklyn, but when people ask where I'm from, I say NJ with pride. If we sh!t on New York, we're no better than the people who sh!t on us. 

 

As for the Red Bulls, I would have no problem with them being the NJ Red Bulls, especially if the new team establishes a footprint in NY, but I also have no problem with them aligning themselves with the center of the sports region, just like the Giants and Jets did, and just like any number of other franchises did. We're closer to NYC than most of New York. There's nothing wrong with identifying with it. 


Because disagreeing with your simplistic opinion must be disrespecting where we're from...

 

To me, the issue is not about hating New York. I don't hate New York at all. My entire family (both parents' families) lived in NYC at one time. I was even born there before my family moved me to N.J. at age 1. I always enjoy visiting NYC. The historical buildings/landmarks, the restaurants, the theaters, etc. ... there is no other place in the world like it.

 

And I understand that northern New Jersey is part of the New York market -- just as southern New Jersey is part of the Philly market.

 

But all that being said, New Jersey is not New York. It's its own place, a state, equal in name recognition to Arizona, Colorado, Minnesota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah -- all states with pro sports teams that use their state name. And it has greater name recognition than Columbus, San Jose, Green Bay, Jacksonville, Chivas -- all places with pro sports teams that use their respective names.

 

I think that's why some New Jerseyans have a hard time understanding why so many people in the state so easily accept and defend sports teams that play here and use the NY name. They have no qualms about proudly proclaiming being from Jersey and feel that by encouraging N.J.'s sports teams to use the NY name it takes away from N.J.'s own identity or uniqueness -- our own identity.


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#64 DJ Eco

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:14 AM

If they had named the team the New Jersey Red Bulls or Newark Red Bulls those same young professionals from Manhattan and Brooklyn could still have come to the brand new arena/stadium.

 

Believe it or not, there are a lot of New Jersey Devils fans from New York who come to Prudential Center in Newark even though New York City has two hockey teams. Those fans don't seem to mind the N.J. name.

 

I really don't think so. "New Jersey" Devils works because it was a bold and ballsy move in the 1980s. And don't forget, the bold and ballsy move to make it a "New Jersey" team has been on the brink of failure many many times during our history. If it weren't for Lou, I have no doubt we'd be a Quebec team or somewhere else by now. Many of the kids who were fans during that era in the 80s or early 90s are in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, and have dispersed around the area: Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, Rockland County, NY... 

 

They still go to games because they're long-time Devils fans. Don't forget, it's only been 5-6 years that you can hop a PATH or NJ Transit train from Manhattan and go to a Devils game. This is a very new thing, but the franchise is not (it's a 31 year old thing). So the fanbase is there, and it's more or less established. My brother lived in Brooklyn and most recently in Manhattan and was one of those "young professionals going to a Devils game"; I work every day in Downtown Manhattan so I'm one of those too.

 

New York Red Bulls weren't going to come in here into this market, call themselves "New Jersey" and magically generate fan interest. With no competition in New York at the time, they needed as large a demographic grab as they could get. Being a New Jersey team, they wouldn't have been able to generate random interest in New York and the boroughs. I know tons of kids from Brooklyn and Queens that go to the games, who didn't use to go to NY/NJ Metrostars games. It's pretty telling.


Edited by DJ Eco, 31 October 2013 - 09:18 AM.

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#65 DJ Eco

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:28 AM

NJ has a bad reputation. It's not fair. I get it. But a lot of that reputation comes from people who have never been here.

 

SPOT ON... Most people making New Jersey jokes are douchebag Manhattan/Brooklyn transplants from throughout the U.S. that hated their hometowns/home situations so much they moved cross-country.

 

Think about who's working at these TV channels like A&E, TLC, Bravo, MTV... You think local New Yorkers and New Jerseyans are getting TV or media writing jobs in the city's media sector? Hell no! Some wiry bitch from Kansas or Wisconsin, with a chip on her shoulder because she used to get made fun of, who lives in Brooklyn now with very similar people who think they're awesome because they're "making it" (except, they usually move back home after a few years because they can't cut it here), was probably the one who wrote the original "Jersey Shore" show pitch. And it makes me laugh my ass off to see those types of hipster people moving into Jersey City, and soon Newark.

 

These shows came at the right place and right time and now people around the world have a very specific and negative image of "New Jersey" like we're a bunch of clowns. I don't think New Yorkers are to fault for that, we're all pretty much similar, in the same boat.


Edited by DJ Eco, 31 October 2013 - 09:30 AM.

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#66 DJ Eco

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:33 AM

But all that being said, New Jersey is not New York. It's its own place, a state, equal in name recognition to Arizona, Colorado, Minnesota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah -- all states with pro sports teams that use their state name.

 

The common thread are those are all larger states (in area) than New Jersey. You don't have your pick of 2-3 major football teams or baseball teams or hockey teams to go see within 45-60 minutes of your house. I think geography has A LOT more to do with it than we'd like to admit. 

 

New Jersey was called "the Crossroads of the American Revolution" and geographically, that still holds up as far as sports loyalties are concerned. We're such a small state, I don't see it changing anytime soon.


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#67 mouse

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:33 AM

 

But all that being said, New Jersey is not New York. It's its own place, a state, equal in name recognition to Arizona, Colorado, Minnesota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah -- all states with pro sports teams that use their state name. And it has greater name recognition than Columbus, San Jose, Green Bay, Jacksonville, Chivas -- all places with pro sports teams that use their respective names.

 

I think that's why some New Jerseyans have a hard time understanding why so many people in the state so easily accept and defend sports teams that play here and use the NY name. They have no qualms about proudly proclaiming being from Jersey and feel that by encouraging N.J.'s sports teams to use the NY name it takes away from N.J.'s own identity or uniqueness -- our own identity.

And that's why the Devils are New Jersey. They're a distinct team, with a distinct fan base, that is separate from New York. We're not the Rangers. The Red Bulls are not a Jersey team. They're the whole markets team, and that market is New York, a market which includes places like Connecticut as well. I admit NJ has more of a claim, because the buildings are here, but I don't feel that calling a team New York trivializes NJ, unless it's a situation like Devils Rangers. It'll be interesting to see how things shake down when the new team comes to Queens, because the Red Bulls probably don't plan to concede the NY market they had dibs on beforehand.


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You don't turn this around in a couple shifts. Its going to take a little time, but I know the guys will come back. Because I can see it. -- Jacques Lemaire

 

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#68 The 29th Pick

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:50 AM

I asked this before and nobody really commented, but what if the new owners changed the name of the Devils to the NY Devils ??

it would piss me off personally


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#69 Jerzey Devil

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:04 AM

I asked this before and nobody really commented, but what if the new owners changed the name of the Devils to the NY Devils ??

it would piss me off personally

 

 I don't think that will ever happen but I was talking with some people I work with and they brought up the new owners changing the name the Devils like the Devil Rays (Rays) did a few years back. 

 

For starters, I work/live in Orlando. Still part of the bible belt IMO. Anyway I told him that the Jersey Devil is part of New Jersey's folklore and it has nothing to do with religion. 

 

Boy would that suck though. Lets be glad NJ isn't a crazy religious state like Florida or any other Southern state.


Edited by Jerzey Devil, 31 October 2013 - 11:05 AM.

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#70 The 29th Pick

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:11 AM

 I don't think that will ever happen but I was talking with some people I work with and they brought up the new owners changing the name the Devils like the Devil Rays (Rays) did a few years back. 

 

For starters, I work/live in Orlando. Still part of the bible belt IMO. Anyway I told him that the Jersey Devil is part of New Jersey's folklore and it has nothing to do with religion. 

 

Boy would that suck though. Lets be glad NJ isn't a crazy religious state like Florida or any other Southern state.

There were a bunch of groups in Jersey that didnt want Devils as the name (even though its a folklore creature) as you said.

but I was really talikng about adding the NY and taking away the NJ (I dont think it would happen but ....)


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#71 roomtemp

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:21 AM

 I don't think that will ever happen but I was talking with some people I work with and they brought up the new owners changing the name the Devils like the Devil Rays (Rays) did a few years back. 

 

For starters, I work/live in Orlando. Still part of the bible belt IMO. Anyway I told him that the Jersey Devil is part of New Jersey's folklore and it has nothing to do with religion. 

 

Boy would that suck though. Lets be glad NJ isn't a crazy religious state like Florida or any other Southern state.

 

I think the Devil Rays' change was more because there are few two word nicknames for sports teams plus to change the culture of losing they had going on since they started as the Devil Rays. It'd be like if we were called the New Jersey Pine Devils (I couldn't think of a better version) and then we dropped the pine after 1991. I went to a Catholic school and never heard any of the nuns ever be offended by the name. Hell we had fundraising group games that they ran every year. Tried that with the Nets once and it really didn't go well.

 

I don't see what benefit the Devils would get switching the NJ to NY if they ever were to do so. It'd piss off the current New Jersey fanbase, there wouldn't be many if any converts now from NY, and NJ is an under serve in this area. Why go after the pie two other hockey teams are trying to get? If the Nets didn't move to Brooklyn but went with us to Newark they'd probably be more aggressive in doing so as well.


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#72 Chuck the Duck

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:39 AM

There were a bunch of groups in Jersey that didnt want Devils as the name (even though its a folklore creature) as you said.

but I was really talikng about adding the NY and taking away the NJ (I dont think it would happen but ....)

Being a professional team from NJ is the main identity of this club and I can't envision any scenario where changing the name would happen or work to any benefit for the ownership group herein.  If the new owners ever did that, it would be a direct slap in the face to 95-99% of this fanbase.  I personally would still support the team, but would give up my season tickets in protest.  At the end of the day, the only things we as fans can do to show our displeasure is voice our concerns and, when things are not changed, stop spending money on the team.  Like almost everything else in life, money talks.

 

It will be interesting to see how the Red Bulls handle NYCFC starting play in a few years since that team will actually play and train in NYC.  I am willing to bet the new club will market itself as NY's only true MLS club, and tout their roots and ties to the city and state to draw fans.  


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#73 The 29th Pick

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:42 AM

Being a professional team from NJ is the main identity of this club and I can't envision any scenario where changing the name would happen or work to any benefit for the ownership group herein.  If the new owners ever did that, it would be a direct slap in the face to 95-99% of this fanbase.  I personally would still support the team, but would give up my season tickets in protest.  At the end of the day, the only things we as fans can do to show our displeasure is voice our concerns and, when things are not changed, stop spending money on the team.  Like almost everything else in life, money talks.

 

It will be interesting to see how the Red Bulls handle NYCFC starting play in a few years since that team will actually play and train in NYC.  I am willing to bet the new club will market itself as NY's only true MLS club, and tout their roots and ties to the city and state to draw fans.  

where will they be playing?


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#74 mouse

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 02:57 PM

I asked this before and nobody really commented, but what if the new owners changed the name of the Devils to the NY Devils ??

it would piss me off personally

I'd be pissed. The Nets are my least favorite basketball team for the way they shat on Jersey. When you're the NJ team and there is a separate, established New York team, I feel like you should respect your fans. I don't have a problem with the Jets, Giants, Red Bulls, because they're as much New York's teams as ours, so they can/should, at least from a business perspective, represent NY, which is the center of the market. The Devils are Jersey's team.


where will they be playing?

Probably Flushing Meadows, though there's been some opposition.


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You don't turn this around in a couple shifts. Its going to take a little time, but I know the guys will come back. Because I can see it. -- Jacques Lemaire

 

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#75 DevsMan84

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:08 PM

I'd be pissed. The Nets are my least favorite basketball team for the way they shat on Jersey. When you're the NJ team and there is a separate, established New York team, I feel like you should respect your fans. I don't have a problem with the Jets, Giants, Red Bulls, because they're as much New York's teams as ours, so they can/should, at least from a business perspective, represent NY, which is the center of the market. The Devils are Jersey's team.


Probably Flushing Meadows, though there's been some opposition.

 

 

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#76 newarkdev01

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:13 PM

Also the 49ers are moving to Santa Clara next year.

and still calling themselves the San Francisco 49ers.


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#77 eaglejelly

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:21 PM

and still calling themselves the San Francisco 49ers.

 

The Raiders will be playing significant closer to San Francisco than the 49ers


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#78 DJ Eco

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:22 PM

It will be interesting to see how the Red Bulls handle NYCFC starting play in a few years since that team will actually play and train in NYC.  I am willing to bet the new club will market itself as NY's only true MLS club, and tout their roots and ties to the city and state to draw fans.  

 

I doubt it. As someone who's involved in a lot of New York City-area construction, I can tell you right now, the chances of them debuting in the league in 2015 (which they maintain as their start date) is slim to none. And the chances of them even playing in New York City limits after all of this is done is pretty slim as well, definitely not happening within the next 5-6 years at least. 

 

The Flushing Meadows Plan is already losing ground and their next "sure fire" deal is them sharing the grounds with Yankees Stadium, which I think will also be impossible. NYCFC will have deep pockets, considering it's owned by the Yankees and Manchester City, but no amount of money will make the construction process and possibly public funding or rezoning process any less unbearable. 

 

I'm severely doubting altogether that they'll be playing in New York City at all in the next 5+ years. I just don't see it happening; anyone with an eye toward construction and real estate and development in the city can see that it's really doubtful. I really don't understand why they announced the franchise so early in such haste this year. They trademarked the name of the team in early April and then let out press releases several weeks later!! Such a rush job, but in essence they have no idea what they're doing.


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#79 dmann422

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:19 PM

Don't really follow soccer unless it's World Cup time, but just came to post that as a northern nj native, I still consider myself a quasi new-Yorker in the sense that when people ask me where I'm from my stock response is "New Jersey, just outside NYC"

I'm a diehard devils fan because they embrace jersey, but I also support the jets giants and mets because I'm also proud of my NYC ties, even if New Yorkers look down on me as a jersey guy.

To me the worst thing is trying to refute the jersey shore and real housewives stigma every jersey native now gets.
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#80 thecoffeecake

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:24 PM

The senators, 49ers, pistons, whoever else, don't play in what can be considered separate sports markets. The only comparable situation is the whole Anaheim/LA thing the angels deal with. And even still, they have kept Anaheim in the name. And furthermore, Anaheim isn't nearly a distinct a place our have as distinct a culture from that of LA than we have from that of new York. I'm not from new York, I have never considered myself a new yorker, so I won't support this team if they choose to locate in the place where I come from and identify elsewhere. That's the biggest disrespect as far as I'm concerned. If they want to market to new York, they can draw their fans from new York
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