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The Pete Deboer Thread


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#61 SMantzas

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:44 PM

DeBoer put Josefson in over Sykora in the 2012 playoffs.  He put Larsson in over Harrold in the 2012 playoffs.  The idea that he is categorically wedded to veterans over young players is false.

 

It's one of those things:  if it affects your game to be taken out like that, then the problem is on your end and not on the coach's.  It's one thing to play well and to be 'punished' by being benched, it's another to make mistakes and be benched.  The goal is eradicating the sort of mistakes that lead to benching. 

 

It takes a while to play yourself out of the coach's good graces.  Josefson himself got over 20 games in 2012-13 to do so - he was playing a lot at the beginning of that season, too.

I agree that it's up to they young players to fix their mistakes, but it seems like there are certain players who are either beyond reproach or get a much longer leash.  Gionta, Volchenkov and Salvador(e) come to mind in this regard. If Gionta didn't get scratched when Deboer was shuffling guys in and out last year, well, I don't have much hope. I don't look too much into the Carter benching because he was the only plausible solution to get Olesz in the lineup. I suppose Deboer giving Volchenkov 13 minutes against the Canucks could mean something


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#62 NewarkDevil5

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:54 PM

I agree that it's up to they young players to fix their mistakes, but it seems like there are certain players who are either beyond reproach or get a much longer leash.  Gionta, Volchenkov and Salvador(e) come to mind in this regard. If Gionta didn't get scratched when Deboer was shuffling guys in and out last year, well, I don't have much hope. I don't look too much into the Carter benching because he was the only plausible solution to get Olesz in the lineup. I suppose Deboer giving Volchenkov 13 minutes against the Canucks could mean something

 

Him being tied to Gionta to me is a problem when Gionta's a -3 after 4 games (3 of them being decided by 1 goal) and is losing almost 75% of the faceoffs he's taking.


Edited by NewarkDevil5, 10 October 2013 - 12:54 PM.

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#63 SMantzas

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:01 PM

Him being tied to Gionta to me is a problem when Gionta's a -3 after 4 games (3 of them being decided by 1 goal) and is losing almost 75% of the faceoffs he's taking.

Standard stats, advanced statistics- he plain sucks
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#64 Daniel

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:45 PM

Completely disagree. Tortorella was the exact opposite of DeBoer in this regard.

 

Tortorella gave a shot to a young McDonaugh. Kid took the opportunity, and played his heart out for his coach. Similarly, young guys like Stepan, Hagelin, John Moore last year, and even Del Zotto a few years ago, were treated by Tortorella like men, not kids, and honestly looked like some of the Rangers' best players on any given night (aside from MDZ past couple years). He gave them responsibility and held them to the same standard of accountability that he held older guys like Gaborik (at the time) , Dubinsky (at the time), and Richards.

 

I don't think DeBoer should do what Tortorella did, I mean, we see how that ended. But a middle ground of letting the kids wear the man pants and treated with respect, while not being afraid to sit a veteran, somewhere along that middle point is what DeBoer should be working towards. This seniority bullsh!t isn't working. There's only so far a veteran presence can take a team.

 

DeBoer is more or less responsible for Adam Henrique, a third round pick that virtually all prospect evaluators felt was a borderline NHLer, being $24 million richer.  So it's clear that DeBoer does not have anything against younger players. 

 

Stepan and McDonough earned being "treated like men" through being excellent or arguably elite players.  Even the types that are most optimistic about Josefson and Loktionov can't think they'll be close to how good Stepan is.  And even though Larsson has the pedigree to be at the level of a McDonough, the fact remains that Larsson has not performed nearly as well as McDonough did the moment he got traded to the Rags, and by all accounts, will never be as good.  In fact, Larsson is already looking like he'll turn out to be significantly worse than two defenseman from his draft class, Hamilton and Brodin, if he isn't already.  As I've said, at some point, Larsson has to take off the diapers and deserve not to be benched.  He's been given plenty of opportunities thus far, with little to show for it.  Being a high draft pick only gets you so far.


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#65 CarterforPresident

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:57 PM

Loki out..gio still in...IMA cry..does deboer want us to lose:(
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#66 DJ Eco

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:17 PM

DeBoer is more or less responsible for Adam Henrique, a third round pick that virtually all prospect evaluators felt was a borderline NHLer, being $24 million richer.  So it's clear that DeBoer does not have anything against younger players. 

 

Stepan and McDonough earned being "treated like men" through being excellent or arguably elite players.  Even the types that are most optimistic about Josefson and Loktionov can't think they'll be close to how good Stepan is.  And even though Larsson has the pedigree to be at the level of a McDonough, the fact remains that Larsson has not performed nearly as well as McDonough did the moment he got traded to the Rags, and by all accounts, will never be as good.  In fact, Larsson is already looking like he'll turn out to be significantly worse than two defenseman from his draft class, Hamilton and Brodin, if he isn't already.  As I've said, at some point, Larsson has to take off the diapers and deserve not to be benched.  He's been given plenty of opportunities thus far, with little to show for it.  Being a high draft pick only gets you so far.

 

I don't know about that, man... I've seen nothing worse done by Larsson than I see continuously done game after game by Volchenkov, Salvador, Zidlicky, and now Harrold; and that's what's disconcerting. Kid's 20 years old and we're holding him to a higher standard than our team's captain. Both the fans and our coach is doing this, and this kid's gonna run out the back door when his contract is up and be excel elsewhere.

 

I'll give DeBoer the accolade of bringing up the level of Adam Henrique. Not related to youth, but I'll also give DeBoer the CBGB line two years ago.

 

But we're getting dangerously old and only dressing/skating a few kids, and these kids are getting treated like crap; they're gonna bolt for the door when their contracts are up, and Lou and our coach need to start thinking about that. Fayne, Larsson, Josefson, Tedenby, maybe Loktionov soon are all disgruntled kids on a team of underachieving 35 year olds and it'll catch up to us if they don't start seeing some playing time...


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#67 maxpower

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:21 PM

Let's not go nuts and call Stephen Gionta capable, he's reverted to 10-11 JAG form.   Tim Sestito can do this.   Cam would at least fight someone twice and remove himself from the game.


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#68 Triumph

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

Let's not go nuts and call Stephen Gionta capable, he's reverted to 10-11 JAG form.   Tim Sestito can do this.   Cam would at least fight someone twice and remove himself from the game.

 

I was being generous, but again, I don't think the coach is blind.  He gives longer leashes to players with longer history.  It will not be long before Gionta is on the outside if he keeps this up - trouble is he has to play poorly for another 10 games for it to happen regularly (and his replacement has to play well).


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#69 nessus

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:38 PM

I'm just nervous that once he scores a goal, it'll buy him a lot more time. And Gionta has had quite a few lucky goals in his time here, iirc.


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#70 maxpower

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:46 PM

I'm just nervous that once he scores a goal, it'll buy him a lot more time. And Gionta has had quite a few lucky goals in his time here, iirc.

 

To score a goal, one must take a shot.    So until he starts shooting, I'm not really concerned about that.    His game this year is losing faceoffs, getting lost in the wash in the defensive zone, and taking the body.   Nothing else.


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#71 NJDevs4978

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:07 PM

DeBoer put Josefson in over Sykora in the 2012 playoffs.  He put Larsson in over Harrold in the 2012 playoffs.  The idea that he is categorically wedded to veterans over young players is false.

 

It's one of those things:  if it affects your game to be taken out like that, then the problem is on your end and not on the coach's.  It's one thing to play well and to be 'punished' by being benched, it's another to make mistakes and be benched.  The goal is eradicating the sort of mistakes that lead to benching. 

 

It takes a while to play yourself out of the coach's good graces.  Josefson himself got over 20 games in 2012-13 to do so - he was playing a lot at the beginning of that season, too.

 

Larsson played 5/24 games in the postseason, Harrold played a lot more than that.  Josefson played seven games in the postseason and then got sat again in the Finals.

 

I'm all for punishing players as long as the punishment's equal.  Volch can make all these idiotic pinches/mistakes and almost never get benched because he's a vet who happens to be lefty, while anyone under 25 makes a mistake and grabs pine for two weeks.  It's absolutely comical three recent first-round picks (Larsson, Josefson, Tedenby) will probably be sitting upstairs tomorrow, along with Loiktionov.  It's also comical that when Loiktionov is removed you don't even insert Josefson THEN.  If he's that non-valuable to you then you might as well free him from jail and let Oatsie have him too, he'll probably use him.


Edited by NJDevs4978, 10 October 2013 - 03:09 PM.

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#72 maxpower

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:17 PM

The funny thing with Josefson is that it really looked like he had a good preseason, then he got frozen and is obviously thought of as the last guy on the bench.


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#73 NJDevs4978

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:18 PM

Plus if you're not going to use these guys in the first week of the season then you sure as **** ain't using them when the games actually start getting more vital.  Of course by then Pete could be out of a job if he keeps floundering and it's possible he's feeling heat from upstairs, hence going even more 'vet or die' than usual.


Edited by NJDevs4978, 10 October 2013 - 03:19 PM.

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#74 Triumph

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:13 PM

Plus if you're not going to use these guys in the first week of the season then you sure as **** ain't using them when the games actually start getting more vital.  Of course by then Pete could be out of a job if he keeps floundering and it's possible he's feeling heat from upstairs, hence going even more 'vet or die' than usual.

 

This doesn't make any sense at all.  Peter Harrold wasn't used day 1 of the season in 2011-12.  Indeed, he wasn't even on the roster until near the end of the season.  Same with Stephen Gionta, who won a spot and then didn't lose it when Jacob Josefson came back.

 

Lou talks about it all the time, you need more than 20 guys if you're going to be doing anything.  I don't like Josefson sitting, but if he does it a little longer they can sneak him down to the AHL for a conditioning stint if they want.


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#75 BigZ

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:49 PM

If you can explain how Stephen Gionta is better than Josefson, I'll back off. Until then, I think Deboer should be criticized


He doesn't have much to work with.
They're pretty much they exact same player only Gio, although smaller, is a tougher player.
They both shouldn't be in the NHL.
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#76 nessus

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:32 PM

He doesn't have much to work with.
They're pretty much they exact same player only Gio, although smaller, is a tougher player.
They both shouldn't be in the NHL.

 

You should be a lawyer. This, to me, looks like, "Gionta is better just because he's better." There's no mention of Josefson being a skilled player, or knowing how to position himself defensively, or knowing how to pass well, or set up plays, etc.

 

Also, I think the Urbom fiasco shows that sneaking players to the AHL isn't a great option, especially if they mean something to the organization. Oates could use him on the 3rd line I bet.


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#77 Triumph

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:05 PM

You should be a lawyer. This, to me, looks like, "Gionta is better just because he's better." There's no mention of Josefson being a skilled player, or knowing how to position himself defensively, or knowing how to pass well, or set up plays, etc.

 

Also, I think the Urbom fiasco shows that sneaking players to the AHL isn't a great option, especially if they mean something to the organization. Oates could use him on the 3rd line I bet.

 

A conditioning stint doesn't require waivers.


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#78 Mike Brown

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:27 PM

Can someone please explain to me why Gionta is so beloved by Deboer?


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#79 ATLL765

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:44 PM

Can someone please explain to me why Gionta is so beloved by Deboer?

Because he's like Rudy, the perfect underdog story. And he got lucky scoring a few goals.


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#80 thefiestygoat

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:01 PM

A conditioning stint doesn't require waivers.

Is there a certain amount of time a team has to wait before they can send a player on a conditioning stint? When I looked it up all I found is that a player can only be loaned out for conditioning for up to 14 consecutive days. Nothing about how much time a NHL team would have to wait to make such a move.


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