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#201 Devil Dan 56

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:17 AM

IMO Devils are victims of their own success to some degree. Larsson might be slightly better than Greene some day, but Greene was undrafted. So was Rafa. Fayne we picked up in the 5th round. Even Martin was a second rounder. Since we've had such success with late picks, and since Nieds was so good when we used a top 5 pick on a dman, we have this idea that when we commit to a d-man with the number 4 pick, he's gonna be a superstar, when really, there aren't many superstars in any draft. We got a player who will probably be a reliable, boring (in a good way, mostly) pro for a long time, assuming we don't butcher his development. That's not bad.

 

This is a great way of summing it up. I think people need to step back and realize there are many levels between "elite" and "bust".


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#202 Colorado Rockies 1976

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:23 AM

This is a great way of summing it up. I think people need to step back and realize there are many levels between "elite" and "bust".

 

You'll hear the B-word thrown around for a while...but if he turns into a solid defenseman with a strong (but not necessarily highlight material) skillset, fans will start to appreciate him for what he is.  I think the fact that he was being considered as a potential #1 has a lot of people blowing up expectations and dreaming big.  Once people hear "Top 5 Pick", the first thing many of them expect is pretty scoresheet numbers (especially on offense).  Larsson is not very likely to be that kind of guy. 


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#203 Daniel

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:26 AM

This is a great way of summing it up. I think people need to step back and realize there are many levels between "elite" and "bust".

 

"Bust" is a relative term.  If Reece Scarlett never makes it into the NHL, no one will think of him as a "bust".  Meanwhile, Erik Johnson will have a fairly nice NHL career, but he'll get that label.

 

It all has to do with where someone was drafted.  If Eric Gelinas turns into a solid NHL defenseman for the Devils, that's a success.  If that's what Larsson amounts to, I can live with it, but it's a disappointment.  It doesn't have much to do with value we've gotten from other low drafted/undrafted defesemen.  

 

In the same way, if we somehow won the Connor McDavid sweepstakes next year, and all he turns out to be is Travis Zajac,it would be enormously deflating to say the least, even though we would have still ended up with a good player.  It doesn't have anything to do with drafting a guy like Elias in the second round way back when.   


Edited by Daniel, 18 October 2013 - 10:29 AM.

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#204 SMantzas

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:05 AM

"Bust" is a relative term.  If Reece Scarlett never makes it into the NHL, no one will think of him as a "bust".  Meanwhile, Erik Johnson will have a fairly nice NHL career, but he'll get that label.

 

It all has to do with where someone was drafted.  If Eric Gelinas turns into a solid NHL defenseman for the Devils, that's a success.  If that's what Larsson amounts to, I can live with it, but it's a disappointment.  It doesn't have much to do with value we've gotten from other low drafted/undrafted defesemen.  

 

In the same way, if we somehow won the Connor McDavid sweepstakes next year, and all he turns out to be is Travis Zajac,it would be enormously deflating to say the least, even though we would have still ended up with a good player.  It doesn't have anything to do with drafting a guy like Elias in the second round way back when.   

I think the best way to look at it is by having 3 clear, concise categories: Success, Disappointment and Bust

 

Success- Players who meet or even surpass their Pre-draft projections

 

Crosby, Ovechkin, Tavares, E Kane

 

Disappointment- Players who still have nice NHL careers, but ultimately fall short of what they were expected to do

 

E Johnson, Olesz, Viktor Kozlov, Benoit Pouliot

 

Bust- Total failure, barely played NHL games or in some cases, none at all

 

Filatov, Picard, Jessiman


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#205 nessus

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:17 PM

Larsson might be slightly better than Greene some day? Before anyone goes ahead and accepts this, I'd like to remind you all about Alex Pietrangelo, the 4th overall pick from 2008 (a year that had a few really good D prospects ranked in the top 10), a defenseman everyone hopes Larsson will be as good as in the future. He's essentially 3 years ahead of Larsson, but has only played 3 full seasons.

 

At Larsson's age, Pietrangelo was starting his first NHL season that would last him more than 10 games. As we know, Larsson already has two of those. I'm sure Blues fans didn't give up on Alex when he couldn't make it in the NHL 2 years after being drafted, but was still able to put up really great numbers in the OHL. We should not be writing off Larsson as a bust or as a player whose ceiling is a slightly upgraded Andy Greene. And Larsson was even able to put up some good numbers in the AHL during the lockout.

 

P.K. Subban is another player who took three years before playing a full NHL season.

 

Unless you're someone like Drew Doughty, I don't think it's fair to judge a defenseman's ceiling at the age of 20.


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#206 Triumph

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:39 PM

yeah for the love of god let's calm things down.

 

What I mean in my view, short term and long-term of Larsson's development is that IMO he's lacking some "stock" abilities / skills that are in most cases "in you". 

 

By "stock" abilities / skills let me break down them by how I see it:

 

Speed / Skating: I honestly think speed is something you have or you don't. That's not saying you can become a faster skater but I don't think that a slow / average skater can become a really fast / strong skater with time. I do think skating can improve drastically though but again, some guy have it in them, they are just gifted fast skaters.

 

Grit / Heart / Leadership: Thats something you can't teach, it's something you have in you. It can rub on others and give them small boost but it's still another "stock" skill IMO that you have or you don't.

 

Hockey IQ / Vision: Thats something that obviously you develop with experience and that CAN improve. But again some players have it stock it's simply in them, again they are gifted. 

 

Stickwork: I'll just throw this all in one basket as i think its similar and to save some typing... Stick handling, Shot accuracy, passing, heavy shot, getting shot through traffic etc etc. Thats a skill that you definitely need to put lots of work and time in but that you can improv. Again some are simply gifted with it.

 

So bottom line i guess what i'm trying to say, MOST great players we're"gifted" with a certain skill who made them a step above others. Either it was one of a few elite level skill that was compensate from lack of other average aspects of their game. Or it was a mix of many above average skills making a player that great. Those skills we're mostly already visible on draft day.

 

So what i'm getting at with Larsson is that so far I don't see an already established elite skill who could compensate his lack of skills who may or probably never come or don't improve greatly. That's what my concern is. I KNOW he's young, his positioning, hockey IQ, vision will get better with time. But it's still really up in the air if he'll improve in other area (area that most guys his age already have like speed, grit, heart etc etc again IMO you have it or not), so we're all waiting for him to take the next step, but we're waiting to see what exactly? is it seeing him making less mistakes or him getting better at other areas of his game?

 

So if i can just now explain my Subban example, i was not comparing him to Larsson, all i was saying is that since his junior days, we could SEE his speed, grit, shot, determination etc etc it was already there when he stepped in the league, it's not something that we had to wait years of development to see. He had to work on other areas where you can indeed improve which is mostly between your ears, which was HIS problem.

 

We know already what Gelinas, Severson and Merril can bring in term of speed, offensive production, grit etc etc in the long run. what made them the kind of player they are is already established. It's more a matter of will it translate to the NHL. It's not as much "up in the air" as Larsson. Obviously seeing the kid step in the league at 18 is a damn good indicator and seeing he can play lots of minutes already. Thats putting him above Gelinas, Severson, Merril of course. 

 

I really hope this is more clear cause i'm really tired of even trying to explain myself. 

 

Guys who aren't particularly gifted in one area can still be really effective defensemen.  Someone like Teppo Numminen put up a ton of great seasons. He was top 10 in D scoring a few years so I think he's better than Larsson, but I am seeing glimmers of what Larsson will be in 3-4 years these last few games.  

 

I don't agree about speed - yeah, players don't go from slow to fast.  But players develop that extra gear - it happened with Parise and Elias.  One training camp they showed up and they were just way better than the year before.  They were faster to pucks, they were able to generate more shots, etc.  Larsson is figuring out how to read the play - his indecision at the point is because he's still not acclimated to the league.  In a few years he will have an idea what he wants to do with the puck before he gets it, and that's when he'll be a positive contributor offensively.  It's early but he is generating more shots this year.


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#207 SterioDesign

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:49 PM

Guys who aren't particularly gifted in one area can still be really effective defensemen.  Someone like Teppo Numminen put up a ton of great seasons. He was top 10 in D scoring a few years so I think he's better than Larsson, but I am seeing glimmers of what Larsson will be in 3-4 years these last few games.  

 

I don't agree about speed - yeah, players don't go from slow to fast.  But players develop that extra gear - it happened with Parise and Elias.  One training camp they showed up and they were just way better than the year before.  They were faster to pucks, they were able to generate more shots, etc.  Larsson is figuring out how to read the play - his indecision at the point is because he's still not acclimated to the league.  In a few years he will have an idea what he wants to do with the puck before he gets it, and that's when he'll be a positive contributor offensively.  It's early but he is generating more shots this year.

 

True but can you agree that what i said made in most part sense? Like someone pointed it out its all about expectations really if Larsson would have been drafted in the 3rd round i couldnt care about where he is now.

 

But in the situation the team is now and looking at where all our first round picks of the last 10 years are now... it's not unfair as a fan to fvcking hope Larsson turns out to be the franchise Dman he was said to be when he got drafted. 


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#208 ATLL765

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:51 PM

True but can you agree that what i said made in most part sense? Like someone pointed it out its all about expectations really if Larsson would have been drafted in the 3rd round i couldnt care about where he is now.

 

But in the situation the team is now and looking at where all our first round picks of the last 10 years are now... it's not unfair as a fan to fvcking hope Larsson turns out to be the franchise Dman he was said to be when he got drafted. 

Not really, so long as he manages to become a top 4 d-man.


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#209 Anhkheg

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:05 PM

IMO, the problem here is not Larsson, its PDB.


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#210 Triumph

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:22 PM

True but can you agree that what i said made in most part sense? Like someone pointed it out its all about expectations really if Larsson would have been drafted in the 3rd round i couldnt care about where he is now.

 

But in the situation the team is now and looking at where all our first round picks of the last 10 years are now... it's not unfair as a fan to fvcking hope Larsson turns out to be the franchise Dman he was said to be when he got drafted. 

 

If he was drafted in the 3rd round you'd be doing backflips.  This is his Y+3 draft year and he's already played 100 NHL games at a decent level?  It's not unfair to hope that, it is unfair to expect that, or to be massively disappointed if he's not what you think he should be.


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#211 maxpower

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:56 PM

Per TG, he's scratched tomorrow because... well, I'm not sure why he's scratched.    They just need to realize they've lost Fayne at this point, short of a coaching change and him playing 100% of the games he's available for.


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#212 coldply123

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:58 PM

Per TG, he's scratched tomorrow because... well, I'm not sure why he's scratched. They just need to realize they've lost Fayne at this point, short of a coaching change and him playing 100% of the games he's available for.


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#213 DJ Eco

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:01 PM

I just..... don't know............ why Harrold's still in? Am I losing my mind? Has he done something I missed? I've watched every second of every game.


Edited by DJ Eco, 18 October 2013 - 02:01 PM.

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#214 Devilsfan118

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:02 PM

PDB is really just doing his best to piss the fans off, at this point.  

Well, the fans, and his younger players.


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#215 maxpower

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:04 PM

I think honestly he's trying to pull a balancing act with him and Fayne.    But playing Fayne 20 times this season + injury games isn't going to keep him happy.  So, why even bother?   Obviously no one else is coming out of the lineup.  

 

The explanation for this scratch must have been epic.   "Well, there's some things you could have done better out there."   "Like what, stop some shots?"


Edited by maxpower, 18 October 2013 - 02:04 PM.

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#216 third man in

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:04 PM

I just..... don't know............ why Harrold's still in? Am I losing my mind? Has he done something I missed? I've watched every second of every game.

 

I really can't figure it out anymore.  We're doing the same thing over and over again and thinking the results will be different, the definition of insanity. 

 

I'm not a Harrold fan, but I thought he was okay in the beginning of the year...not so much the past few games though.


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#217 MadDog2020

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:06 PM

This is out of the fvcking park ridiculous now. I mean flat out idiocy. Why? I'm sick of this sh!t, is the coach accountable for anything that this idiocy is allowed to continue? So those fvcking morons Volchenkov and Harrold can stay in? WHY? WHAT IN THE GREEN fvck AM I MISSING?!!!!


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#218 gsnts725

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:14 PM

PDB's loyalty to his veterans is so annoying. Reminiscent of keeping Moose in net for all those fvcking games. Let the kid play and develop FFS.


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#219 jagknife

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:30 PM

I'm done with DeBoer, absolutely done with him.

 

Peter Harrold is an abysmal hockey player who would barely start in the AHL, let alone any NHL roster other than ours.

 

Anton Volchenkov is an immense liability on defense and is approaching Ken Klee levels of uselessness.

 

Yeah, keep them playing over Larsson. Makes complete sense.


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#220 SterioDesign

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:09 PM

If he was drafted in the 3rd round you'd be doing backflips.  This is his Y+3 draft year and he's already played 100 NHL games at a decent level?  It's not unfair to hope that, it is unfair to expect that, or to be massively disappointed if he's not what you think he should be.

 

i've never being massively disappointed of Larsson he's still young. All my comments are mostly pointing out that he may not come as good as some people here are saying he will.


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